That was eerie...listening to one dead guy talk about another.

Who can tell?

Carlin agrees with me about 9/10.

(but I cried when he died, and I put his picture on my mantel)

I know that I was between Cheyenne Wyoming and Fort Collins Colorado when Elvis died, coming back from a cattle show.

Sinatra lived a life none of us could understand, where the line between law and crime was thin and ever changing.

Essentially, each man had two sides: the man and the artist.

I will remember the artist with love.

If you cried At his death then you are seriously imbalanced person. It makes no seance to get so emotional over famous people dying if you do you should be morbidly depressed over the fact that amazing people that serve society or have given grate sacrifice die all the time they just arnt famous.

I think the reason people get so emotional is because that allow the media image of the famous people to imprint on them in the same way people build up this image of juses or the way people can become emotional over fictional characters in films.

the only bad thing from the perspective of a fan who doesn't relay know them is that they will no longer get the content from that person they used to. in the same way that if a pub closed down that you linked u would no longer be able to go there.

If annything it shows u how connected people can allow them selfs to feal to something thats not "real" yes the person exists but that image you are presented is more often than not is a fiction especial with commercial entertainers its a fiction designed to generate wealth.

>> ^westy:
If you cried At his death then you are seriously imbalanced person.


You are wrong, westy.

Few are the men whose voices are heard.

Fewer still the wise ones, and not the opportunists.

I like you, westy. I like truth.

George Carlin was true.

But you were right about the image thing:

So the man dies,
The image lasts.

How about some tears for the hundreds of geologists who get run over next to road cuts while studying how, for example, we might be able to fix a landslide problem in a hilly residential area? Never heard of them? of course not because they are real people doing real jobs that help other real people with their real lives, that NOBODY CARES ABOUT. Neither Carlin nor Jackson can really claim any of that and yet they are almost looked upon as gods.

By the way, westy, its "great" not "grate." You should have learned the difference in 1st grade.

It's ok to mourn the passing of legends and heroes.
I'm sorry for you if you don't understand the impact of art on the world.

The impact is only an impact because people have deluded themselves. OUTSIDE of irrationality MJ,ELVIS, whatever are pretty much erlivent to the world other than being significant artists to a large number of people. yah thay entertained which is fun and yah its a shame that they will no longer produce music but we have recordings of there work and no doubt new people will come along who do stuff that's just as entertaining if not better and different.

Peoples reactions are totally disproportionate to the actual worth that the person is. Its so narrow minded to be so emotionally invested in 1 person who you don't know and only like because of there art and probably for many people because of there publicity and media image.

also MJ wasn't exactly producing the best music for the last 10 years granted he might have been about to produce some realy nice stuff we shall never know but looking at the evidence to hand The MJ as a producer had died a good 10-13 years ago.

This whole event is another reflection on how a large proportion of society are completely mentally fucked and unable to be proportional.

Unless you knew him personally you are simply morning a fictional image and your loss of the potential for him to make new music /dance ruteens and as i sead its not that likly he would be producing annything as influencail afrtisticly sugnificant that he had alredy done 10 years ago .

Its not really that bigger loss relitavly speeking compared to day to day life anyone that actually thinks rationally would come to that conclusion.

From the perspective of fans he hasn't actual died his image and music will live on i don't think any of the fans ever really knew knew him as a person any way so in some ways MJ as people know him is not really dead.

finaly ! lol he died spontaneously in a fairly pain free manor not a bad way to go , and i think he probably enjoyed manny aspects of his life so its not relay that bad at all. , I am all for people playing his music and having a party though its always good to have an excuse to party whatever its for , im just annoyed by the people crying and it being a major news story and all this talk about how much of a huge loss it is.

People live together and culture evolves. A major portion of culture is the human expression of emotion and thought through art. Through their performances some artists rise above the rest and take part in defining a genre or a generation. These people become cultural icons or heroes because they have a major impact on how we express ourselves. They create points in history that help define us as a people, through our culture. It's a real impact. It's not delusional. Their music, their art and their value is not delusional. You're logic would mean there would never be a Heracles. Never a Superman.

You completely devalue art. I don't know how you live. Art is just disposable? When one artist dies don't care about it because another one will take his place? Is that just your way of coping with death or are you really so callous?

edit .. well fuck .. you just changed your post a lot .. whatever .. I have to just quote from now on.

