*oh I do so want to link this to blankfist!

Self promoting this video and sending it back into the queue for one more try; last queued Thursday, May 3rd, 2012 9:03am PDT - promote requested by original submitter bareboards2.

Maybe, like, somebody should, like, take like a public speaking course.

didn't watch the vid, didn't really care... the only thing that caught my interest was that calling women "girls" is blatant sexism... that made me laugh

primarily because more women i know refer to themselves in different ways as "girls" than guys refer to them

is this a new "n word"? lol

You are only proving my point that we live in a blatantly sexist world.

It is one of the saddest things in my life that more than 40 years after we as women (and enlightened men) started having the conversation about how denigrating it is for full grown women to be referred as girls -- and to simper coyly and call ourselves girls -- that it is even worse now than it ever was.

And here you show up, making fun of a serious topic as if you have the least notion of what the heck you are talking about.

How often do you hear males over age 17-19 as being referred to as "boys"?

Take a moment as you move through the world and give it some attention. Women are girls, men are guys or men or dudes. See how often it happens that women are called ONLY girls. Maybe consider changing your language and use the word "woman" once in a while and see how your world view shifts.

That is, if you are open to learning something. If you have an open mind. If you don't think that you have achieved perfection in your thinking process and know absolutely everything there is to know is this vast world.

If you tell me that you routinely refer to grown men as "boys" and I'll back off on you personally. Some people do. That's great, I have no beef with them.

But if you aren't "equal" in your use of language, then yes, you and your female friends are blatantly sexist, and unconsciously so.

I first had this conversation in 1974. At that time, it wasn't uncommon to call a black man a boy -- getting rarer, but it wasn't uncommon. Yet here we are, calling grown women "girls."

Sad, sad, sad, sad.

And you "lol."

Even sadder.

The video, by the way, has a great payoff at the end of a rambling conversation.

By the way, I just looked up and saw #28 on the list of videos expiring soon. "Anal Cunt 'I respect your feelings as Woman.' " Another thing that saddens me. Coon, nigger, spook, jiggabo -- all verboten. But Cunt? Used now more than ever.

Saddens me.






>> ^packo:

didn't watch the vid, didn't really care... the only thing that caught my interest was that calling women "girls" is blatant sexism... that made me laugh
primarily because more women i know refer to themselves in different ways as "girls" than guys refer to them
is this a new "n word"? lol

When I was in college, I would hang out with "my boys". A close buddy would be called "my boy". A popular song in my younger days was "The boys are back in town".

The women I know refer to themselves as girls do so not because they see themselves in a subservient position, but because they simply want to feel younger. I don't see anything sexist about that.

Even if it was sexist, it isn't ironic. There have been many feminists who were/are racists, and many people who fight racism who are/have been sexist. They are two completely different concepts, and one does not imply or exclude the other.

Moving this video to bareboards2's personal queue. It failed to receive enough votes to get sifted up to the front page within 2 days.

Here's another example of a use of the word "boy" in a powerful way...

The Old Boys Club.

You don't hear that phrase much anymore, what with women breaking through the glass ceiling and all men's clubs on the wane. It is a phrase I grew up with, though. The most powerful men gathering together, helping each other get more powerful and wealthy. And they call themselves "boys."

And women call themselves girls in order to feel younger? I mean, talk about undercutting yourself.

I'll say the same thing to you, longde. Just pay attention in the next little while. Try only using the word "woman" instead of "girl." When you hear the word "man" substitute "boy" and see how that feels.

Next time a white man references a black man, substitute the word "boy" and see how that sits with you.

Then we'll talk irony. And how language can be used in subtle and not-subtle ways to create 'isms.

This isn't intentional. It is unconscious. And these hipster boys are clueless as they sit and criticize two young women for being unconsciously racist.


>> ^longde:

When I was in college, I would hang out with "my boys". A close buddy would be called "my boy". A popular song in my younger days was "The boys are back in town".
The women I know refer to themselves as girls do so not because they see themselves in a subservient position, but because they simply want to feel younger. I don't see anything sexist about that.
Even if it was sexist, it isn't ironic. There have been many feminists who were/are racists, and many people who fight racism who are/have been sexist. They are two completely different concepts, and one does not imply or exclude the other.

