Finally There Is Bipartisan Agreement: Trump Blew It

It took the President of the United States siding with Russia to bring Democrats and Republicans together, for once.
newtboysays...

To be fair, their reports were actually clear that they had no evidence of that, and that they had indications it wasn't true. Bush's Secretary of State and Defense Secretary ignored those reports and claimed we had evidence that was not supported by the intelligence community.....so no, it didn't happen as you suggest, but I admit that is what we were told they said.

Spacedog79said:

The intelligence community gave clear, unbiased and objective evidence that Saddam had WMDs too.

Spacedog79says...

I feel like I'm in a time warp here.

As far as I understand it that is exactly what they are saying about the Russian hacks too, they have no clear link to the Kremlin. I'm not saying they didn't do it but there is a clear smell of witch hunt going on.

What I find especially galling is Robert Mueller was FBI director at the time of the Iraq war and he was using the exact same language about how clear the evidence for WMDs was.

newtboysaid:

To be fair, their reports were actually clear that they had no evidence of that, and that they had indications it wasn't true. Bush's Secretary of State and Defense Secretary ignored those reports and claimed we had evidence that was not supported by the intelligence community.....so no, it didn't happen as you suggest, but I admit that is what we were told they said.

newtboysays...

Not exactly.
They have actual evidence that many Kremlin tied agents were involved.
True, they haven't released any evidence proving Putin's personal involvement....yet.... but it's not a bit believable that this enormous government project was done behind his back. He IS personally involved with what his government is doing.

Granted, Mueller did seem to tow the Republican party line building up to Iraq, not with outright lies but by cherry picking reports and minimizing uncertainty but mostly by not correcting Bush, Rice, and Powell, which makes it even less likely he would turn 180 degrees to now outright lie and create evidence out of nothing to oppose his own chosen party, especially knowing it will come out eventually.

Also, it bears noting Mueller didn't have a part in creating any of the multiple reports, both public and classified, accusing Russia of interference, those came from numerous agencies and internal investigations by the businesses involved (like Facebook) AND from our allies intelligence agencies.

Odd, I haven't seen Mueller using any language about Russia, he's not doing interviews or releasing press statements, only indictments that in many cases are followed quickly with guilty pleas, what language exactly are you referring to?

"Witch hunt"....ahhh....so you've tipped your hand, indicating no amount of evidence will ever be enough to convince you because you believe Trump, even when he contradicts himself....except when he tells you there was clear Russian governmental interference, because he finished that sentence by saying "and others", which under a red hat means it doesn't matter, pay no attention to the Vlad behind the curtain....no collusion, no collusion, no collusion...la-la-la-la-la.

Odd, for a witch hunt, they have a whole bunch of convictions and people admitting to witchcraft. That's just not how witch hunts work.

Spacedog79said:

I feel like I'm in a time warp here.

As far as I understand it that is exactly what they are saying about the Russian hacks too, they have no clear link to the Kremlin. I'm not saying they didn't do it but there is a clear smell of witch hunt going on.

What I find especially galling is Robert Mueller was FBI director at the time of the Iraq war and he was using the exact same language about how clear the evidence for WMDs was.

Spacedog79says...

There are many good reasons to oppose Trump but I don't think thawing relations with Russia should be one of them. Sure they may have meddled in elections but they are rank amateurs compared to America who do it to just about everyone, friend or foe.

I get the distinct impression that there is a powerful section of the American oligarchy who are terrified of peace with Russia and are trying everything they can to stir up fear and hatred in the public, and its working. Mention Russia and it's borderline hysteria, it's really not healthy.

newtboysaid:

"Witch hunt"....ahhh....so you've tipped your hand, indicating no amount of evidence will ever be enough to convince you because you believe Trump, even when he contradicts himself....except when he tells you there was clear Russian governmental interference, because he finished that sentence by saying "and others", which under a red hat means it doesn't matter, pay no attention to the Vlad behind the curtain....no collusion, no collusion, no collusion...la-la-la-la-la.

newtboysays...

There's a big difference between peace and appeasement, Trump is offering the latter, we already had the former.
Russia is expanding both it's borders and influence in Europe. Their actions merit some hysteria. Using nerve agents on foreign soil is an act of war against our allies and humanity, as were the invasions of Crimea and the Ukraine. Is Alaska the next lost satellite Putin has his eye on? Who's going to come to our aid if so?

Spacedog79said:

There are many good reasons to oppose Trump but I don't think thawing relations with Russia should be one of them. Sure they may have meddled in elections but they are rank amateurs compared to America who do it to just about everyone, friend or foe.

I get the distinct impression that there is a powerful section of the American oligarchy who are terrified of peace with Russia and are trying everything they can to stir up fear and hatred in the public, and its working. Mention Russia and it's borderline hysteria, it's really not healthy.

