I'd just like to mention that i've read somewhere that the reason the teacher was suspended is because he disciplined (perhaps removed from the room?) a kid for saying that he didn't support gay people.

Agree or disagree, that's his right, and if that is true, the teacher is in the wrong. Next, we discipline kids for saying they don't support what... christianity, judaism, atheism?

Touchy subject, but the laws of most civilised countries allow people to say "i don't support gay people." It doesn't incite hate, it doesn't preach to others, it's just his opinion, as shit as that opinion may be.

If it's true. Source is not verified.

Edit: <sigh>
It appears people can't read a comment like this without immediately assuming the person is arguing in favour of anti-gay sentiments. This comment is not anti-gay, nor is it pro-anti-gay people. It's pro-being sensible and not giving anti-gay people ammunition in their ignorant mud slinging conquest.

*quality

Also, I'm very impressed with this student's candor and eloquence.

Boosting this quality contribution up in the Hot Listing - declared quality by JiggaJonson.

>> ^dannym3141:

I'd just like to mention that i've read somewhere that the reason the teacher was suspended is because he disciplined (perhaps removed from the room?) a kid for saying that he didn't support gay people.
Agree or disagree, that's his right, and if that is true, the teacher is in the wrong. Next, we discipline kids for saying they don't support what... christianity, judaism, atheism?
Touchy subject, but the laws of most civilised countries allow people to say "i don't support gay people." It doesn't incite hate, it doesn't preach to others, it's just his opinion, as shit as that opinion may be.
If it's true. Source is not verified.


Imagine of a student had said "I don't support black people and I don't think that black people should have the same rights as everyone else". He would have been removed, suspended, disciplined and publicly ridiculed. It would have been a massive scandal.

What a great statement. That kid has a promising future in something waiting for him.

Link to Original Story
First of all its a school, I have never in my life known schools to be a place where you can say whatever you want. Kids usually got in trouble for saying anything slightly crude or that could be construed as being disrespectful. Hell, one time I was waiting in line to leave the lunch room for recess when I sneezed. It was 'determined' I did this on purpose to interrupt the teacher that was telling us the same shit she always told us when we left the lunch room. I ended up having to spend recess sitting in the dirt facing a chain link fence, where some joyless shrew would yell at you if you, spoke, moved, picked at the grass, or looked in the direction of the playing kids.

So in the continuum of shit teachers and administrators get butt-hurt about, some intolerant bigoted kids spouting their dumbass beliefs and then getting in trouble doesn't even move the needle on my outrage meter. Maybe if I thought for a second this was the most liberal school when it came to free speech I'd buy their argument for a day. But seeing as they bitch about the teacher violating the student's free speech rights in one breath and then bitch about the teacher wearing an anti-gay bullying shirt in the next I'm inclined to believe they're full of shit.

Was it completely fair for the teacher to remove the offending student from the class room for his intolerant views and not the others? Probably not, but it doesn't make it okay for a student to sit there and say what kinds of people he hates.

@Hive13 well, that's the rub of free speech isn't it? If he'd been against the wall for saying "i don't support black people", then does he really have free speech? In this case, people who are anti-gay will be fuelled by what's happened and ask, "why is the gay guy allowed to express himself freely and i'm not?"

I didn't even think that it was illegal to express personal xenophobic opinions in a matter of fact and calm manner.

Like i said, touchy subject. I'm sure i'll be chastised before the comments go much further even though i've not even stated my opinion yet, and that would prove one thing that is important in a subject like this - people react quickly and loosely to this kind of subject. Tempers flare and each side feels incredibly strongly, and just about the worst thing you can do is treat your ignorant opponent unfairly. If anything you give them more respect.

@dannym3141 "well, that's the rub of free speech isn't it?"

No one is taking away the boy's right to free speech. But there will always be consequences for speech. Surely you understand that I can't threaten someone and expect the first amendment to shield me from any accountability for what I'd said.

Also, when you say "I'm sure i'll be chastised before the comments go much further even though i've not even stated my opinion yet" I'm not really sure what you mean. Are you saying that a statement like "Agree or disagree, that's his right, and if that is true, the teacher is in the wrong." from your first post isn't a reflection of your opinion??? I'm beginning to doubt you know what you're talking about.

@JiggaJonson absolutely, i've not said anything to reflect my opinion on the subject here (and thanks for proving what i said), but if you think that the statement you quoted makes me look like i agree with the anti-gay kid, what do you think of the statement "just about the worst thing you can do is treat your ignorant opponent unfairly". I explicitly called him ignorant, so either you've skipped over that bit, or you're out and out looking to mislead other people reading these comments.

Trust me, you're gonna be very hard pressed to find someone who subscribes more to the belief that "do whatever you need to do to be happy in your life, just don't hurt others" than me.

I don't know anything about your ammendments, but i can say that threatening someone is different from saying that you don't support them or dislike them. If you said "i dislike <x> people", that's very different from saying "i am going to punch <x> people".

If you don't think i know what i'm talking about, /shrug, fair enough. All i've done is say that i think you should be extra careful when punishing people for being "anti-" anything, because tempers flare very fast, and you can end up accidentally looking bad. I don't know how i can be wrong in saying that, but i respect your right to say that i am!

@dannym3141 I follow you and basically agree. Free speech is important to protect whether the speech itself is popular or not. And it certainly isn't "illegal" to express any personal opinions, as backward or bigoted as they may be; whether expressed in a calm way or even full of ranting vitriol -- Fred Phelps' bunch comes to mind.