I don't devalue art at all i think people overvalue individual peaces of art, just because something is popular dose not make it "better art" , and as i sead all his works are not deleted so we haven't lost the art he has made. MJs art was like porn just enjoyable the messages not particularly deep or thought provoking not that thats a bad thing but its not like he poineard the message of his songs ect. he put together some nice tunes and did some good dancing that resonated with a majority of people. Yes he was a significant musicon and had a huge influence on pop music but i don't see that as a reason to be sad over him not existing Anny more.

everything is about proportionality peoples reactions are not proportional and that is a serous problem.

tell me specifically what people who don't know MJ personally have lost ? most his recent music was average not bad but most MJ experts would agree its not evan close to his older music,

i guess we lose watching retards scream and chase after him whenever he walks around and maby he would have produced a couple more really good songs and done maby 1 or 2 tours who knows , but its not a huge lose to any one other than his close family.

This whole midea hyp over his death is just a way to make mony from fame its totally separate to his art achievements and message, media is about making mony and well MJ and famous people that are talented + random are easy to make money out of.

as i say lets just play his music enjoy it and not be retards let his family and people who know him get on with stuff do what they have to do to get over there personal loss,

I'm relay into computer games and some people have really pushed games as an art form forwards dosent mean im going to get all emotional when they die ill just be like oh that's a shame that they wont do any more or that they wont continue to push the art in a direction some people might have liked. in the end things will progress and other artisits will come along and do things that's equally as enjoyable but in different ways.

say Steven Hawkins dies and i would argue he is and has been far more important to society than MJ then i would not be particualy sad , it be the same fealing of oh that's a shame that he will no longer be advancing humanity in his way , but i would also know that there are thousands of scientists that are doing other work that is just as relivent but not as easy to pin on a singular person.

People die, it sucks. If someone like MJ dies and you cry, it's gonna be hell for you when a family member dies.

I think it's remarkable how much a celebrity death brings out the crazies of the woodwork. I'm not talking about you guys here, though, I mean the people they interview for "reactions" on regular media:

"He was the greatest man who ever lived"
"I loved him SO MUCH"
yadda yadda

He's a man, he's not your family, he is not his art, he is a man. You don't love him, you love his music, which is not dead.

It's OK to feel sad when someone who had an impact on you has died - I certainly felt bad when George Carlin died, for instance - but he's not my grampa - I'm not going to be grief-stricken and pull out my hair because I can't live in a world without him. That's insane.

Westy and gwiz665, you both make a good point. What you're speaking of could be called "emotional economy". It's the idea that we only place emotional investment in those close to us - those whom we expect will in return invest emotionally in us. This is the natural way of human civilization, and it is an important psychological defense mechanism. For instance, as i write this, someone somewhere in the world just died. If all people could feel the death of all other people (or creatures in general), we would all be overwhelmed by the constant flood of pain and emotion.

However, you fail to understand the nature of the situation. And while it is important to have a rational outlook on the subject of celebrities, it is also important to understand this next concept:

When you kill an animal for food (or buy a packaged, pre-killed, animal product) it is healthy to thank that animal for giving its life to sustain your own. Too many people thank God, or some other thing, but thanking the animal - so that you understand your own place in the natural order - is the true purpose of saying grace before eating.

Without that thanks, and without the understanding that comes with genuine gratitude for the sacrifice of another life for your own, a person begins to devalue the life of the creature they killed. The devaluation continues and grows in its own way, until eventually that person (and all people) come to believe themselves to be above less intelligent forms of life. Understand: Just because humans are higher on the food chain doesn't mean you are any more significant than a deer - or a bee. Or even a virus.

It is not possible to understand the meaning of this overnight. It is a kind of insight that must grow in you until the meaning becomes clear on its own. It is the same as when your parents push you to say "please" and "thank you" and to show respect in general and have good manners. As a very young child, you don't understand the necessity. But as you grow older and gain experience with other people and social situations, you begin to understand that the words "please", "thank you", "excuse me", "i'm sorry", and so on, have a deeper purpose that goes beyond mere manners.

