I imagine he's one of the Israelites paid by Israel to smother social media in pro-Israel anti-Palestine propaganda that were recently reported on.

Also, the US sends Israel BILLIONS of dollars and they spend quite a bit of it on rockets that actually blow up hundreds of Palestinians....
Palestinian rockets are basically large fireworks that can only kill with a direct hit on a person, Israeli rockets are high tech, guided rockets with high explosives that have repeatedly hit known civilian targets sometimes killing hundreds in a single shot, and this kind of rocket almost NEVER misses the target they're aimed at....sooooo.
(Oh, and then there's the system the US gave Israel, but not Palestine, that shoots down 99.95% of the 'rockets' that exceedingly rarely actually kill anyone on the rare occasions when they do manage to hit ground)
Ya' don't care much about that shit though.

99.9% of the knuckleheads commenting here negatively about Israel have never read, let alone heard of, books like Andrew Bostom's Legacy of Jihad and Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism. Or From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters. Or a book I just started, A Lethal Obsession by Robert Wistrich. Thing is I'm one of these "hope springs eternal" guys because I keep thinking people are like me who was once about as close to being a card carrying member of the KKK as you can be without actually being one. Until I read some books like Malcolm X. Black Like Me and others. While I was in Jr. High getting jumped by black kids trying to punch and stomp my guts out. The useful idiots limit this "conflict" to simply Muslims against Jews yet its a lot more profound than that:

Supplemental Article “The First and Last Enemy: Jew Hatred in Islam.” by Bostom (Frontpage Magazine archive)
http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=28549

People just refuse to acknowledge the Jew-Hatred that is part of a Muslims DNA. Don't believe what those Interfaith frauds tell you. "Moderate" or not; if you don't hate Jews you're not a true Muslim. If you don't believe that please explain the hatred that is like a disease in Gaza. And if you have half a brain you know it's been there LONG before Israel won its Independence.

The Depravity of the Homicide Bomber’s Recruiters (Frontpage Magazine)
http://www.frontpagemag.com/2011/david-meir-levi/the-depravity-of-the-homicide-bomber%E2%80%99s-recruiters/

Female Homicide Bomber (suicide) You Tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22XEkJY62VA

Failed Suicide Bomber Hopes for Another Chance to Kill (You Tube)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpXm9hvXroc

Jihad & Terrorism Studies Project September 26, 2002 Special Report No.10 Fiday Sermons in Saudi Mosques: Review and Analysis (MEMRI)
(This is from Saudi Arabia. Same with an article on Islam Sheikh bin Humaid that I read and am submitting below.)
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/736.htm

Islam's Hatred of the Non-Muslim by David Bukay (Middle East Forum)
http://www.meforum.org/3545/islam-hatred-non-muslim

Guest Column: Palestinian TV Teaches Kids The Way to 'Jihad Street' by Abigail R. Esman (Investigative Project)
http://www.investigativeproject.org/4394/guest-column-palestinian-tv-teaches-kids-the-way

Hamas to kids: Shoot all the Jews (Jihad Watch)
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/05/hamas-to-kids-shoot-all-the-jews

Farfour "martyred" by Israelis in final episode (You Tube video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrieBhaGgHM

MEMRI Transcript: Farfour, Hamas' Mickey Mouse Character, Is 'Martyred' in the Final Episode of the "Pioneers of Tomorrow" Children's Show on Hamas Al-Aqsa TV
http://www.memri.org/report/en/print2274.htm

Children as combatants: Motivating children to seek Shahada
http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=846

Camp Jihad UN/US Palestine Probaganda and brainwashing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbrafPTe_LQ#at=211

Hamas Summer Camps: Fun, Sun and Guns by Aryeh Savir 7-13-14 (Breaking Israel News)
http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/17721/hamas-summer-camps-fun-sun-guns-photos/#t18RPE7WusjewHqd.97

Michael Coren & David Harris - Palestinian terrorist training camps for kids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtsZXCLD1Lc

“She's Buried Chest High” (You Tube video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXdy5Fwwfzg

The "Right of Return" Is Suicide for Israel by Jonathan Schanzer (MEF)
http://www.meforum.org/334/the-right-of-return-is-suicide-for-israel

The History of the Middle East Conflict in 11 Minutes (You Tube)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZY8m0cm1oY

“Letter to the Editor” International Herald Tribune, July 1, 2003 by Giulia Boukhobza (Also in Bostom's “Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism” book: Chapter 68, page 677: "A Libyan Jew Breaks Her Silence 36 yrs after surviving the 67 Tripolitan Pogrom")
Congressional Record
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CREC-2003-09-04/pdf/CREC-2003-09-04-pt1-PgE1682-2.pdf#page=1

I think the only people who rode in on anybody are the Israelis, just saying.

