Rofl

^ ^ Seconded.

You gotta give the guy credit though. Only a seasoned politician can take a hit like that without batting an eyelash and immediately begin trying to spin it to his advantage. Props given for keeping his composure despite effectively getting politically sucker-punched on national television.

I'm no big fan of McCain, but this is just more Russert "gotcha" bullshit. That guy is horrible.

>> ^T-man:
I'm no big fan of McCain, but this is just more Russert "gotcha" bullshit. That guy is horrible.


What's so bullshit about this? Regardless of whether he could be expected to recognise his words now or not... the point is this:

"What are your thoughts on these words I'm reading?"
"I disagree with them"
"You said these words"
"Erm, well, what I was talking about then was completely different to now, even though you can clearly see how they're the same, I'll ignore the similarities completely"

It's perfect, it's putting politions to task about their ongoing hope that people never remember what they did in the past that they don't want you to remember... they talk up their past victories, and try and bury anything else.

Oh noes, vital national security interests!

"National security" doesn't even mean anything anymore, it's just some bullshit that politicians use to justify them breaking laws and doing whatever the fuck they want.

This was perfectly fair - in fact it should have been a slam-dunk for McCain and would be for anyone with a well thought-out position.

We don't get to see the rest of the exchange but what needs to be established are the differences between the two situations which make each respective position valid. McCain seems to be hinting at this but doesn't make explicit those distinctions - perhaps he does later in the clip.

The vague allusion to "national security" is totally lame if that's as far as he went.

is anyone else fucking flabbergasted by the fact that THIS is the quality of candidate that this country gets? It's fucking stupidity like this that makes the case for the hegemonic hidden cabal pulling the strings on these mindless puppet chumps. What a joke.

Fantastic. You get served.

What's so bullshit about this?

What's bullshit is reading someone's words from 15 years ago (that he obviously doesn't remember) as if they were a current statement about the Iraq war when in fact they were about a situation that doesn't really relate to the current one and then asking for comments. The fallacy is that it assumes someone's statements about Somalia could be applied to Iraq today. They can't necessarily. These were different situations at different points in history and it's very reasonable for somebody to have different opinions about these situations. It's certainly not a sign of inconsistency, as Russert implies, if they do. It's not that McCain has changed his opinion - it's that he has two opinions about two different situations. Isn't that what we want from our leaders?

And Russert knows this is bullshit. This type of questioning is not designed to give the audience any real information, it's designed to trip McCain up and make "news" for Russert.

This is Russert "Gotcha" 101. And it sucks... hard. Take a look at "The Unbearable Inanity of Tim Russert" by Matthew Yglesias for more info.

--------

And that's really the game here. Russert's goal isn't to inform his audience. He's there to "make news"—to get his guest to say something embarrassing that lands in the next day's papers or on the NBC Nightly News.

This was perfectly fair - in fact it should have been a slam-dunk for McCain and would be for anyone with a well thought-out position.

It's a little hard to have a well thought-out position when you are recovering from Russert's "In-Yo-Face, Flyboy!" gotcha. In a reasonable discussion we may have better found out why McCain feels differently about Iraq and Somalia and we would all have a greater understanding of the person who may be our next president. Instead we're saying "Oh, SNAP!"

Why did McCain feel different? Because Somalia happened under a Democratic administration, whereas Iraq is a huge mess *created* by the Republicans and the neo-conservative agenda. He needs the right-wing behind him to get elected, so of course he's going to pretend they're totally different.

In Somalia, which we entered as part of the UN in an attempt to ensure humanitarian relief (before we got into the nation-building aspect), we lost 43 soldiers, 29 of them in combat. (Reference: http://www.history.army.mil/brochures/Somalia/Somalia.htm)

To date in Iraq we have lost 3983 troops, 3258 in combat (3844 since "mission accomplished"). A war we entered into under false pretense, all for nation building, resources, and further meddling in the affairs of people who only hate us MORE and more the longer we stay. 9/11 didn't happen because people "hate our freedom", it happened because we've been shitting all over the region and its people for a very, very long time. It's time to get the rest of the civilized world on our side again, worry about ourselves, and leave the Middle East to govern itself. If the worry is that they'll somehow gather strength in the future and present an eminent danger to us, then we should be able to prove that and be able to face the threat with overwhelming force and *with* the support of our allies.

We're not winning any hearts and minds with our current approach.

"...Somalia happened under a Democratic administration..."


Actually, the mission was implemented during George HW Bush's term.

Let's not forget Tim Russert is the clown that, during a debate, asked the Democratic candidates "What's your favorite Bible verse?"

Tim Russert: Stop the Inanity

>> ^Trancecoach:
is anyone else fucking flabbergasted by the fact that THIS is the quality of candidate that this country gets? It's fucking stupidity like this that makes the case for the hegemonic hidden cabal pulling the strings on these mindless puppet chumps. What a joke.


We do have Ron Paul to vote for, but the american people want someone to identify with and since there are so many idiots in america, they want an idiot as pres to identify with.

Implemented, but the Battle of Mogadishu and essentially everything that spurred McCain's comment on the topic occurred during the Clinton Administration.

