No, they were right to hang up on him (though perhaps shouldn't have taken his call). I just see this sort of thing a lot. The existence or non-existence of god is perhaps one of the most fascinating debates there can be (and it's not so simple provided you're not trying to argue for the existence of some specific god, and it involving a lot of interesting physics and metaphysics), but these sorts of internet things always seem to wind up with a dumb christian saying "because the bible/god/whatever says so..." and a dumb atheist, well, even trying to engage in that sort of debate.

True, I shouldn't really fault these particular presenters because I didn't see the rest of their show, and there are various social/political issues that could be discussed at this level of simplicity, but it seem quite a bit like many others I've seen: the athiests believe what they believe and the christians believe what they believe, and trying to have arguments about beliefs is pretty pointless and brings out the uglier, intolerant sides in each.

almost wish they didn't hang up on him, typically when someone calls a show, you're supposed to turn down the show so you don't get feedback, so there is a good chance that because he hung up on him, he didn't get to hear Matt calling him a piece of shit

@shinyblurry

The facts are simple: the existence of God explains everything that you feel about wanting to do good, and the love that you have for people and life, and your atheism denies it. Yet you embrace what is contrary to your own experience.

AND from farther down

… your atheistic presuppositions about reality. You say no one has come back but one man has, but of course you dismiss the account as fantasy (again because of your atheistic presuppositions).

Those aren't facts though. Those are your opinions and conjectures. Your theory of God may explain a greater number of things around me than science, but it also raises more questions than it answers, which makes it a horrible theory. "My atheism" doesn't exist as a concept. I don't subscribe to any belief about Gods any more than a monkey does. Are monkeys atheistic? I'm like a monkey. I have no "-ism" that "denies" anything. I happen to lack belief in any supernatural deity. *This lack of belief defines my atheism, rather than atheism defining my lack of beliefs.* I can't believe you still don't understand my position (or lack thereof). I have no idea what you mean by embrace. Nothing about my experience with "meaningfulness" requires me to believe in any gods, particularly not Yahweh.

So if it makes you feel good its okay to be a slave? You don't mind being enslaved to a mindless irrational process because you get rewarded for it like a rat activating a feeder?

Chemicals in my brain cause me to feel hunger and crave food. I follow them because doing so makes me feel good. I don't consider myself weak for being driven by those chemicals in my brain. To really feel like a slave, I'd have to be compelled to follow the commands of a sentient being, like a plantation owner with a whip, or a god of love threatening me with eternal torture, for instance, not chemicals in my own brain. Can there be shame in being a slave to yourself?

So I will modify this and say that you're living like a theist does but denying it with your atheism.

You changed one word, but missed the point of mine, so I've changed the same word: So I would turn it around and say instead that it's Christians *theists* who go about their lives living like normal humans, but thinking they're being good because their religion tells them to.

Now what?

Therefore what you're talking about is a herd morality.

Yep. Pretty much.

The entire point of my example was to show that if we simply have a herd morality where the majority tells us what is good and evil, then if the majority ever said child rape is good it would be.

If your whole final end goal is to prove your child rape hypothetical is internally consistent, and not to extend it into the real world, then yep, that's logically quite true. However, if you want to use it make any point about proving my beliefs to be somehow wrong, then you'll have to give me reason to believe it could ever possibly happen in a sustainable way.

My point was that we all come pre-programmed with a need for worship, which you apparently agree with. That is what is natural to us … It is actually more natural for us to rebel against God because of our corrupt nature.

Are we programmed to worship, or to rebel against God? Which is it? I propose that we're genetically designed to do exactly what makes us happy. Being good to others makes us (non-psychos) happy. Worship also makes many of us happy. Cognitive dissonance does not. I don't believe in any god, so I can't possibly worship one with a straight face. That would be cognitively dissonant and make me unhappy. I see no need to introduce the concept of "corruption".

The sense we agreed upon and have been discussing is that that life without God is meaningless … Therefore the meaning you derive from your feelings is only an illusion created by chemical reactions in your brain.