And for your definition of restraint I have this eye opener for you:

http://blog.thomsonreuters.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/israel-palestine.jpg

Red is palestinian death, blue is israeli death.

I don't know enough about the situation in Palestine, or what kinds of laws are imposed from outside there, but just hypothetically, I wonder: what if they renounced all initiation of violence altogether, and just dropped the push to set up their own state? What if, instead they declared their territories to be "state-free" and "tax free havens?" Maybe they could open some casinos a la Native Americans; and provide some tax-free banking; let tech giants set up tax-free research centers there without all of the immigration restrictions that seem to impose so many unnecessary challenges.. And what if, instead of waging war or attacking Israel, they simply used any military capabilities they had to set up private security firms, and secure their banking system, maybe provide some safe gold depositories? In a generation or two, the Israelis would see that they are the ones living in a prison/tax farm, not the Palestinians. I wonder if they could get away with it...


It's interesting to me how some folks tend to (more or less) "take sides" in defense of states (or would-be states) in conflicts like this one. As if states somehow had "rights" or as if states somehow represented "the people" within each state. That is simply, prima facie, false: For one thing, I think armed conflict on any sort of large scale inflicts violence against innocent parties on both sides; who, in their own rights, have reason to see the other side's violent acts as aggression (or at least as material threats to their human rights).

So I certainly agree that Israelis have a right not to have rockets coming at them, but it also seems to me that individual Palestinians have a right not to be collateral damage in Israel's bombings. Surely the hundreds who've lost family in Gaza have reason to be angry at Hamas, but you could see why they too would want to defend themselves.

The logic of war often leads to a situation where if you can defend one side fighting, you have to see why the other side would fight as well. And so we can condemn both sides, or sympathize with the innocent victims of both sides, but I don't see any simple formulation that shows why people who happen to live on one side of an arbitrary line have more of a "right" to respond violently to attacks that threaten their lives than the other side has.

The United States commits many forms of aggression quite frequently. In revenge, terrorists murdered innocent Americans on 9/11. Those Americans had a right not to be attacked and as Americans, we have a right to defend ourselves. But if tactics our government employs hurt third parties, doesn't it seem that the logic of collective self defense could easily be used to justify perpetual war?

None of what I say relies on any assumption that Hamas is any less criminal than the Israeli state. Even if it's much more criminal than the Israeli state, it seems to me that collective defense = perpetual war, because of the innocents on both sides who seem to have no way of striking against belligerents without violence that itself puts innocent people in harm's way.

They may be rare (I doubt it), but last time I checked, Israel is a democracy. The people keep voting in people who aggressively attack and expand in to what little is left to the Palestinians. Standing by and pleading ignorance is not good enough.

I did not call Israel the 4th Reich, I said the 4th Reich is alive and well in Israel. I'm sure not every person cheered on the Nazi's either, but we don't really make that distinction often when talking about the 3rd Reich because it led, and most people either followed or allowed it to lead. The fact that Palestine, a country in name only, is basically the largest concentration camp in the world strikes a disturbing parallel.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with a hell of a lot of what you say in your post, and you seem to be a reasonable and grounded person when it comes to this topic, but Israel has constantly held the upper hand since it's inception, backed by even bigger friends. If it were two kids in the schoolyard, we'd call em out for exactly what they are, a bully, and a cowardly one at that.

Honestly. Seriously... honestly... what is a greater danger to the average Israeli? Rockets... or a car accident. How many Israelis died last week. How many were automobile related? How many were heart disease? How many were cancer? How many were rockets? I'm guessing you already know how these dangers rank in the death toll.

I don't support either side in this. But, to say the suffering in Israel is even in the ballpark of what is being felt in Palestine is just silly. Please allow facts room to breath, regardless of your prejudices. We all have these prejudices. Please... please... just don't encourage them.

I would argue it's a manifestation of the same kind of thinking. Those Israelis believe the Gazan's are simply reaping what they sowed by supporting Hamas and therefore withhold compassion. Conversely, Hamas thinks it's okay to lob rockets at Israelis because the Israelis have occupied Palestine and set up the most egregious apartheid system in history (or as the UN Humanitarian Chief John Holmes called it in 2010, the world's largest "open air prison.").

Both sides have lost compassion for the other and that's why the violence continues unabated.

