max blumenthal does a good michael moore type job of playing along...

what a bunch of f**kers

closet homosexual @ 4:44

repub=democrat=red team=blue team

(draw a diagram chog, they still are blind)

A must watch for everyone. Makes me sad that we have to repeat the same mistakes of 40 years ago, and the people in this video will be repeating it for another generation in another 40 years.

Asking college republicans such a question is completely unfair and illogical. I'm against the war but I'm hardly for shady things like this. There was no possible way this could have come out any way other than for the liberal side, it's a set-up.

If you ask people that have not joined the army if they are going to, of course the answer is largely going to be no. All the ones that planned on joining the army probably already DID! If you truly want an accurate statistic go to Iraq and find out how many of them are republicans.

Another false assumption here is that one has to participate in a war to have an opinion about it. Which is a completely idiotic position to take. The guy walking around asking questions isn't in Iraq right now so he has just about as much right to have an opinion about it as the victims of this waste do.

Way to sink to their level.

BrknPhoenix:

I didn't support the war from the start. I don't believe any troops at all should have been committed to Iraq (or even Afghanistan, for that matter). Why should I enlist for a cause I did not vote for nor believe in? Suddenly I don't have a "right" to my opinion because I'm not located *in* Iraq? Hogwash. My opinion saves lives, I can't say the same about these Republicans.

These Republicans believe in "the cause," yet cite numerous excuses for not serving. They are just talking heads that have no problem sending OTHER men and women overseas to attempt (and fail) at fulfilling their naive and narrow perceptions of "democracy" and the "war on terror."

If they really cared about the conflict, they would find a way to serve. There are plenty of jobs in the military that don't involve combat or even deployment to Iraq. They can serve their country just fine. They just choose not to.

I agree that way too many "voters" in the US are sheeple and go along with whatever crap they are fed. However, I don't think video helps show that fact. It's slanted in just the same way Michael Moore attacking Charlton Heston was slanted.

HaricotVert:

I didn't say you didn't have a right to your opinion because you're not in Iraq. Look closely and you'll see I said it was idiotic to say someone's opinion is invalidated because they are not a participant of the thing they support, which is what this video is trying to do.

I support having professional baseball, yet I am not a professional baseball player. Why? I am not that good at baseball and there are others that are much better suited for it than I. I'd just get in the way. War isn't quite as fun as baseball but there's an unlimited number of comparisons that could be made that indicate that not being in the war is not a valid reason to say someone is wrong for supporting it.

And as far as your opinion "saving lives"... Not so fast. They're still over there as far as I can see. You can armchair quarterback all you like but claiming someone's opinion of the war doesn't matter because they aren't there, while you yourself aren't there, isn't going to be getting the soldiers home any time soon.

Typical Liberal propaganda based only on emotion, with little regard for logic.

I liked plastiquemonkey (the poster's) comment... its almost a critique of a Micheal Moore piece, thats how directed and silly it is.

Interesting that this post brought out the angry conservatives. Methinks there's a little resentment at having the hypocrisy of one's ideological compatriots exposed.

Oh, and Surfer684kk: it would be nice if you explained exactly what bit of illogic is in the video. You know, for us slower liberals who teach logic courses. . .

I didn't think that the college Republicans would have such ties to the religious right, like those bumper stickers on sale. That was pretty surprising.

Great Stuff, thanks for posting. Here is Max's blog
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/generation-chickenhawk-t_b_56676.html

BrknPhoenix

I didn't say you didn't have a right to your opinion because you're not in Iraq. Look closely and you'll see I said it was idiotic to say someone's opinion is invalidated because they are not a participant of the thing they support, which is what this video is trying to do.

This video is in no way invalidating the opinions of the college Republicans. The video *is* pointing out the inconsistency of supporting the war yet not actively seeking out their local enlistment agency. I'm sure the filmmaker was well aware of the opinions these individuals hold, but his intent was not to INVALIDATE them. It was to point out that the most direct way in which they could follow through on their views would be to actively enlist and serve, and yet none choose to do so.