All cognition, from self-awareness, to thought, to the senses, to desires, to emotions, to numinous experiences, all of it is 100% chemical reactions. It's only fair to call my conscience an "illusion" if I also consider everything else that I perceive to be an illusion created by the chemicals in my mind. My feelings are as subjectively real as my senses.

There are other causes of depression but you see my point. Hope is the solution to depression.

That can be true. It's human nature to want to worship, and worshipping something can give hope. So for some people, if they can convince themselves to believe it, worshipping a god can lift them out of depression.

On what basis do you say your belief is more likely?

Occam's razor.

You say there is no reason to speculate (ever); now that is an interesting statement from someone who believes in open inquiry. What you've said is actually the death of inquiry. And let's be clear about this; you have speculated.

If there's no way to establish the truth of something, then there's no sense in trying to do so. There are no reliable records of the afterlife, so hoping to reach a conclusion is a vain pursuit. You can imagine hypotheticals, but you can't give any rationale for preferring one over another. Except by Occam's razor. What you consider "speculation" is just me saying, "nothing disproves anything about the afterlife".

Of course anything is possible when you summon your magic genie of evolution. "Time itself performs the miracles for you."

It's scientific fact, not mine, not anyone's. It's yours too, if you want it. You just have to go and learn about it from an unbiased source, not from uninformed people with pre-conceived ideas about what it is and isn't.

So no one is really bad?

In the relative non-objective morality sense, no, nobody is inherently bad or "evil" apart from our judgement of their actions. We often call people "bad", but that's just shorthand for what I said, or for having difficulty accepting that another person can do something so contrary to our concept of good.

Well, I'm fairly sure you've told me before that you hate the idea of God telling you what to do.

True, I would resent anybody giving me free will, then giving me a choice of doing what they say or accepting the worst conceivable torture for eternity. Did I misunderstand something?

[me:]Does the bible that say that rape is wrong? Does it say you cannot marry a child?

[you:]I've covered this above, but I will also add that if we had evolved differently, then in your worldview, all of this would be moot. We are only in this particular configuration because of circumstance, and not design. It could just as easily be 1000 different other ways. There could easily be scenarios where we evolved to exploit children instead of nuture them.

For a species to evolve to exploit children rather than nurture them is nearly impossible. That gene would get weeded out of the gene pool very quickly. Maybe I'm missing your point, and what you're really trying to say is that according to me, human feelings about right and wrong are, at their essence, random, because humans could have developed different feelings about right and wrong. I agree.

Back to my question: Does the Bible say that rape is wrong? Does it say that you cannot marry a child? To save time, could you point me to a neat summary of all the biblical rules that still stand? The Commandments were given in the Old Testament. I thought that law was struck down and there was a new covenant now, no? No sex before marriage is one, I'm assuming. Do you have to attend mass on Sundays? What are the others? I'm surprised to hear that you don't think the Bible suggests any position on condom usage. Is that just a Catholic hang-up then?

[me:]In both cases, you didn't address my point. 1) I'm stating that Yahweh's laws are far, far more complex than secular morality. You countered that Yahweh's laws were as simple as Jesus' two rules.

[you:]Romans 13:9-10

I agree that the rules in that verse are clearly derived from "love your neighbour", except maybe coveting, but that's not the point. Once I see the summary of biblical edicts, I'm sure I'll be able to point out that "Love your neighbour" isn't enough, that there are rules you would only follow because they're stated in the Bible, not because they obviously flow from the concept of neighbourly love.

So, when we think about doing unto others, we would think about it in the context of how Jesus taught us to behave.

So you're saying that we have to adjust our conscience first to align with the Bible, and then follow it. I'm saying we can just follow it according to what is bad for people.

abortion statistics

Good point. Foetal rights/women's rights is the moral debate of our times, IMO, maybe of all history. I haven't found any solid position on that issue. I've thought a lot about it, but this isn't the place to debate it. Suffice it to say I don't see abortion as a good thing, but not equal to infanticide either.