You missed a few parts there...3 teens killed, Israel CLAIMS by Hamas, but Hamas never takes credit (and they love to take credit). Israel immediately bombs Palestine mercilessly AND 1 Palestinian teen kidnapped and burned alive by Israeli soldiers (there's no such thing as an Israeli civilian), AND another Palestinian teen is ACCUSED BY ISRAEL of throwing gas bombs only AFTER they are caught on tape beating and stomping the hell out of him while he's handcuffed and completely subdued. Hamas then retaliates with 1/1000 the force returned by Israel. Egypt, an enemy of Palestine, and Israel make a show of calling for a 'ceasefire' on 100% their terms without even talking to Hamas, then claims it's Hamas that won't cease. Israel continues launching more guided missiles at beaches, hospitals, and old folks homes, killing hundreds of civilians and then invades in full force, killing hundreds more, while Hamas shoots hundreds of essentially fireworks causing extremely minor damage and 1 eventual death....yet you think Hamas is the big bad guy and Israel is the poor innocent whipping boy.....Um.....just DUH.
Hamas started it IF AND ONLY IF YOU BELIEVE ONLY ISRAELI PROPAGANDA, but if you look dispassionately at the known facts, that's simply BS, Israel invaded first, shot first and continues to shoot more and more disastrously at civilians while whining 'we have to defend ourselves' (from the useless fireworks the Palestinian devils are shooting at us), which should really mean turning on the missile defense system.
What they are doing it offensive, not defensive....and I'm offended!

The Palestinian boy was burned alive:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/05/palestinian-boy-mohammed-abu-khdeir-burned-alive

Israel has Gaza under siege, what are they suppose to do, role over and die?

The cease fire agreement is just ploy. Israel and Egyptian government are both unfriendly to Palestine. Would you agree to sign a contract written by your enemies without any representation from your side.

At the point that Israeli soldier was killed the ground invasion had already began, what would anyone except?

Can you name any other conflict in which they count the number of ammunition fired by one side? If you can't, its because conflicts are never reported that way. It is a talking point from Netanyahu's propaganda scripts and you shouldn't trust a source that just reads propaganda.

Actually I have seen the opposite, this 'fringe' as you call it being the norm, but being hidden from view as they understand it looks bad to cheer a hospital being bombed, but they can't help themselves.
As you noted, empathy is never a concern, forgotten in the good times, actively fought against in the bad.
Again, I disagree that this is a 'fringe' element of Israel, from everything I've seen, and those I have spoken to directly (including family members that work for the consulate) the eradication of Palestine and it's people are something they would love to see. The tiny minority dissenting are usually attacked, beaten, arrested, and often disappeared. We have seen this repeatedly in recent times.
Yeah, it's the oppression of Hamas that's the main controlling issue for the Palestinians, not the oppression of the occupying nation to the right....NOT. Many Palestinians are vocal about wanting peace...but not so in Israel, where a dissenting voice is quickly and violently silenced....like here.
http://videosift.com/video/Young-American-Jew-Stands-up-for-Palestine
As a people that suffered due to this tribalism, you might think they would understand it's foibles and avoid them, instead they have jumped head first into it themselves....making themselves akin to a fourth right.

EDIT: as an aside, it seems odd to me that all those claiming Israel has a 'right to defend itself' have already forgotten that Israel fired the first volley, so I hope after being reminded of that fact, they will admit that really Palestine has the 'right to defend itself', while Israel is the aggressor....right?

I find this to be the most difficult subject to tackle when it comes to breaking through the bullshit. No matter what facts there are you're always considered wrong, and so are the Palestinians. There are so many true believers in this and misinformation out there that you can't have an argument about this subject at all it seems.

So it's very important we have clear, concise, and intelligent reporting. NBC had that, so they pulled him out. You can't ask these sorts of questions in polite company, it's not allowed. NBC show'd how subservient to power they are in such an obvious way it's laughable. People talk about Fox news all the time, and yeah they're pretty stupid at times. The entire media has a problem though, and it's plain to see anytime something like this happens.

I wait patiently and study constantly for the day when we are allowed to talk about the Israel/Palestine conflict candidly and honestly. Right now whenever a discussion happens there's no give whatsoever. Israel is right, and they're doing the right thing, not even a misstep. I think in any position over the course of history, that can't possibly be correct. No government is 100% right and just, but don't tell their supporters that.

This situation is sad and ironic.

The area known as Judea was renamed Palestine during the time of Roman emperor Hadrian.
The residents of Judea/Palestine were forced to convert from Judaism to Christianity around 400 ad by the Romans, and later in the 700's ad were forced to convert to Islam.
They never left. They just changed religions. The children of the Jews of the new testament, are the Palestinians of today (now practicing Islam).