I support having professional baseball, yet I am not a professional baseball player. Why? I am not that good at baseball and there are others that are much better suited for it than I. I'd just get in the way. War isn't quite as fun as baseball but there's an unlimited number of comparisons that could be made that indicate that not being in the war is not a valid reason to say someone is wrong for supporting it.

That is a fallacious comparison. Only a tiny percentage of people are qualified enough to become a major league baseball player, while the military has no problem training anyone who is of age and of sufficient health. Even if you have medical problems (as some of these individuals cite), the military is always in need of individuals in a supporting role. Even simple clerical jobs are available at home. That would still be an act of "doing one's part" in the war effort, thus lending credibility to their words.

And as far as your opinion "saving lives"... Not so fast. They're still over there as far as I can see. You can armchair quarterback all you like but claiming someone's opinion of the war doesn't matter because they aren't there, while you yourself aren't there, isn't going to be getting the soldiers home any time soon.

1. I am of the opinion that the Iraq war should never have been fought.
2. Had the Iraq war never been fought, a MINIMUM 67,265 Iraqi civilians (NOT combatants) would not have died. An additional 3,623 (and rising) American service men and women would not have died.
3. Therefore, had the American public, press, and administration held the same "dove" opinion that myself and many others across the nation had, it is unlikely that the war would have occurred.

Point being: Yes, the armed forces are over in Iraq. Except I didn't put them there. I didn't support putting them there. I did my duty as a citizen - I wrote my congressmen and senators. I attended protests and demonstrations. I discussed/argued with my friends that this is an unjustifiable war... and I was not listened to.

Now look where we are.

I feel this is a fair video. If the subjects really felt that the war was that important and I mean *really important* to safeguard their way of life then they would be far more willing to sign up or express a desire to do so.
During the two World Wars it wasn't a hard sell to convince people how dangerous the Nazis were.

Unfortunately invading another country to get at a loosely affiliated series of terrorist groups was completely nutso.

If there was a grave and serious threat to my country I'd be enlisting despite my dodgy hip, poor eyes and questionable fitness. This ludicrous diversion in Iraq? Never in a million years.

Some definite hypocracy here on both sides. Yes, there were some pretty cheesy reasons for not enlisting. And then there's the standard closing act by the interviewer who continues to increase his disturbance level until he is forced to leave, crying about his treatment and ignoring his part that caused that treatment. It's just not effective anymore; it's been played out. He got what he came for, he should have just left. Now he has tainted all his prior work.

HaricotVert,

Just because there are 'supporting roles' available, you still need to be able to pass the physical aspects of boot camp.

It's only if your actually IN the military and you get injured, (and it's an injury that might qualify you for medical discharge) THEN you might be offered a 'supporting role'.

And the guy who did that is a jackass. "Is this how republicans sole problems? With violence?" Hmm... Yeah, I don't think that being escorted out is considered violence.

@Rotty
Are you saying that the interviewer's acts at the end of the piece indemnify any actions or opinions of the people he interviewed or will ever interview in the future?

twiddles,

I'm not sure "indemnify" is the word you wanted. I'm just saying that his actions at the end cheapens the whole experience there. The classy thing to do would be to summize what he has seen and heard and leave. By no means does his actions change what was said by the others, it just ends the piece badly. The whole "breathing excersice" thing was just irrelevant and unecessary.

I wonder if these baffoons would still support the war after their tour of duty (reality check) in Iraq.

Conversely, simply being a US soldier in Iraq does NOT automatically mean you support our governments decision to go there.

I agree the interviewer's actions toward the end were not classy. I wished he hadn't done that silly "interpetive dance" schtick. But if that is what you focus on then you miss the point. He was drawing attention to the fact that these people were embarassed by their views and did not want anyone filming them. They wish to operate as an exclusive club that denies access to anyone not of total like-mindedness. When you say the reporter's work is tainted it implies you believe that anything anyone said in the film is not to be believed.

Animal,

Are you saying that I'm a baffoon because I've been there and still support the war?

I honestly believe that we are doing alot of good over there. Just ask any of the Iraqi citizens that cheered, waved, said thank you to me and my brothers-in-arms. Ask the dozens more that I had the opportunity to have conversations with that tell me that they don't want us leaving, because when we do "bad men come."

