@transmorpher
so when i point out the historical implications,i am somehow automatically disregarding the inherent problems within islam itself?

and your counter is to not only NOT counter,but refuse to acknowledge the historical ramifications,because that is some political,agenda driven-drivel.

that the ONLY acceptable argument is to focus on the religion itself,and ignore all other considerations,because,again..just tools to be used and abused by the left to fuel the far right.

am i getting this right so far?

that to include history is actually the path that stops that path to move forward?

and here i was still hanging on to that tired old adage "those who refuse to recognize history,are doomed to repeat it".

i am glad that you found those authors so respectful and admired their analysis and dedication to research,but you didn't even bother to use one of THEIR arguments.you simply made claims and then told us you read some books.

dude..now i am just kinda...sad for you.

i am sorry that you are oblivious to your own myopia,and that you are coming across as condescending.yet really haven't posted anything of value that you have to contribute.

you are just pointing the finger and accusing people of their arguments being dishonest,when it appears to me that everyone here has taken the time to try to talk to you,and your replies have been fairly static.

hitchens tried to make the case,and failed in my opinion(i am not the only one),but a case i suspect you are referencing.that even if we took the history of neoliberalism,colonialism and empire building OFF the table.islam would STILL be a gaggle of extremist radicals seeking a one world caliphate.

which is why i referenced dearborn michigan.
it is why i mentioned kabul afghanistan.

we are talking about the radicalization of muslims.
why are they growing?
where do they come from?
why do they seem to be getting more and more extreme?

which many here have attempted to answer,including myself.

but YOU are addressing and entirely different question:
'what is wrong with islam as a religion"

well,a LOT in fact and i already mentioned islams dire need for a reformation,but it goes further than that.you see the epistemology of both judiaism and christianity have been thoroughly argued over and over....and over..that what you find today is a pretty succinct refinement of their respective theologies.

agree/disagree..maybe you are atheist or agnostic,that is not the point.the point is that the so-called "finished' product has pretty clear philosophies,that adherents can easily follow.

for judaism this is in large part to the talmud,which is a living document,where even to this day rabbis debate and argue the finer details.not to be confused with holy scripture the torah.

christianity was forced to acknowledge its failings and flaws,because the theology was weak,and was becoming more and more an amalgamation of other religious beliefs,but most of all,and i think most importantly,the in-fighting with the vatican and the church of england had exposed this weakness,and christianity was on the brink of collapse due to its own hubris and arrogance.

they had no central authority.no leadership that the people could come to in order to clarify scripture.

so thanks to the bravery of martin luther,who risked being labeled a heretic,challenged the political power,which in those days was religious,and so began the process of reformation.

and also ended the dark ages,and western civilization stepped into the "age of enlightenment".

islam has had no such reformation,though is in desperate need of one.they had no council of nicea to decide what was holy canon and what was not,which is why you have more gospels of jesus in the quran than you do in the actual bible.

the king james bible has over 38,000 mis-translations in the old testament alone,whereas the quran has....well...we don't know,because nobody challenges the veracity of the quran.

am i winning you over to my side yet?
still think i am leftist "stooge' and "useful idiot"?

look man,
words are inert.
they are simply symbols.
they are meaningless until we lay eyes on them and GIVE them meaning.

so if you are a violent,war-loving person-------your religion will be violent,and warmongering.

if you are a peaceful and loving person----then your religion will be peaceful and loving.

the problem is NOT religion itself,and i know my atheists really don't want to hear that,but it's true.religion is going nowhere.

the problem is fundamentalist thinking.
the problem is viewing holy scripture as the unerring word of god.
which is why you see creationists attempt,in vain,to convince the rest of us that the earth is only 6,000 yrs old,and their only proof or evidence is a book.

so we all point and laugh.....how silly..6,000yrs old.crazy talk.

but WHY is the creationist so adamant in his attempts to defend his holy text?
because to accept the reality that the earth is not 6,000 yrs old but 14 billion yrs old,is to go against the word of god,and god is unerring,and if the bible is the word of god....and god is unerring.........

now lets go back to dearborn michigan.
if hitchens and harris are RIGHT,then that relatively stable community of muslims are really just extremists waiting for the angels to blow their horn and announce the time for JIHAD!!!

and,to be fair,that is a possibility,but a small one.

why?
because of something the majority of christians experience here in the states,canada,europe,australia...they experience pushback.

does this mean that america does not have radical christians in our midst?

oh lawdy do we ever.

ok ok..i am doing it again.
me and my pedantic self.

suffice to say:
islam IS a problem,even taken as a singular dynamic,that religion has serious issues.
but they are not the ONLY problem,which is what many of here have been trying to talk about.

ALL religions have a problem,and that problem is fundamentalism.which for christianity is a fairly new phenom (less than 100 yrs old) whereas islam has suffered from this mental malady pretty much since its inception.

ok..thats it..im done.pooped,whipped and in need of sleep.

hope i clarified some things with ya mate,but i swear to god if you respond with a reiteration of all your comments.i am going to hunt you down,and BEAT you with a bible,and not that wimpy king james either!
the hefty scofield study bible!