*beg because I have one power point that will be wasted if I don't use it now.

Plus it annoys the hell out of me that I am still having this same fricking fracking conversation after FORTY YEARS. I mean, SAME EXACT CONVERSATION.

"Women call themselves girls so it is okay."

No, it is not. It is horrifying that they undercut themselves. It was horrifying 40 years ago when 80 year old women would simper and and giggle when men would call them girls. That is not empowering, it is infantilizing.

Plus, the payoff on this vid is GREAT. What the cop says. It is PERFECT.

Sending this video to Beggar's Canyon to plea for a little attention - beg requested by original submitter bareboards2.

*For the great one-liner at the end.... for cop-haters and cop-lovers alike.

Sending this video to Beggar's Canyon to plea for a little attention - beg requested by original submitter bareboards2.

>> ^bareboards2:

How often do you hear males over age 17-19 as being referred to as "boys"?>> ^packo:
didn't watch the vid, didn't really care... the only thing that caught my interest was that calling women "girls" is blatant sexism... that made me laugh
primarily because more women i know refer to themselves in different ways as "girls" than guys refer to them
is this a new "n word"? lol



All the Fucking Time. Yeah we live in a sexist world. Being rude to someone doesn't mean you're sexist, and it isn't a sexist term. I'm rude to lots of people, doesn't have anything to do with what age, sex, or color they are. It's just that they're a fucking disgusting human being that's breathing around me and I hate them DEAD.

Quit making shit up to fight against when there's real battles you could be fighting. Get the girls some equal pay, that's something worthwhile.

@Yogi

I have a pop-up thing on my computer when I get an email. I saw "Yogi left a comment on your video." I thought to myself -- oh, he's gone all batshit stupid crazy over my comments about language and women.

Sure enough, two seconds later "a comment has been left on your hipster video."

I feel pleased with myself. I am getting to know my Sifters and their personalities.

[edit] thanks for voting for the vid, yogi. I do love the payoff line at the end!

>> ^bareboards2:

@Yogi
I have a pop-up thing on my computer when I get an email. I saw "Yogi left a comment on your video." I thought to myself -- oh, he's gone all batshit stupid crazy over my comments about language and women.
Sure enough, two seconds later "a comment has been left on your hipster video."
I feel pleased with myself. I am getting to know my Sifters and their personalities.
[edit] thanks for voting for the vid, yogi. I do love the payoff line at the end!


The thing that bothers me is you actually think you're right, and you're being condescending as shit about it while telling people "You shouldn't be condescending towards people."

Fuck that, you're wrong and you should know it. WRONG! Bad bareboards!

Have you spent more than 2 minutes thinking about this topic, dear @Yogi?

Have you tried the little mental exercises that I suggested?

I know the answer is no.

So yeah. I am right. Because I --- HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT THIS. For a long time. Changed my thinking about certain things as I gathered more information and came up with a reasoned argument that I have tested over the years. There aren't any holes in my logic or my conclusions. I know, because I have long since fixed any holes in my logic and my conclusions.

So yeah. I am bad. In the best sense of the word. Like Shaft is bad, baby.

I'm so bad, I'm good.

>> ^bareboards2:

Have you spent more than 2 minutes thinking about this topic, dear @Yogi?
Have you tried the little mental exercises that I suggested?
I know the answer is no.
So yeah. I am right. Because I --- HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT THIS. For a long time. Changed my thinking about certain things as I gathered more information and came up with a reasoned argument that I have tested over the years. There aren't any holes in my logic or my conclusions. I know, because I have long since fixed any holes in my logic and my conclusions.
So yeah. I am bad. In the best sense of the word. Like Shaft is bad, baby.
I'm so bad, I'm good.


You're never right Boy.

Now that is just a logical fallacy, girl. I am 58 years old, Phi Beta Kappa, Summa Cum Laude graduate of UCLA with a major in economics. Passed the CPA exam the first time (4% do that, most with the minimum passing grade -- I did much better than minimum passing.)

Granted, I'm not as smart as I used to be -- getting older SUCKS -- but still. I get by.

In any case, don't you think that just maybe, just once, I might have been right? Sometime in 58 years?

But then, you aren't talking logic, are you? Unlike me, with my pearlescent gem that I have thought about and polished and honed over all these long years.