BLUMENTURD WHERE'S YOUR HYBRID?

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Hey does it take a long tome to type those or do you have one stored just in case?

I cackled out loud @ DeLay's logic.

Republicans are dumb and prey on the dumber.

That's not really nice, quantumushroom.

"If there was a grave and serious threat to my country I'd be enlisting despite my dodgy hip, poor eyes and questionable fitness."

hear-hear, Deano. I will without hesitation honor the sacrifices of those who have gone before me by fighting for this nation on the front-lines in the face any real and significant external challenges to our way of life.

When did Iraq attack us again? And who is making jokes about a single intelligence failure (WMD) that will cost us thousands of American lives and hundreds of billions of dollars? Excuse me for getting confused as to who's actions are actually affecting the American way of life.

My brother (R-Massachusetts, a rare breed =]) joined Army ROTC freshman year at his college in Virginia. He liked it so much that he joined the Virginia National Guard as well. Military service is appealing to a lot of people... maybe because he gets paid so well (for his age).

the people gota stand up now and know when they have lost. we have lost in iraq. we got our ass kicked in vetnam. why because we dont have the heart. 911 and the other bombings got people going but not enough to beat the people of iraq in city warfar. no way we better just give up now cuz who can says vetnam was a good idea come on our the guys over there they can kill rape tortoure or follow every rule in the book but there still being used as pawns. while bush and the rest of the upperclass try to brain wash the people to buy into buying life.

I love the brain washed responses.

"Fight them over there, not here." Yeah because I see boat loads of iraqi insurgents gathering on the shores to cross the atlantic and bring it too us. Ridiculous. It's like saying I'd rather poke a stick in every hornet's nest in my neighborhood to try to kill a few on their turf while pissing off the rest, then have to make sure my windows and screens are closed to keep out the two a year that get in and try to sting me.

I don't care about them not serving, I don't think that's a fair way of presenting things. I do however care that they are ill-informed mouth pieces of the RNC, blindly drinking the Koolaid without taking in all sides. Why all the al queda talk? Do they think Iraq had something to do with 9/11? These folks need a good dose of populist history ala Howard Zinn and a big f$cking reality check.

I won't even touch Delay's abortion comment. Because the classist implications of what he said make me want to eat the rich and retake the middle class.

"Are you saying that I'm a baffoon because I've been there and still support the war?"

I'm saying the exact opposite. These guys are uninformed; FAR removed from the realities of war that our soldiers see/have seen in Iraq or in any armed conflict. These hombres are recycling the same parroted reasons given when we invaded. None of which really materialized. You, as a former soldier who's been there, don't see anything disingenuous about it? You really want THESE people to someday speak + roll the dice over our Army's next endeavor?

No, Animal, the whole lot of those guys are idiots, and are only coming up with standardized responses.

I think the reason for going to war with Iraq was a total load of bullshit. Had there actually been solid evidence that there were WMDs, then by all means, send the troops over.
But whats done is done, and because we're there now, we should finish the job.
Yes, a lot of the infrastructure has been destroyed since we were there, but it wasn't us that did it. Yes, lots of civilians have died, but again, it wasn't our fault.

I was in Iraq when the first vote was held. More people per capita came to vote than in America. Doesn't that mean something?
When you are on an operation to 'clean out' a village (detain/kill insurgents) and the locals beg you not to go, you know that there is a place for our troops in that country.

So yes, those guys are idiots. But to be fair, If no one went to college to go to Iraq, where would our future politicians be?

For a fun game, watch the body language. Note when the respondents look down, look to the sides, and blink.

Body Language of Lies:

• Physical expression will be limited and stiff, with few arm and hand movements. Hand, arm and leg movement are toward their own body the liar takes up less space.

• A person who is lying to you will avoid making eye contact.

• Hands touching their face, throat & mouth. Touching or scratching the nose or behind their ear. Not likely to touch his chest/heart with an open hand.

- from http://www.blifaloo.com/info/lies.php

I can hear the comment now, "and he drives a Japanese car too!"