>> ^doremifa:
"...Somalia happened under a Democratic administration..."

Actually, the mission was implemented during George HW Bush's term.

Not really too much of a "gotcha" but still funny. I mean, the passage was referring to a completely different context than McCain initially realized. Words mean different things in different contexts.

The passage says "...for us to get into nation building, law and order, et cetera, is a tragic and terrible mistake...". Certainly seems so in Iraq. We did indeed get out of Somalia and avoid those issues. But his argument is that in this "post 9/11" world it is important to "fight them there so we don't fight them at home". Note- I don't agree with that, but it's not inconsistent with his positions.

2 Things. There's no oil in Somalia (not compared to the Middle East at least). America hates Africa.

McCain fails for two reasons.
1: He just got owned

2: Dag is gay for Obama, not YOU McCain!

I dont like McCain at all. I also dont agree with the host misrepresenting the quote.

But I fail to see how he got served. McCain fired right back that their was no comparison. And he didnt bat an eye. Despite the fact I hate McCain this video does NOTHING to discredit him other then his position sucks... Which we allready knew...

Meh... McCain did fine.

There are some arenas so corrupt that the only clean acts possible are nihilistic.
—Quellcrist Fallconer, Campaign Diaries (from Richard K. Morgan's Takeshi Kovacs trilogy)

>> ^SDGundamX:
^ ^ Seconded.
You gotta give the guy credit though. Only a seasoned politician can take a hit like that without batting an eyelash and immediately begin trying to spin it to his advantage. Props given for keeping his composure despite effectively getting politically sucker-punched on national television.


He's used to it.

I probably wouldn't vote for McCain but I'll give him props for deflecting the question. After reviewing the links on Russert I guess I would agree, but then they were attacking his style and shenanigans, there was no argument supporting him. Now perhaps there are none to be had.

What is it with his cheeks?

yeah, his left cheek in particular seems to do some strange things.
..I wouldn't vote for the guy on the basis of that alone.

There's a WORLD of difference.

Somalia (and Darfur): of no strategic interest to the US whatsoever.

Iraq: a burgeoning democracy in an otherwise tyrannical, backwards part of the world and a nice place from which to nuke Iran as needed.

Fat-faced russert on meet the Depressed. LOLZ.

In 2000, McCain had a malignant melanoma removed from the left side of his face. He also had his lymph nodes removed, I believe. Part of what you are seeing is the scar. Also, this surgery can often damage the nerve that controls facial movements and expressions. I believe this is what's happened to McCain.

more info

T-man - In response to your comment "It's a little hard to have a well thought-out position when you are recovering from Russert's "In-Yo-Face, Flyboy!" gotcha - Why exactly would this be hard?

Presumably, McCain is capable of recalling his position with respect to Somalia and how it differs from his take on Iraq and articulate this, perhaps not eloquently, but clearly. Unless, of course, his positions are not well-conceived or inconsistent.

In the latter case, I would expect generating a coherent response to be "a little hard".

Frankly, if this sort of thing throws him off, I would seriously question his qualifications for the job he is seeking...

Why exactly would this be hard?

Because he was probably pissed that Russert pulled that crap and maybe he was a little embarrassed that he didn't remember that those were his words from 15 years ago. That's the point of Russert's game - to get the guest off balance and hope they make a fool of themselves. McCain didn't in this case.


Presumably, McCain is capable of recalling his position with respect to Somalia and how it differs from his take on Iraq and articulate this, perhaps not eloquently, but clearly. Unless, of course, his positions are not well-conceived or inconsistent.

He was pretty clear, IMO.


Frankly, if this sort of thing throws him off, I would seriously question his qualifications for the job he is seeking...

I don't see that it really threw him off. Russert played his little game and McCain responded pretty well.


Russert is a horrible excuse for a journalist.

Typical liberal media trying their old tricks. But McCain, great American that he is, didn't stand for it.

T-man - I just re-watched the clip and I agree your points are valid. McCain, while I don't happen to agree with him on this point, did handle the question quite well.

I still think the question was valid however and if McCain is angry about it he really doesn't let on.

Yeah I think McCain made that news presenter look pretty dumb. Personally I think no matter what you think should happen in Iraq now, the whole f***** situation is sad and its basically too late. America owe the rest of the world a big fat apology and then they should get out of everyone's face for a few decades and let China run the world for a while.

Guardian-X America doesnt hate Africa, its just that continent has nothing to offer us. I'm not saying that to agree that its right but its true that if Africa had oil or if slavery was still legal we would be all over that shit. But since there is no reward for helping them and over throwing the countless dictators, warlords, and genocide events going on we instead go for an isolated dictator who has an ass load Texas T. I agree this clip has a little of that "gotcha" bullshit but you kinda have to do that today because politicians are already lying snakes who can talk around any point. So if he opened up saying "Sir these are your words from 15 years ago, let me read them to you" That would of given Mccain tons of time to organize exactly how he was going to twist and manipulate the statement, load it up with 2 tons of horse shit and feed it to you like its some French delicacy