I'm baaaaaaaad.

>> ^Yogi:


You're never right Boy.

Context matters.

Calling a grown woman "girl" at the workplace is probably out of line. Calling a few racist, drunk hipsters "girls" seems rather appropriate. If you are immature enough to shout racist remarks at strangers, you are immature enough to be justifiably called "girl". Is there such a thing as a mature hipster? I'm inclined to say no.

I voted for the video because I enjoyed it but your trolling makes me want to vote against. Worse still, you've made me agree with @Yogi.

As for knowing Sifters and their personalities, try this... As you read the responses attacking your statements, you're dismissing them as the opinions of sexist men (boys?), the products of a blatantly sexist world. You might also be thinking that if you've done or said anything wrong, it's because you're damaged from decades of sexism and thus your mistakes are our fault anyway.

How'd I do?

>> ^xxovercastxx:

Context matters.
Calling a grown woman "girl" at the workplace is probably out of line. Calling a few racist, drunk hipsters "girls" seems rather appropriate. If you are immature enough to shout racist remarks at strangers, you are immature enough to be justifiably called "girl". Is there such a thing as a mature hipster? I'm inclined to say no.
I voted for the video because I enjoyed it but your trolling makes me want to vote against. Worse still, you've made me agree with @Yogi.
As for knowing Sifters and their personalities, try this... As you read the responses attacking your statements, you're dismissing them as the opinions of sexist men (boys?), the products of a blatantly sexist world. You might also be thinking that if you've done or said anything wrong, it's because you're damaged from decades of sexism and thus your mistakes are our fault anyway.
How'd I do?


I'd upvote this twice if I could.

I'm guessing that 70 or 80% of my posts on the sift include the words "Context matters". For the record, my wife, who is an awesome, strong, independent woman who is one of the most senior people in her company, refers to herself and her friends as the "girls"*. @bareboards2, if you told her that she's "undercutting herself", she would laugh and tell you she does not need you to fight her battles for her. It's just a colloquialism.

In a totally different context, she will often refer to a young person who does something stupid as a "silly boy/girl". It's not sexist, it's meant as a remark on their maturity. The term perfectly describes these stupid women.

Even racism has context. Ask Reginald D Hunter. Calling someone a "drunk paddy bastard" is a racist slur against the Irish (not that anyone ever seems to care), but from the context here, it's clear it's meant affectionately.

Again, context.

* oh and me and my friends are "you and the boys/lads/muppets" depending on how much trouble I'm in.

One of the things that I dislike the most about the Sift are the numerous times that words and intentions are put into my mouth that are utterly absent in what I actually say.

I have repeatedly said "unconscious" sexism. And I have applied that phrase to both men and women.

But suddenly I am being painted as some hysteric who is lashing out at the big bad men who have hurt me so bad by their big bad sexism.

This entire culture is sexist. Anyone who has spent more than five minutes looking around them will agree with that statement.

If that feels like an assault to you, rather than a statement of fact, I would ask you to look inside and ask yourself why you are so defensive about a statement of fact.

I'll repeat what I said before -- do you really think you know absolutely everything about everything and have nothing to learn? Spend one day -- one day -- listening to how often women are called girls. Substitute the word "woman" if she is more than 18 years old, and see how that shifts your internal landscape. Spend one day -- one day -- substituting the word "boy" every time you hear the word "man" and see if it doesn't squeege you out.

You can call this trolling if you want to. I call it my little attempt at education.

I also know that it is pretty fruitless. Like I said before, I first started having this conversation FORTY YEARS AGO, and after some headway in early days, it is now worse than ever.

I am grateful for the strides women have made in the past sixty years. I am aware that, although there may be cultures where women have been heads of state (India, Pakistan) where America can't quite bring herself to do it -- still and all, American women have many more rights than those other cultures.

I am grateful that young women today are so blase about their own sense of equality that they blithely minimize themselves with their language. They don't know what it was like forty years ago -- there were authors and authoresses when I was growing up. Poets and Poetesses. Now there are authors and poets. That is so cool, I can't hardly stand it.


