This needs to be in the top 15 NOW so that everyone sees it.

nothing will be done. U.S. officials (and their concomitant corporate financiers) will get away scotfree. While the order-abiding military soldiers will pay the highest price for these crimes.

/\
Thats true on more levels than I could ever count.
Not only do they pay in terms of jail time, injury, or even death; they pay in terms of probably reliving what they took part in. Is it safe to assume that they will live with this on their conscious for the rest of their lives while those who ordered it will never even loose sleep over it?

The name of the Major General quoted in the summary is TAguba. Nice vid.

*sick to my stomach

*promote

Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Sunday, June 22nd, 2008 2:15am PDT - promote requested by eric3579.

Snowball's chance in hell that anything will be done about it.

What the hell is wrong with us?

Thats the nature of our righteous "Religious" movement against the Muslim people.

They are emerging with power now in their black gold, and we do not want them to destroy our economy.

Change will come and there is not a damn thing that can be done about it, except haiuchi "Mutually assured destruction"

Peccata patris filium per successione accipient.

Vote: thats all I can say, because the people have no real power, and there are to many of the Citizens in this country that care not for others. There are to many that think it is okay to torture another person guilty or not.

Another comment: And People wonder why they hate us so much... its because of this shit.

GO to Wikileaks and find the pictures for your self.

Really? Is this what "sickens" you after 100 million dead from communism? Not tied up and naked: dead. Starved, shot, buried. Erased from history.

On the other side of Cuba, Castro has executed well over 15,000 of "his" countrymen during the communist reign of terror. Not a peep from the American left.

Does the defective Muslim civilization have to be brought under the spotlight again? They treat their own more atrociously than the West has ever done.

If you hated America before this sift, nothing will have changed. The selective outrage here is curious at best and typical at worst.

Daniel Pearl would gladly trade places with any of these "victims".

Oh noes, communism! I don't care what other countries have done, QM. We are talking about the United States here. We are supposed to be better than that. We told the world that we wouldn't perform torture. And then, oh look, we did. Whoopsie!

Nothing justifies torture.

End of story.

^what does this video have to do with "100 million dead from communism",or the America left? Nothing at all.

>> ^quantumushroom:
Really? Is this what "sickens" you after 100 million dead from communism? Not tied up and naked: dead. Starved, shot, buried. Erased from history.
On the other side of Cuba, Castro has executed well over 15,000 of "his" countrymen during the communist reign of terror. Not a peep from the American left.
Does the defective Muslim civilization have to be brought under the spotlight again? They treat their own more atrociously than the West has ever done.
If you hated America before this sift, nothing will have changed. The selective outrage here is curious at best and typical at worst.
Daniel Pearl would gladly trade places with any of these "victims".


This topic of debate is not defending any atrocious historical event. No matter how bad their own system is, no matter how many died from Communist misuse of power, We (As civilized nations with morals) can do better than this. This looks like the Spanish Inquizition. It is entirely, on every level innapropriate to treat another human in the way these people were treated. Not to mention their possible (and likely) innocence.

The Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore. The Berlin Wall is down. The Cold War is over. America doesn't give a shit about Cuba.

Get your head out of your ass.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

QM has a bit of a point about the selective outrage. There are many countries that do - and have done - much worse. So why does the US get singled out for its failings abroad?

It's the fucking hypocrisy.

The US sets itself up as the last bastion of freedom and all that is right with the world. "They hate us for our freedom" wails Bush - without any thought to 30 years of destructive, brutal, CIA enforced realpolitik in the Middle East.

The US could use some good old fashioned self-loathing. Maybe Germany could give lessons.

The US is a good country. I'm glad I'm a citizen. It's not God's gift to the world - formed to bring democracy to the earth. Manifest destiny was not responsible for taking California from the Mexicans.

If we could get rid of this purple mountain's majesty of self-rightous, pious hubris - the world would be a better place.

I read a very interesting article in Harpers the other day called "Democracy and Deference", about how people relate to power in the US, it featured an anecdotal story about Vietnam veteran Jim Webb meeting Bush, Webb has a son fighting in Iraq, Bush asked him about him, Jim said he wanted to get him out of Iraq, Bush said that he didn't ask him about that but about his son.

What followed next was a big media outrage about how rude Jim Webb was to President Bush in the Whitehouse questioning his decisions about Iraq! You simply do not question the president. Unquestionable loyalty is more important then rational dissent.

It then posed the same example with Powell and his presentation to UN, where the statesman part of Powell lost out to the loyal Soldier. Powell later said that even though he had grave doubts about the evidence against Iraq, he still went ahead with the presentation because he was loyal to the President.

When did this type of thinking evolve? The President is not a King, he is an elected official accountable to the population. The White house is rented out by the American people to him.

The parallels are stark when you comparing the US and UK political process, the UK populace believes it has an inherent right to meddle in politics, whereas in the US its more about trusting someone else to do the right thing.

You ever watch Tony Blair giving a press conference? The audience is always full of well informed people who ask challenging questions, who make the PM sweat, who press if the question is dodged, the PM then apologizes (OMFG) and tries to clarify.