Many years passed, the Eastern Roman empire resided over much of the area, ruled out of Turkey, and the region was more or less all-right. Along the way it changed names to the Ottoman empire.

After WW1, the Ottoman empire shrank dramatically, and renamed itself to simply Turkey. However it still held some lands that were not actually Turkish (eg. ~Syria), and was still a mini-empire.
Around this general time period, Palestine became a British colony.

During WW2, there were many displaced Europeans of Jewish faith that had nowhere to go.
(*Britain didn't want them either, most places didn't. Anti-Semitism was rather common at the time. Even the Nazi eugenics policy wasn't much criticized at the time. re: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics#Supporters_and_critics. Actually, the Nazi's strong association with anti-semitism + all the anti-Nazi propaganda during WW2, helped cure a lot of anti-semitism in Europe.).
In the late 1940's Britain split occupied Palestine into smaller-Palestine+Israel, and assisted in relocating WW2 displaced Europeans of Jewish faith to Israel. Which at face value made sense, because "the bible says Jews are from Judea". However the area from which was established Israel was more or less ~devoid of followers of the Jewish faith in the 1940's.
And that's the irony! The British creation of Israel involved taking land from Palestinians (i.e. The children of the original Jews of Judea), and giving it to Europeans of Jewish faith (foreign immigrants).

That then resulted in middle-eastern resentment and backlash over western invasion/occupation/seisure-of-land. This resentment against immigrating European Jews caused 'Jews at large' to be discriminated against throughout the middle-east, and that in turn led to a migration wave of regional-Jews from the surrounding areas into Israel.
This resulted in a concentration of Jewish-faithed immigrants of European and middle-eastern ethnicity, all in Israel - further displacing the original residents.

Basically, in the end, the original people of Judea were kicked out of their homes and their lands given to immigrants... and they really resent it. While in the mean time the immigrants acclaim to have a god given right to be there because there is some old paper that says that people of their faith are from the area.

Ta-da.

Britain could have just sent Europeans of Jewish faith to Palestine, and made it an integrated nation.
But nope, they had to displace people and create a bunch more problems.
Gee, thanks Britain.
I pretty much face-palm when I hear "this conflict is thousands of years old" (when it's only been ~66 years).


Note :
I make the distinction between ethnically Jewish and religiously Jewish.
I use the phrase "Europeans of Jewish faith" to clarify that these were displaced Europeans, who may have had an ancestor or two way way way up the family tree that was from Judea - but were otherwise European and of Jewish faith - who may have lived in an area with little mingling with outsiders, and hence a visually distinct appearance (i.e. what made it possible to make visual caricatures of their people, such as : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eternal_Jew_%281940_film%29)
You can also play semantics with "what is ethnically Jewish, when the ethnicity is labelled after the faith", etc.

There's also the geopolitical aspect. Israel is the only "Western" nation in the middle-east. Given that the area is globally significant in terms of resources, that makes Israel a critically important ally. So the rhetoric will always lean.

Personally, I wonder if the things that European Jews suffered during WW2, didn't create some mental/emotional baggage that today plays itself out with how they treat Palestinians. Sort of a "I don't care about your suffering, because I've been through worse" kind of situation.

However, I understand how Israel does not want an open integrated society with Palestinians. The Jewish population is rather small, and in an integrated society they would be such a small proportion that they would essentially be bred out of existence within a few generations. For those who wish to preserve their culture, that's 'kind of a big deal'.

-scheherazade

What do you expect...speak against Israel, or for Palestine, get harassed, arrested, beaten, strangled, hogtied, and 'disappeared'. His face already looked horribly swollen and miss-shaped as they shoved him in the truck...probably the last time we'll ever see him. I would guess we'll see an announcement that he committed suicide in jail in the next few days.
It seems to me that Israel itself is doing it's utmost to give it's detractors ammunition in their argument against supporting Israel's actions. I can't say I have ever heard of a move by Israel I could agree with, or that wasn't antagonistically bullying it's neighbors, then whining and crying like a 3 year old spoiled rotten little girl if anyone returns the favor.
For a group of people that were viciously attacked and decimated, they certainly have no qualms about doing the same to others. They long ago lost the moral high ground, as their insistence on doing to others what they complain was done to them has made them the 'bad guy' consistently.
I'm not an anti-Semitic, but I am totally an anti-Zionist. I don't feel at all alone in that sentiment.