>> ^xxovercastxx:

Context matters.
Calling a grown woman "girl" at the workplace is probably out of line. Calling a few racist, drunk hipsters "girls" seems rather appropriate. If you are immature enough to shout racist remarks at strangers, you are immature enough to be justifiably called "girl". Is there such a thing as a mature hipster? I'm inclined to say no.
I voted for the video because I enjoyed it but your trolling makes me want to vote against. Worse still, you've made me agree with @Yogi.
As for knowing Sifters and their personalities, try this... As you read the responses attacking your statements, you're dismissing them as the opinions of sexist men (boys?), the products of a blatantly sexist world. You might also be thinking that if you've done or said anything wrong, it's because you're damaged from decades of sexism and thus your mistakes are our fault anyway.
How'd I do?

@ChaosEngine, you are absolutely right. Context does matter.

I haven't gone into another aspect of my (much thought about) logic around this language issue -- although I did allude to it above -- but it is indeed about context.

I have no problem with the word girl being applied to grown women IF IF IF in the same CONTEXT, you would use the word boy for a grown man.

That is why your wife calls her women friends girls -- just like @longde called his friends boys. Same context.

My personal internal test for whether it is (unconsciously) sexist or not to call a grown woman a girl is to change the gender and ask myself -- if this were a man, would I call this grown man a boy under the same circumstances. If the answer is yes, then hey, go for it. CONTEXT does matter. I am with you 100%.

But I'll say the same thing to you -- go through one day doing that. Change the gender. When you hear "man", change to "boy" and see if that doesn't feel WRONG to you. When you hear "girl", change to "woman" and see if your internal landscape doesn't shift the tiniest bit.

Thank you for the first respectful response I have gotten to my point here. I really really appreciate it.

I also would be interested in hearing your wife's response to all my posts. That would be fascinating.

@bareboards2

One of the things that I dislike the most about the Sift are the numerous times that words and intentions are put into my mouth that are utterly absent in what I actually say.
I have repeatedly said "unconscious" sexism. And I have applied that phrase to both men and women.
But suddenly I am being painted as some hysteric who is lashing out at the big bad men who have hurt me so bad by their big bad sexism.

This entire culture is sexist. Anyone who has spent more than five minutes looking around them will agree with that statement. [...] Spend one day -- one day -- listening to how often women are called girls. Substitute the word "woman" if she is more than 18 years old, and see how that shifts your internal landscape. Spend one day -- one day -- substituting the word "boy" every time you hear the word "man" and see if it doesn't squeege you out.

You can call this trolling if you want to. I call it my little attempt at education.

@xxovercastxx, I just went through this with another sifter through PM, not public.

Tone of voice on the internet is provided by the reader. If you hear an hysterical voice in your head when you read my words, rather than a rational one, then I urge you to go back and re-read what I write. I had to say that three times to this one particular sifter, who increasingly accused me of saying things I didn't say, and I just kept saying -- I didn't say that. Go re-read what I actually wrote with a different tone of voice in your head. He finally got it, thank god.

I find it interesting that I have been accused of many things that I haven't actually said, but that doesn't strike you as unfair. I'm the one at fault. Still. Interesting. Hmmmm..... whatever could that mean?

Have I lost my shit in the past? Sure. Who hasn't around here? As that survey proved, this is a predominantly male environment and it took me awhile to understand that. That if I "lose my shit" it is a woman going all hysterical. So I have learned not to lose my shit anymore. But I am still accused of doing so.

As you say, I "earned" this reputation -- fairly in some cases, unfairly in others. All I can do is move forward and continue to be rational in the moment. I can't change past perceptions.

And if you read my response to chaosengine, you will see that I agree with you that context matters.

And thanks for the comic book education. That is extremely cool. I mean, like, EXTREMELY COOL.

@bareboards2

Tone of voice on the internet is provided by the reader. If you hear an hysterical voice in your head when you read my words, rather than a rational one, then I urge you to go back and re-read what I write.

I find it interesting that I have been accused of many things that I haven't actually said, but that doesn't strike you as unfair. I'm the one at fault. Still. Interesting. Hmmmm..... whatever could that mean?

Have I lost my shit in the past? Sure. Who hasn't around here? As that survey proved, this is a predominantly male environment and it took me awhile to understand that. That if I "lose my shit" it is a woman going all hysterical. So I have learned not to lose my shit anymore. But I am still accused of doing so.