That being said, this is a school. The teacher doesn't have the power to arrest anyone, and they have to make quick disciplinary decisions about what things promote the best learning environment for everyone in the room. Students don't have free speech in a way equivalent to society at large by any stretch of the imagination: most schools have a dress code that forbids clothing with "offensive" words or ideas, and a student in any school is highly likely to be A) kicked out of class or B) suspended if they start including the word "fuck" in their speech as would be standard in any R-rated movie.

I think a teacher needs to have some leeway to make decisions about things in real time, and to be able to remove a disruptive student from the classroom if necessary. If a student says that they don't support black people, muslims, gay people, or whatever, it doesn't really matter if they made the statement in a calm and articulate way; what is important is that it is likely to create a disturbance that disrupts the learning environment for everyone else. Having a teacher boot them out of a class for making such a statement isn't necessarily a violation of their free speech rights.

@MilkmanDan fair comment, it could have caused a disruption. I suppose it depends how it happened - if he's having a discussion in the class and someone asks his opinion, that's gonna be different from him just announcing it at random.

*dead

This video has been declared non-functional; embed code must be fixed within 2 days or it will be sent to the dead pool - declared dead by blankfist.

*dead indeed
fuck you daily press & argus

here we go; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC5veY34sIY
or here in shorter form; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY9TfdGOLjw

Invocations (dead) cannot be called by shole because shole is not privileged - sorry.

@dannym3141

Whoa don't jump to conclusions there buddy, I've not even stated my opinion yet and here you are chastising me and saying that I proved your point. You see, just like you can, I can ramble on and on seeming to express my opinion and yet not actually purport any particular view that I hold, I think it's presumptuous of you to think that what I said in my previous comments proved your point when that wasn't even my opinion at all.

Isn't it obvious that I didn't even state my opinion and I'm definitely not being a totally dickhead? If not, I hope I've made that clear here.

*dead

Only published or personal queue videos may be flagged dead - ignoring dead request by GDGD.

well i found a few places that have a working version of this video but i dont have a high enough rank to post a embeded from a site the sift isnt cool with.

http://www.iviewtube.com/videos/172474/gay-student-graeme-taylor-defends-suspended-teacher-jay-mcdowell

@JiggaJonson - i didn't know you were the opinion police, demanding an immediate opinion from every single person posting on a video. As i said before, deliberately trying to mislead people or ignorant, i'm leaning towards ignorant. I'm sure you think you scored a major victory, but ignorance is bliss.

I don't think you noticed that i did express my opinion, but - as i said - i did not express my opinion ON THIS MATTER (ie. no opinion stated on homophobia, opinion stated on the row over homophobia). So not only did you prove my point, completely ignore huge chunks of my posts, but you even jumped into an attack based on a false premise.

Either a poor troll attempt, or i'm gonna have to give you 1/10 for reading comprehension.

@dannym3141

"I'd just like to mention that i've read somewhere that the reason the teacher was suspended is because he disciplined (perhaps removed from the room?) a kid for saying that he didn't support gay people.Agree or disagree, that's his right, and if that is true, the teacher is in the wrong. Next, we discipline kids for saying they don't support what... christianity, judaism, atheism? Touchy subject, but the laws of most civilised countries allow people to say "i don't support gay people." It doesn't incite hate, it doesn't preach to others, it's just his opinion, as shit as that opinion may be. If it's true. Source is not verified. well, that's the rub of free speech isn't it? If he'd been against the wall for saying "i don't support black people", then does he really have free speech? In this case, people who are anti-gay will be fuelled by what's happened and ask, "why is the gay guy allowed to express himself freely and i'm not?" I didn't even think that it was illegal to express personal xenophobic opinions in a matter of fact and calm manner.Like i said, touchy subject. I'm sure i'll be chastised before the comments go much further even though i've not even stated my opinion yet,"

^no opinions contained within

And much like the point you're arguing, (if you haven't caught on yet) I'm just pointing out that you can't say something then try to skip out on any associated responsibility associated with what you said. The kid made a remark disparaging an entire sexual orientation of people. I think the teacher was in the right to remove him from class because in spite of my strong support of free speech I dont think his was violated in any way.

The student can have those opinions but students, generally speaking, are part of a captive audience (they have to be there) and different rules apply. If these two kids were out in public the people who strongly disagreed could simply walk away. But being forced to sit through someone else talking about how your lifestyle isn't "right" and how they don't agree with it is not something another person should be forced to do. So in this instance yes, the teacher was in the right IMHO.

As far as you're idiotic bullshit: You can't ramble on and then when people respond to what you're saying, reply with "Well I haven't even stated my opinion yet!!!" If that was practical, how could you ever take what another person said at face value if they could simply follow up with "Well I haven't even stated my opinion yet!!!"

Well wait, I take that back, you CAN do that of course (free speech and all right?) but of course, you'll have to take the consequences of those statements. One being, that I've formed an opinion about the content of your character *slaps danny in the face with a large trout* you sir are a pretentious jackass.

@JiggaJonson i love the way you've gone from reading my first comment to attacking me in any way you can, forcing me to defend myself, and then at the end going "because you defended yourself, you're a pretentious jackass".

At any point have you taken a quick glance at yourself?

I mean, where did we come from? I suggested that the issue may not be completely cut and dry, and that people's tempers flare easily. Cut forward 5 posts of you attack me and me defending myself, you're calling me a pretentious jackass. It's incredible.

@dannym3141 "that's his right, and if that is true, the teacher is in the wrong." again from your first comment, is not simply stating that the issue isn't cut-and-dry. You're making a fucking declaration there and you have the audacity to say that you haven't stated an opinion.

siftbot please delete this comment<<< hit wrong button

Awarding GDGD with one Power Point for fixing this video's dead embed code.