Spacedog79says...

Lest we forget that Crimea started when we sponsored a violent coup in Ukraine, right on Russia's doorstep. How provocative is that?

The thing to remember about Crimea is that it holds Sevastopol which is a strategically vital port for Russia, it is their only port that isn't ice locked during winter. We knew full well they would have to keep hold of it one way or another, and thankfully Russia found a democratic way of doing it instead of violent.

Under the circumstances I think Russia deserves credit for being so restrained.

newtboysaid:

There's a big difference between peace and appeasement, Trump is offering the latter, we already had the former.
Russia is expanding both it's borders and influence in Europe. Their actions merit some hysteria. Using nerve agents on foreign soil is an act of war against our allies and humanity, as were the invasions of Crimea and the Ukraine. Is Alaska the next lost satellite Putin has his eye on? Who's going to come to our aid if so?

newtboysays...

Really? WE sponsored a VIOLENT coup? So you take the purely Russian viewpoint.
Wiki-
After the breakup of the Soviet Union, Ukraine endured years of corruption, mismanagement, lack of economic growth, currency devaluation, and problems in securing funding from public markets.[38][39] Successive Ukrainian governments in the 2000s sought a closer relationship with the European Union (EU).[40][41] One of the measures meant to achieve this was an association agreement with the European Union, which would have provided Ukraine with funds in return for liberalising reforms. President Yanukovych announced his intention to sign the agreement, but ultimately refused to do so at the last minute. This sparked a wave of protests called the "Euromaidan" movement. During these protests Yanukovych signed a treaty and multibillion-dollar loan with Russia. The Ukrainian security forces cracked down on the protesters, further inflaming the situation and resulting in a series of violent clashes in the streets of Kiev. As tensions rose, Yanukovych fled to Russia and did not return.[44]

Russia refused to recognize the new interim government, calling the overthrow of Yanukovych a coup d'état, and began a military intervention in Ukraine. The newly appointed interim government of Ukraine signed the EU association agreement and agreed to reform the country's judiciary and political systems, as well as its financial and economic policies. The International Monetary Fund pledged more than $18 billion in loans contingent on Ukraine's adopting those reforms. The revolution was followed by pro-Russian unrest in some south-eastern regions, a standoff with Russia regarding the annexation of Crimea and Sevastopol, and a war between the Ukrainian government and Russia-backed separatists in the Donbass.



The thing to remember about Crimea is it WASN'T PART OF RUSSIA, so no it didn't hold Russia's only black sea port not ice blocked in winter, it held a Ukrainian port Russia LEASED for use by it's black sea fleet from the Ukraine.
It's utter bullshit that Russia found a democratic way to invade and annex Crimea, they militarily invaded, seized and dissolved the democratically elected government by force, created and installed a new pro Russian sham government, then IT signed fake illegal treaties with Russia in violation of international laws and multiple binding treaties.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation

Russian masked troops invade and occupy key Crimean locations, including airports and military bases, following Putin's orders.[2][3]
The head of Ukrainian Navy, Admiral Berezovsky, defects, followed later by half of the Ukrainian military stationed in the region.[4][5][6]
Russian forces seize the Supreme Council (Crimean parliament). The Council of Ministers of Crimea is dissolved and a new pro-Russian Prime Minister installed.[7][8]
The new Supreme Council declares the Republic of Crimea to be an independent, self-governing entity, then holds a referendum on the status of Crimea on 16 March, which results in a majority vote to join the Russian Federation.[9]
Treaty signed between the Republic of Crimea and the Russian Federation at the Kremlin on 18 March to formally initiate Crimea's accession to the Russian Federation.[10]
The Ukrainian Armed Forces are evicted from their bases on 19 March by Crimean protesters and Russian troops. Ukraine subsequently announces the withdrawal of its forces from Crimea.[11]
Russia suspended from G8.[12]
International sanctions introduced on Russia.

You sound distinctly Soviet or ridiculously ignorant in your misrepresentation of the situation. They militarily attacked, invaded, and seized their neighbor, so not a bit restrained, they were not invited in by the government and welcomed....or would you insist they are also exceptionally restrained for not attacking and retaking Anchorage Alaska, their only non winter ice bound port in North America, a port clearly more strategically important than Sebastopol and just as Russian?

Spacedog79said:

Lest we forget that Crimea started when we sponsored a violent coup in Ukraine, right on Russia's doorstep. How provocative is that?

The thing to remember about Crimea is that it holds Sevastopol which is a strategically vital port for Russia, it is their only port that isn't ice locked during winter. We knew full well they would have to keep hold of it one way or another, and thankfully Russia found a democratic way of doing it instead of violent.

Under the circumstances I think Russia deserves credit for being so restrained.

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