Compare that to the US media circus of PR, where questions are always soft balled and there is a silly air of jolly good fun with funny quips, the seriousness is lost. The questions are prescreened, weeding out challengers and encouraging stupid expressions of admiration along the lines of "All my heroes are cowboys" to which there is thunderous applause.

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

That is a pretty attention-grabbing thumbnail. Ouch.

Freedom? Think again. It is a convenient coin-phrase to keep you distracted from what is really going on.

Oh for christs sake!!!

This video is about the torture commited at the hands of American troops regardless of where the order was handed down from. It is NOT about any of the other thousands of atrocities that have been commited in this world. What, are we supposed to reference and rate every video on this subject to past incidents in the world!? Gee, this isnt quite as bad so lets disregard it, let alone the argument that we dont do it as harshly as the other guys so its ok!!!??? THIS video is about the torture that we have commited so thats what I/everyone else is responding to. Do rightwing pro-lifers raise thier voice in protest to the hundreds of thousands of babies killed or aborted in other countries besides the US, or do THEY limit their argument to just those evil American liberal pro-choicers?.

Sure Quantum you have a point. This does pale in comparison to other atrocities that have been commited around the world over time. The point is that we can't undo those acts, we can stop them from happening NOW.

Lastly, PLEASE stop with the "hate America" bullshit. That argument is one of the most obtuse arguments I have ever heard. I dont hate America, I hate some of the things we do. A parent doesnt hate their child outright, they hate some of the things they do and the way they act sometimes. Theres a BIG difference.


Torture is evil to the core. It needs to stop.

>> ^quantumushroom:
On the other side of Cuba, Castro has executed well over 15,000 of "his" countrymen during the communist reign of terror. Not a peep from the American left.
Does the defective Muslim civilization have to be brought under the spotlight again? They treat their own more atrociously than the West has ever done.

So if the defective Muslim civilization were jumping off a bridge, would you jump too?

Meaning is lost to qm with regard to information-it's a capacity issue, perhaps combined with some past trauma and steady diet....
Diagnosis?

Take the am radio out of your car, throw away your TV, and take a fucking vacation to some country besides your house.

typo in the tags: grhaib/ghraib

>> ^MrConrads:
Oh for christs sake!!!
This video is about the torture commited at the hands of American troops regardless of where the order was handed down from. It is NOT about any of the other thousands of atrocities that have been
...

The troops that did this might only be below average given that mistreatment should be expected without proper supervision. The troops here were actually instructed to villainize/torture the prisoners when their fears from 9/11 were somewhat fresh.

I don't think American leftists believe America is a good country. Of course they're going to look for the bad. That's their right (ha ha) and for the most part, the US doesn't censor our mistakes like, say, RED China.

"Nothing justifies torture," is an admirable position. Get this vital message out to the jihadists, along with "Nothing justifies homicide bombings" and "Nothing justifies 'honor' killings."

So if the defective Muslim civilization were jumping off a bridge, would you jump too?

Yes, but while wearing a bungee cord.

PS to choggie, please make with the "free energy" you claim is being suppressed. I suspect for you it's trucker pills washed down with 3 liters of Mountain Dew.

The directives to use torture probably went all the way up to Rumsfeld. We let this and the lying to get the US into Iraq, and yet we still haven't taken to the streets in outrage that we should impeach Bush. I'm confused. We need a good call back to the demonstrations of the 70's.

Humanity lost.

If Bush could apologize, I'd be utterly stunned. Mainly because he thinks he's on the side of righteousness, and history will view him as a magnificent and beneficent leader, so he sees nothing for which an apology is necessary. That is the gall of a dictator on his throne. I really hope Obama can change things. I am not entirely sure about it, but he cannot possibly be worse than Bush.

Oh, and you mentioned he's a President and not a King? Well, if were a King, he'd be on the downswing of a guillotine blade by now.

>> ^Farhad2000:
I read a very interesting article in Harpers the other day called "Democracy and Deference", about how people relate to power in the US, it featured an anecdotal story about Vietnam veteran Jim Webb meeting Bush, Webb has a son fighting in Iraq, Bush asked him about him, Jim said he wanted to get him out of Iraq, Bush said that he didn't ask him about that but about his son.
What followed next was a big media outrage about how rude Jim Webb was to President Bush in the Whitehouse questioning his decisions about Iraq! You simply do not question the president. Unquestionable loyalty is more important then rational dissent.
It then posed the same example with Powell and his presentation to UN, where the statesman part of Powell lost out to the loyal Soldier. Powell later said that even though he had grave doubts about the evidence against Iraq, he still went ahead with the presentation because he was loyal to the President.
When did this type of thinking evolve? The President is not a King, he is an elected official accountable to the population. The White house is rented out by the American people to him.
The parallels are stark when you comparing the US and UK political process, the UK populace believes it has an inherent right to meddle in politics, whereas in the US its more about trusting someone else to do the right thing.
You ever watch Tony Blair giving a press conference? The audience is always full of well informed people who ask challenging questions, who make the PM sweat, who press if the question is dodged, the PM then apologizes (OMFG) and tries to clarify.
Compare that to the US media circus of PR, where questions are always soft balled and there is a silly air of jolly good fun with funny quips, the seriousness is lost. The questions are prescreened, weeding out challengers and encouraging stupid expressions of admiration along the lines of "All my heroes are cowboys" to which there is thunderous applause.
Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