It's the "people in the west do bad things too" argument in a different format.

That's a bit like saying, my car already has a dent so I don't bother driving carefully anymore. And in Germany's case, I now drive with my eyes closed
EDIT: (and Trump has basically banned driving )

And yes, for NewtBoy that is all a false equivalency. The two issues have absolutely nothing to do with each other, and not even remotely relevant to immigration. (But maybe they could be made relevant, and like you've suggested we'll not only send back the pedo priests back to the Vatican we'll take in a progressive Muslim immigrant, it's win win!).

Not that I support one or the other side of this retarded argument...

But in Aus, something like 1 in 3000 Australians of Lebanese descent were accused (not convicted) of being involved in terrorist planning/actions etc. And Australians lost their shit about it.

1 in 20 of Australian Catholic clergy have been convicted of child molestation, which closely matches a US study of 107,000 clergy turning up 1 in 24 odd. No one seemed particularly perturbed...

Pro tip: The west is more concerned about muslims/arabic types because they're brown and strange (to us), even though your child is far more likely to be molested by a pedo than he/she is to be killed in a terror attack. Though I hate using it, seems like a "won't some one think of the children moment".

Hrm, wonder if you can deport catholics back to the Vatican...

Screw the city, Vatican needs to secure land rights for when he dies to make sure it is finished, and that he gets a proper graveside on the premises. They have the money, and they will be hard pressed to find anyone so dedicated.

Your video, War waged against Pope Francis in the heart of Vatican, has made it into the Top 15 New Videos listing. Congratulations on your achievement. For your contribution you have been awarded 1 Power Point.

Cardinal Pietro Parolin, the Vatican’s secretary of state, had this to say about the referendum in Ireland: "I think that you cannot just talk of a defeat for Christian principles, but of a defeat for humanity."

Stay classy, Vatican!

And for you sir indeed, a hearty-handclasp. I would not personally give a thought to not having the Vatican produce one shred of evidence to the contrary and simply begin the end of their empire by any means necessary. Start with the wealthiest countries where they have a foothold and work your way down to the poorest.

Line the fucking carcasses of the city's ordained up for all to see outside The Cathedral of St. Patrick in NYC (now reclaimed for public use) and announce a fire sale next week at the Invasion of Vatican City.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3625970/

Doesn't look like parody at all. Here is some text from the writer's bio:

"After a successful Kickstarter..."

Holy shit, this thing had a Kickstarter? OMG here it is...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jrralls/rpgs-are-evil-dark-dungeons-the-movie

"The movie will make its world premier in Gen Con..."

That is like Christopher Hitchens doing a film premiere at the Vatican. This should be good.

Forced marriage and forbidden divorce have got to be the most prominent form of slavery that still exists in the world. It is as loathsome and shameful as any other kind of slavery. And nations with any respect for human rights shouldn't be tolerant of it just because it's tied up with religious teachings.

And it's not just Muslim nations that are the problem. For example, divorce is illegal in the Philippines, because they are taking their lead from Vatican City, where it's also illegal. That amount of suffering this causes is just staggering.

WHOA! Hijacked the Holy Father's throne, YOINK!

I ain't Catholic but I sure dig how this new pope rolls-He's not stambling around like some sedated stroke-victim either...like the last 3 creepy ones and, he's Argentinian (BBQ's @ Vatican City) and kinna looks like Alan Rickman

@:24-What the kid really wanted-That hand-out of delicious Vatican Swiss Guard Hard Candies

Neuroscience and biochemistry yes. =)

You may not like it, or find it romantic, but it's something we can see and observe.

What evidence do you have to present?

As for science as a religion? Nah, it doesn't work like that. Science is a series of conclusions based on observations (very watered down term.) If things happen that change our observations, we change our conclusions. When is the last time something religious or spiritual changed how they think. It happens a lot in science. In a counter point, it took the vatican about 400 years to apologize to Galileo. =)

I'm not saying it can't happen. I'm saying there is no evidence to support what you're saying. Because there are processes in the brain that we can see and observe and form opinion off of.

If you have a way or process that can show some fact/proof/observations off of spirituality, I'd love to see them. It's the same thing with ghost hunters, in the history of the world and people, the answer to anything has never been ghosts. =)

Well, pope is kind a right. The point is, if you have not heard of jesus, you have a chance. If you have and don't do what vatican says, you have no chance. Ignorance is bliss. Also the most important point of me leaving religion 20 years ago, just by telling me stuff, they take away my free will.

Wait. I thought the Pope was the King of Vatican City. Me thinks the King needs to get his subjects in line with some ol' fashioned Inquisition-style torture right about now. I'd pay-per-view that.

So... Vatican city is kind of like the corporate nation-states in Snow Crash, presumably complete with franchulates.