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Yawn...sorry this guy doesn't have a spine, he's just following the rest the the fringe left.
Any political figure who stands up infront of a camera and spouts the same old Bush-hating rhetoric is neither brave or original. Still if he wants to get out and protest, thats fine with me.

But I'm going to let you all in on a little secret here. Going to war in Iraq was not about WMD's. It never was. It's about planting Democracy in the Middle East and ultimately being in a strategic position to confront Iran. But thanks to people like this, we're all prisoners in Plato's cave and we're just chasing the shadows but eventually we'll have to turn our heads towards the light and see things for what they really are.

I could continue, but then I look at my audience here and consider my argument fallen on deaf ears.

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Victim of what?

All I see are victims of an ideology that is bent in one direction. "Hate Bush" Thats it.

Anderson wants to tell all of us about the evil, oppressive and inhumane Bush administration that will go down in history as one of the worst we will ever have to endure. Something tells me he's going to tell us about the 4.7% unemployment, or the record tax revenues, or the throngs of people who are streeming over the border to be a part of this evil, oppressive and inhumane country.

All I see is a group of people who have gathered together to revel in their hatred and to tell you how bad things are in this world. God forbid they ever stand for anything positive.

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snake, you ARE my hero, i love your posts and your point of view. thanks from a lowly nonranking member

Snake, it's like you have a man-at-arms now or something.

Thanks, gsmiley2. I appreciate it.

Well said Snake.
If you were a video clip I'd upvote you. Hurrah!

Y'know, it occurred to me yesterday that you never EVER hear a conservative say "I should just sit on my laurels, shut up and be happy with the amount of profit I make."
Liberals just happen to think we should also strive to do better socially, not just economically. It doesn't mean "Bush-hating" or "hating America first" (two signs of a real intelligent debator), it just means expecting us to live up to the expectations of our Constitution, not simply compare ourselves to the rest of the world.
I can't think of anything more "positive" than that, Wumpus.

"But I'm going to let you all in on a little secret here. Going to war in Iraq was not about WMD's. It never was. It's about planting Democracy in the Middle East and ultimately being in a strategic position to confront Iran."
I missed that the first time around. Funny stuff. When Clinton was less-than-truthful about his zipper, it was perjury. What would you call obfuscation on a global scale? With thousands upon thousands dead?
If you think knocking over Iran's longtime foe and replacing it with sectarian chaos puts us in a "strategic position to confront Iran", then...well, let's just say you'd suck at Risk.
If this really is a global struggle on the level of WWII (as the President and the Sec. of Defense have started spinning it)...where's the draft? War bonds? Alliances with the rest of world?
Even the Republicans in Congress are running away from this colossally stupid "strategy". Guess they're Bush-bashers and hate America first, too - eh?

Wumpus wrote: "But I'm going to let you all in on a little secret here. Going to war in Iraq was not about WMD's. It never was. It's about planting Democracy in the Middle East and ultimately being in a strategic position to confront Iran."

If that was the goal all along then it should have been presented as such. What do you think the whole world's complaining about when you hear the phrase, "a war started on false pretenses"?

Wumpus continued, "But thanks to people like this, we're all prisoners in Plato's cave and we're just chasing the shadows but eventually we'll have to turn our heads towards the light and see things for what they really are."

By your own analogy - or Plato's, I suppose - we're just chasing the shadows. Hey, we completely agree!

We're chasing shadows in Iraq. Those creating the shadows aren't in Iraq - they never were. They're in places like Afghanistan and the mountains of Pakistan.

This administration is batting at shadows and guess what? America is paying for it. You (presuming you're an American) and I are paying for it with money. We're paying for it with *lots* of money.

We're also paying with the social capital that America spent generations building.

We've paying with ethical capital, too. Abu Graib. Alleged torture jails in other countries. When America uses torture, we've lost the ethical high ground.

Finally, we're paying with lives. Not just the thousands upon thousands of Americans, but the Iraqis. The Afghanis. The other soldiers. The hundreds of thousands who've been wounded. Would you like to go through life without your eyes? Missing a leg or two? Not me.

They say you have to choose your battles. The battle came from Afghanistan and we chose Iraq.

We chose wrong.

actually, i posted the speech two days ago, it's very good.
http://www.videosift.com/story.php?id=9459

Finally, an intelligent response.

"Liberals just happen to think we should also strive to do better socially, not just economically. It doesn't mean "Bush-hating" or "hating America first" (two signs of a real intelligent debator), it just means expecting us to live up to the expectations of our Constitution, not simply compare ourselves to the rest of the world."

What part of this speech was about doing better socially?

The liberal adgenda is higher taxes, unrestricted abortion, gay marrige, the erosion of personal stanards, political correctness and appesement of those who would attack us. But they can't get up in front of a crowd and say it. There was a democratic political ad posted by you two weeks ago about "A new direction for america." The problem with the ad is that it won't tell you what that direction is. Every fundraising speech they give, Howard Dean will tell you that they have a "new comprehensive plan" for _-insert issue here-_ but they won't tell you what that plan is. They'll toss out a few vague generalities at leave it at that.