I have a friend who is from Basra, Iraq, and when I saw those pictures I imagined him being tortured. It was terrible to think that his countrymen are being treated in such a way. And I don't care if they're guilty or not. I wouldn't want to see Osama bin Laden treated that way, because America is not supposed to sink to that level. That is the key point in this argument; the American Dream does not involve despicable practices such as waterboarding, forced masturbation, standing for hours on end, attacks by dogs, sleep deprivation, unending noise pollution, or any other catastrophic treatment of detainees.

If we treated our prison inmates this way, they would sue the government and win, because they have rights as American citizens. So what kind of rights do non-citizens, even supposed "enemy combatants" have? Sure, they're not U.S. citizens, but aren't they humans, nonetheless? Isn't it a round world we live on? Didn't we make up these invisible borders long ago?

Nothing gives anybody the right to torture anybody. Not even the guise of democracy in action. If they hate us for our freedom, for our differences, then why are we starting to look like them?

While it has been made clear that the orders to torture came from the very top there is no excuse for the individuals carrying out the acts. Nazi soldiers were not excused after the war because they were "just following orders". If it weren't for individuals willing to hurt others there would be peace. I expect police officers to be arrested for kidnapping when the drug war ends as they should know the laws they enforce are wholly un-constitutional.
-Karl

Also one could argue that the individuals carrying out the acts are more to blame than the officials giving the orders since those officials did not actually hurt other individuals. I am a strong believer in freedom of individuals and the responsibility that comes with that.
-Karl

No, you cannot actively blame the individuals, because that is the story being pushed by the administration, that it was 'a few bad apples' when in actuality is was a system stemming from a lack of knowledge of the environment and no idea how to derive workable intelligence from a cell structure.

When going into this war the US Intelligence pushed forward the idea that Iraqis were religious zealots, liars and probably all inherently terrorists. This is why there was such a large pick up of individuals as prisoners, why there was so much torture conducted.

Also remember the kind of pressure the troops had on them, talk of fighting for freedom, remembering 9/11, you is with us or with the terrorists. Its hard to fight against that patriotic swell. There are countless stories of soldiers being being shunned because they spoke against the war on any kind of level.

"a few bad apples" is not at all how I characterized the situation. Every individual who hurt another is guilty. The ones who gave the orders are guilty for their part too(treason comes to mind). Still at the root of all wars and crimes are individuals choosing to hurt other individuals. If no one chooses to fight then there would be no violence no matter what the "people in charge" would like to order.

Another way to look at it: The people carrying out orders give of their own power to the ones giving the orders.
-Karl

Lesserfool,

I put it like that becasue it seemed like the real argument was getting deflected. I am fully aware and believe that the orders to do these things came from the highest levels of this administration.

QM: If you really believe that all leftists think that this country is bad then it sounds like there isnt much that can be said to convince you otherwise. For what its worth its not true. What if I said that I BELIEVED that ALL conservatives were racist torture hungry bigots? I can only assume that you would say "Hey, thats not true, I know thats not true so how can you possibly believe that!?" So can you understand the frustration of comments like that? It doesnt do any good AT ALL to make such comments. Sure, I bet there are some liberals who think America is a lost cause. I bet there are some conservatives who probably believe the same thing. Couldnt you argue that a conservative preacher who says that he thinks this country is going down moral sewer because of gays, porn, and whatever else is "hateing America" in the same way that you believe that a liberal does? I'm not trying to continue the he said she said crap, I'm simply trying to find some middle ground here.
Its the torture that is the evil and bad here along with those who would approve and use it, not the larger country as a whole. Those who would approve it dont speak for the constitution, bill of rights, or anything else this country trys to stand for.

The "bad apples" are merely sacrificial lambs that the American government are hoping will dissuade the investigations. This goes all the way to the top - George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney and quite a few others should, not only be indicted for a court marshal, but sent to Hague and tried for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Is it just me or do people not realize that America is at war?

I'm not talking about Iraqi occupation, I'm talking about an unnamed, faceless enemy. An enemy welcomed in their country with open arms, an enemy they give checks to if they lose their jobs, an enemy their doctors will treat if ill, an enemy that enjoys full rights under the law, an enemy that benefits from protection against discrimination.

An enemy that has total freedom of movement, boundless resources and does not march in phalanx.

Yes, the United States is perpetually at war. As such, martial measures are sometimes required.

I'm asking anyone who questions the USA's action: do you think your armed forces exist to harm you... or to protect you?

^ What.

Forced group masturbation doesn't protect my freedom, naked men stacked into a pyramid doesn't protect my freedom, electrocuting innocent iraqis doesn't protect my freedom, thousands of dead innocent iraqi civilians doesn't protect my fucking freedom!


are you kidding me!?