As you say, I "earned" this reputation -- fairly in some cases, unfairly in others. All I can do is move forward and continue to be rational in the moment. I can't change past perceptions.

I was confused as to who was laying into me, @xxovercastxx. I was responding to you as if you had written what Yogi had written to me. That was wrong on my part. Sorry.

And I'm tired of this. I'm done discussing me.

If anyone wants to discuss the use of language in our society, I'm interested in your perspective. This is an interesting topic to me and has been for years. The power of language to shape our perceptions, to shape our world --- it has gotten the rap of being "PC" (interesting that that phrase hasn't come up in this discussion yet), however I have found that my use of language has shifted my understanding of interactions.

Anybody out there have something to add to the discussion of language? Whether you have chimed in on this comment stream before or not? Anybody interested in an intellectual conversation of ideas?

>> ^bareboards2:

@ChaosEngine, you are absolutely right. Context does matter.
I haven't gone into another aspect of my (much thought about) logic around this language issue -- although I did allude to it above -- but it is indeed about context.
I have no problem with the word girl being applied to grown women IF IF IF in the same CONTEXT, you would use the word boy for a grown man.
That is why your wife calls her women friends girls -- just like @longde called his friends boys. Same context.
My personal internal test for whether it is (unconsciously) sexist or not to call a grown woman a girl is to change the gender and ask myself -- if this were a man, would I call this grown man a boy under the same circumstances. If the answer is yes, then hey, go for it. CONTEXT does matter. I am with you 100%.
But I'll say the same thing to you -- go through one day doing that. Change the gender. When you hear "man", change to "boy" and see if that doesn't feel WRONG to you. When you hear "girl", change to "woman" and see if your internal landscape doesn't shift the tiniest bit.
Thank you for the first respectful response I have gotten to my point here. I really really appreciate it.
I also would be interested in hearing your wife's response to all my posts. That would be fascinating.


To be fair to you. I rewatched the video and tried to imagine if the story involved young men being racist hipster idiots.

And I can't help but concede you probably have a point here. It's highly unlikely that these guys would have referred to males in the same position as "boys". They would probably have been initially called "dudes" and later as the story progressed referred by some non-gender specific epithet (idiots/morons/etc.)

There's an interesting societal language thing at work here, and there's probably an element of "unconscious sexism" as you put it. Generally men are raised to treat women differently. This can be "positive" (holding a door open, "never hit a girl", etc) or negative (do I really need to provide examples of this?). And it's undoubtedly leaked into language. Also to be fair to the guys telling the story in the video, "girl" is such a common euphemism for woman in society that it's kinda hard to see it as anything but equivalent to "dude", "bloke" etc.

I don't know if that's down to sexism or just evolution of language, but as I said, there is definitely a difference. Whether that difference is ultimately problematic is, I guess, personal.

^Thanks, @ChaosEngine, for having an open and inquiring mind. I do appreciate it.

Now the question is -- does language shape our thinking? "What if" women were always called women in circumstances similar to when men are always called men? (Context, context, yes?)

I remember where I was the first time I called myself a "woman." It was forty years ago, and I remember everything about that moment. It felt weird as heck. A responsibility was being assumed by me, it felt like. It was my nineteenth birthday, and I was lounging poolside at a UCLA frat house in the middle of the day.

In traditional societies, there were rites of passage, weren't there? Often brutal, but still. A marking of the transition from childhood to adulthood. The closest thing I have to that in my conscious life is that moment I chose to call myself a woman for the first time.

Do you remember the first time you called yourself a man, assuming that mantle of responsibility?

I suspect it is different for men, because the word is used so much sooner for you guys. "Look at the little man!" when you are three years old. I never heard "look at the little woman." Still, that moment of truly being called a man -- or choosing that word for yourself -- does it resonate?

Thanks for taking this seriously, chaos.

And I still would be interested in your wife's take on this. She married well, I can tell. You rock.

Whoa!!!!! There has been something going in the younger crowd that is seriously cool!

- QUOTATION OF THE DAY -
"The way I look at it is that anything, basically, that a woman can do, a guy can do."
MIGUEL ALQUICIRA, on becoming a dental assistant, when more than 90 percent of those in the field are women.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/business/increasingly-men-seek-success-in-jobs-dominated-by-women.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha3_20120521