So your answer is yes? You think that without religion, society may decide torturing babies is good because it decided that killing Jews was good?

Yes, I think an entire society could end up agreeing on something that depraved, just like the ancient Greek society approved of paedophilia.

You know Germans were 94% Christian during WWII, right? And that the Greeks had those relations consensually? I'm against legalizing sex with children because it would be abused and children would be victimized, not because I think it's impossible for a child to enjoy and benefit from sex. I did it when I was underage and it was nothing but good.

You also act as if I am trying to defend all religion, which I'm not.

The thing is, you regularly invoke the 85% of humans who are theist when having a large number bolsters your argument, yet you disassociate yourself from most of them when their behaviour weakens your argument. I can never tell who you're talking about. Clearly identify the people you're talking about at all times, and we won't have this problem.

In any case, there are many examples of non-believing societies doing sick and depraved things to their populations.

And many Christian societies too, but I'm sure you'll disassociate yourselves from *those* Christians.

Tortured for Christ

According to Jesus, the Romanian government was appointed by God, so those Christians must have been doing something wrong, perhaps rebelling:

Romans 13:1-5

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.

That passage, BTW, makes my stomach turn for all the people (Christian or otherwise) who have been tortured and killed at the hands of immoral rulers. And Jesus says might makes right. Go Jesus go. Prick.

[you:]… logic, rationality, morality, uniformity in nature …

[me:]You're slipping back into solipsism. We agreed not to go there. I'm not going to answer any of those things.

[you:]Now you're just trying to duck the issue, and perhaps you don't understand what solipsism is, because this is not solipsism. Solipsism is the belief that only your mind is sure to exist.

What I am talking about is right in line with the video. Without God you don't have any ultimate justification not just for any kind of value, but even for your own reasoning. It is a direct implication of a meaningless existence. This is what I mean about a justifies b justifies c justifies d into infinity. You have nowhere to stake a claim which can justify anything which you experience, or even your own rationality. If you feel you do, please demonstrate why you believe your reasoning is actually valid.

Then you've entirely missed the point of me making those rules back at Qualiasoup v. Craig.

We agreed not to question the validity of our senses. If I can trust my senses, then I am self-aware. I must assume I'm a rational agent, since it was my own rational awareness that defined my self. If I'm a rational agent, then I can trust logic, which Craig tells us in the same video is a rational thing to do.

If your whole argument is, "a god must exist for you to be able to use logic" then I put it to you to show me logically (and not tautologically) why that must be true. To me, there's no connection.

I still don't see the infinite regression. Give me a real example of it in the form a justifies b which justifies c....

Also, what's "uniformity in nature" and when do I ever appeal to it?

Most stuff, I'd agree the warranty is probably useless. My only real hang up on saying it's bullshit in all circumstances is televisions. They have so many things that can wrong with them, but not be completely broken or unusable that the warranty can be handy, plus it's cost a fortune to ship something big like a TV.


Speakers might be similar since they tend to be heavy, but TVs with dead pixels and what not.. the in-store warranty's or third party warranty's have a decent chance of saving you from being stuck with a TV with a weird spot on the screen that doesn't quite fit the dead pixel count policy of the MFG.

Laptops would be the second, but only if you are buying a really expensive gaming laptop. The ones that run just short of catching on fire heat wise...because components cant' hold up to that kind of heat. So you're pretty much guaranteed a new computer under the warranty if you use it a lot and are a little negligent on keeping it on a cooling pad or keeping dust out of out. Plus they get phased out so fast, 2-3 years down the line you'll be getting a pretty significant upgrade more than likely.

My mother in law was called by one of these dickheads. Luckily she thought it sounded a little odd and called me while she was on the phone to them... and I told her to hang up.

Just scary the mindset of these lowlifes

I've had an idea. You just need to sift 2000 vids to get Galaxy, then your custom icon can be the probie's red P.