Re: getting "escorted out" - that was actually documented evidence of battery. Yes, he's guilty of trespass for disobeying their request for him to leave, but that does not give them the right to physically push him. The correct action would've been to call the police, or if they're really feeling ballsy, perhaps threaten a citizen's arrest, but that usually blows up in your face even if you're "in the right" (no pun intended).

He smartly didn't press charges because he was equally guilty of another offense (unless it was an open forum and they had no right to eject him - I suspect, though, that it was probably a private forum).

mink is a pacifist until the day someone tries to kill me.

no aye rackee ever tried to kill me. i haven't even seen convincing evidence that they were ever planning it.

there's the logic to fill in the "emotional" argument for you.

sure you don't have to be a soldier to have an opinion on the war, but if these airheads think it's such a noble cause, it seems strange they aren't helping more. flagwaving is easy, thinking about the consequences is, like, you know, really hard and stuff?

Not that I agree with the war or have a lot of respect for its supporters, but the whole "gee they sure have a lot of medical problems" angle is pretty weak when you consider that his sample pool is: a bunch of war supporters who aren't enlisted. So uh... the sort of thing that genuinely prevents you from taking part WOULD be represented in a greater proportion among that population, wouldn't it? And yeah... so would just plain self-interest and cowardice. But that's not actually a counter-argument to their goofball positions, and it essentially constitutes an ad hominem attack that does nothing to advance opposition to the war.

I hate it when people who are on my side of the fence on these issues resort to empty rhetoric and cheap stunts to whip up ephemeral applause from the choir. These issues are real and important and they deserve better than cheapshots.

*waronterror

Adding video to channels (Waronterror) - requested by raven.

Max Blumenthal week continues with this *quality gem.

Boosting this quality contribution up in the Hot Listing - declared quality by dystopianfuturetoday.

>> ^choggie:

closet homosexual @ 4:44
repub=democrat=red team=blue team
(draw a diagram chog, they still are blind)


Yeah, that guy is classic.

>> ^oohahh:

For a fun game, watch the body language. Note when the respondents look down, look to the sides, and blink.
Body Language of Lies:
• Physical expression will be limited and stiff, with few arm and hand movements. Hand, arm and leg movement are toward their own body the liar takes up less space.
• A person who is lying to you will avoid making eye contact.
• Hands touching their face, throat & mouth. Touching or scratching the nose or behind their ear. Not likely to touch his chest/heart with an open hand.
- from http://www.blifaloo.com/info/lies.php


Don't believe everything you read about liars. Good liars can make eye contact and lie. Great lairs can make you believe it.

Also, it's not a lie if they believe it.

Jerry, just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098904/quotes

Both sides can use this argument. You could make the same argument to anyone, me included who would have supported intervening in Rwanda to stop the genocide.

.

>> ^MarineGunrock:
Just ask any of the Iraqi citizens that cheered, waved, said thank you to me and my brothers-in-arms. Ask the dozens more that I had the opportunity to have conversations with that tell me that they don't want us leaving, because when we do "bad men come."


We have asked the Iraqi citizens these questions, and every poll shows that %85 want us the fuck out of their country, and %75 think it's OK to fire at US soldiers.

When you have armored humvees filled with rednecks with big guns and itchy trigger fingers trapsing through your village, of course you're going to appear nice to them. When you have events like fallujah and Abu Ghraib, these people know better than to fuck with anyone wearing a US flag on their shoulder. It's common sense, not some misguided feeling that they're happy to have had USA destroy their country, torture and kill their citizens, and send over a million children into the underground sex industry.

They're not in Iraq for a simple reason, they are rich. Iv'e never ever ever ever seen a person in uniform that was from a wealthy family, let alone one who could afford a three piece business suit. People talk a good game but won't sacrafice years of their lives to wallow in the trenches for minimum wage. Their was only the football player who joined the airborn rangers. If you want action you become a grunt, if you want the glory associated with being a grunt, you become a marine. If you are dangerous, wreckless bastard who is indifferent to either notion, you become a ranger. If you come from a rich family, you go to a good university and become middle managment at a law firm. Simple. Politics has nothing to do with the uniform, it's the suits a million miles away that deal with that shit.

*promote

Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Wednesday, July 18th, 2007 10:38pm PDT - promote requested by geo321.