But this speech doesn't talk about any of that. The title says it all. It's an "Anti-Bush" protest. They all get together and talk about how much we hate Bush, how much we hate America and for all of his chanting about the truth, I will submit to you that Rocky Anderson would not know the truth if it landed on his head. More importantly in his entire speech, Anderson does not offer a single solution, he has no answers, he doesn't know how to protect America from another attack and he's not going to tell you what he is going to do to fix things. When he looks out over the global-political landscape, he sees Bush's America as the enemy, as the oppressor. He doesn't want to talk about the groups and countries who have stated as their goal to see America torn down and destroyed; paging Islamic Fascist.

As the city's mayor, his term is up, once he's done, he's out. He is not staking anything on this protest, he's not risking his job. This man does not have the spine that you think he does.

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I wish I could return the compliment, Wumpus, but you're just reciting the old "Democrats have no plan" talking points that talk radio's drilled into your skull. (The Michael Weiner-Savage "islamofascism" misnomer is also a dead giveaway.) It has no basis in truth, and frankly, it's sounds rather desperate on the part of the GOP - which is why they're cranking up the fear factor (terrorism! terrorism!) now that the campaign season's officially started.
To respond to your other "point", that tape is from a rally, not a policy meeting. You don't talk about those things there any more than the Religious Right would at those ridiculous "Justice Sunday" rallies they've had. And this:
"The liberal adgenda is higher taxes, unrestricted abortion, gay marrige, the erosion of personal stanards, political correctness and appesement of those who would attack us."
...was just hilarious. Thanks. And you accuse us of having nothing positive to say.

"you're just reciting the old "Democrats have no plan" talking points that talk radio's drilled into your skull."

Fine, but if you can tell me what the Democrats plan is in moderate detail, I will shake your hand and consider you an intellectually honest person. Because I have no idea what it is.

"it's sounds rather desperate on the part of the GOP - which is why they're cranking up the fear factor (terrorism! terrorism!) now that the campaign season's officially started."

So are you telling me that there is no terrorist threat from the Muslim world, or that it's simply overrated?

" "The liberal adgenda is higher taxes, unrestricted abortion, gay marrige, the erosion of personal stanards, political correctness and appesement of those who would attack us."

...was just hilarious. Thanks. And you accuse us of having nothing positive to say."

Look, if it's not, then tell me what it is...prove me wrong.

Well Said Snake, Great job posting this and for standing up for your beliefs. We need more people like you! :-)

Okay: let's trying to be "honest" about all of this:

Bush screwed the pooch by invading Iraq. No arguement there. He would have been better off riding the wave of anger after 9-11 and simply making the entire mid-east a sheet of black glass. We could be debating the ethnic morals of wasting an entire culture after they were gone right now instead of this current fight.

I seem to recall most of the Democrats bitching about what Bush is doing voted to do it and continue to vote to fund it. They also voted for it when Clinton made a half-assed attempt in 1998, and called it a good idea (so did the Republicans).

Bush lied to the American people. Fact. So did Clinton. Fact. Oddly enough, both of them (along with all their political buddies on BOTH sides) lied about the same thing . . . Iraq and weapons of mass destruction.

Bush means to kill anyone threatening the US, fair or foul. Shame Clinton and Bush's father didn't have the same resolve. Then we could argue about Bush's tax cuts because all the terrorists would be dead or afraid of us and hiding.

Our soldiers are dying in a far away land over something that isn't really a threat to us anymore. Same arguement that people made to keep us out of WW II. It took Pearl Harbor to get us into THAT one, and we lost a lot more troops in that war under the great Democrat leader Roosevelt (no sarcasm: he was a great man, like Kennedy). Too bad more Democrats don't follow their fine example. In those days, the Democrats knew the stakes and were willing to pay the price.

Bush is stomping on freedoms and liberties of Americans. True. So did Roosevelt by the internment camps. So did Lincoln by fighting a war clearly against the Constitution.

Bush is stomping on the rights of our extra-national enemies we hold in prisons around the world. You betcha! I don't remember 19 terrorists reading anyone else their rights on 9-11. And since they AREN'T Americans . . . when did they get rights like us?

Are we in a bad spot right now? Bet your ass we are. Same when the Atlantic War was fought in early 1942 that Roosevelt covered up (research the Tenth Fleet actions to find out about that one), when we couldn't win a battle under McClellan in the Civil War (great doctoring of news releases, though), and when Carter had us so weak on defense in the 1970's that a Soviet victory in the Cold War seemed inevitable. Thankfully, both of those past Presidents (one Democrat and one Republican) knew enough to stick to the fight because it was all that they had left to do, and Carter got the floor mopped with his political corpse by Reagan.

I think that, baring some great shift in common sense, history will bear this President out as well. History tells us that the others were great for doing the same thing.

PS: A mojority elected Bush and the Republicans in 2004. I guess we are doing what the majority wants. Like it or not: by your rules, Bush wins that arguement. (Please don't rehash 2000: it's a dead horse)

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