And so it is with emotional expression. People form attachments to artists and performers. These attachments are, in truth, almost always made to the image that the artist is projecting of him- or herself. But even that projected image is a part of the person. Just as importantly however, it should be understood that celebrities /become/ celebrities not just because of the link between their image and their fans, but also because of the links between people who share a love or interest in what that famous person is doing. People tend to congregate around ideas (and ideals). That's why going to church is so popular. People could worship in the privacy of their own homes, yet many choose to go to a church (or temple, etc). Why? Because of the social aspect. Because of the shared links, not just between the congregation and the topic at hand, but also between all the people present! It is this way with all things.

Understand further that a person's emotional investment itself is so often times tied directly to some event in their life. Perhaps someone experienced her first kiss while Elvis was playing on the radio in the background. Perhaps a close family member died 20 or 30 years ago, and at that time, that person heard a song that echoed the same feelings he or she was feeling at that moment. There was a sense that "Yes, someone else out there /knows/ what i'm going through. Their lyrics comfort me. Their melody is a catharsis of my very soul." There's a gratitude there. And now that the musician has died, it is as if the person has lost a piece of themselves.

It may not seem rational, but it is most certainly logical.

Understand finally that this emotional connection to a person's outward persona is a fine and necessary substitution for having a direct emotional connection to them. (Regardless of whether they're a so-called "celebrity" or not.) The problem isn't that we have too much of that, it's that we don't have enough of it going around to more people. And what we do have is too often abused by unscrupulous journalism (ie: "The Media"). Perhaps you would find it interesting to know that i personally have more emotional resonance with Tori Amos than i do with any one of my blood kin. She and i don't know each other personally, but her actions (her music) have helped me through situations that none of them would or could have (and in fact, some of those situations were caused by them).

There's so much more that could be said on this subject, though i will simply close with this: All things in moderation. Balance.

"However, you fail to understand the nature of the situation " ?

no i don't and nowhere in your response have you actually pointed to any misunderstanding of the situation on my behalf.



"Without that thanks, and without the understanding that comes with genuine gratitude for the sacrifice of another life for your own, a person begins to devalue the life of the creature they killed."

THIS IS NOT ALWAYS TRUE what if you have a neutral understanding and appreciation
for everything not a hierarchical one?


vclxrr I would sagest that you don't write subjective or non definite things in a way that comes across as if you are stating facts.

westy... Please, just stop. People have an emotional connection with art and often the artist. Isn't that the point? I'll try not to prolong this stupid, stupid argument any longer and say this- I will miss Michael Jackson. I miss George Carlin. Many of my fondest memories revolve around Michael Jackson music and for that I thank him. When I was very young in a Catholic school, George Carlin let me know that I was not evil for questioning or disagreeing and for that I thank him. RIP

westy, the topic of emotions / emotional connections is inherently subjective.

Quoting vclxrr: "Without that thanks, and without the understanding that comes with genuine gratitude for the sacrifice of another life for your own, a person begins to devalue the life of the creature they killed. The devaluation continues and grows in its own way, until eventually that person (and all people) come to believe themselves to be above less intelligent forms of life."

Quoting westy: "THIS IS NOT ALWAYS TRUE what if you have a neutral understanding and appreciation for everything not a hierarchical one?"

"no i don't [misunderstand the nature of the situation] and nowhere in your response have you actually pointed to any misunderstanding of the situation on my behalf."

Quoting westy: "If you cried At his death then you are seriously imbalanced person."

Heh, I don't want to get involved in a grand discussion about this, because I really don't care much.

Moderation is key, I'll agree on that.

I don't get the debate. Some were emotionally affected by his music. Some weren't. Those who were, will definitely mourn the loss more than those who weren't. What do you want? An award saying that you're right on this issue? Well there is none, because it is a relative thing. I don't care if you won't miss him. I only care if you have something to say about him bringing some value to your existence. If you don't miss him, move on. It's ok. There will be your time to mourn one day.

westy you did a way better job being logical in your assertions than i... and now i think i better appreciate all stances in the matter after reading this post. good siftocracy.

Yeah FUCK Elvis!

^Bringing the discussion back to the video at hand.


Sammy Davis? Second-rate? Waaah! George Carlin was nuts! But thats also precisely why I like him.

You people talk too much.

...and not even Carlin would say "fuck you" to Sinatra's face.

Everyone in that video is dead. As is everyone who commented.

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