Whaddayathink?
>> ^probie:

>> ^dag:
This is kind of against the idea of a meritrocratic site like us.>> ^probie:
Would it be possible for probationary members to promote videos? Admittedly, I don't think of things from the admin side of the Sift, so I'm mot sure what harm it could potentially cause, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask.


Yeah, I kind of figured the idea was to entice people into being part of the community. I suppose one day I'll hang up my big red P....not yet though. Thanks for the quick reply.

>> ^dag:

This is kind of against the idea of a meritrocratic site like us.>> ^probie:
Would it be possible for probationary members to promote videos? Admittedly, I don't think of things from the admin side of the Sift, so I'm mot sure what harm it could potentially cause, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask.



Yeah, I kind of figured the idea was to entice people into being part of the community. I suppose one day I'll hang up my big red P....not yet though. Thanks for the quick reply.

@nanrod I have red hair. I wouldn't call it a normal trait. I suppose I might use the word common, although with some sort of qualifier, i.e. "fairly common" or "common enough." It isn't normal though. Neither is homosexuality. If "celebrating differences" means calling every difference "normal" then that doesn't seem like much of a celebration. I don't know why you have such a hang up about the abnormal. To me that is all in your interpretation. Some of us like the freaky people. Some of us would rather not be referred to as normal. What's wrong with being a bit strange?

See that ladies and gentlemen: DON'T HAVE CHILDREN! They'll not only slow your own dreams, but the dreams of hundreds of other people.>> ^lucky760:

Just FYI, the biggest hang-up with the birth of VS5 is yours truly. I originally wanted to rebuild VS from scratch using my much better PHP framework that I've developed over the past 2+ years, however parenthood, my full-time job, and my part-time job have been a black hole of time, so it would probably take me more than a year to follow through with that plan, so VS5 will just evolve from this old relic.
VS5 will be my focus once I'm through with the current massive project that I've been working on for over a year now. (But then when baby #2 arrives in October, I'm sure my development time will vanish again.)
So, in short, everyone hang in there and bear with us and VS4. I am but one man and as I always do, I'll work my buns off for the betterment of we, our community, as fast as I possibly can.
Thanks for your patience!

Just FYI, the biggest hang-up with the birth of VS5 is yours truly. I originally wanted to rebuild VS from scratch using my much better PHP framework that I've developed over the past 2+ years, however parenthood, my full-time job, and my part-time job have been a black hole of time, so it would probably take me more than a year to follow through with that plan, so VS5 will just evolve from this old relic.

VS5 will be my focus once I'm through with the current massive project that I've been working on for over a year now. (But then when baby #2 arrives in October, I'm sure my development time will vanish again.)

So, in short, everyone hang in there and bear with us and VS4. I am but one man and as I always do, I'll work my buns off for the betterment of we, our community, as fast as I possibly can.

Thanks for your patience!

For the record, I believe blankfist is in on this still. Just so you understand where my suspicion is coming from, the day after I outed his last sockpuppet I got strange area code hang ups on my phone and a text asking if I was 'mypasswordispretty'. I pressed the texter for more details and he said the number had been posted on reddit, though there was no record of the number or account when I got home to check. With such suspicious timing, think it's fair to assume there is a connection. Shortly after this the cat crew got going and left comments for both issy and I, which I found odd.

Also, if you compare youtube comments to VS comments, playhouse pals appears to be doing a bad impersonation of his youtube counterpart, not to mention the disparity in volume of comments.

youtube comments over the past year.

http://www.youtube.com/comment_search?so=date&q=RockyBDemilleFan

Videosift comments over the last week.

http://videosift.com/usercomments/PlayhousePals

And what about this guy?...
http://videosift.com/talk/Blankfists-new-sock-puppets?loadcomm=1#comment-1432626

Anyway, just thought I'd add my opinion on all this.

Congratulations!
Today is your day.
You're off to Great Places!
You're off and away!

You have brains in your head.
You have feet in your shoes
You can steer yourself
any direction you choose.
You're on your own. And you know what you know.
And YOU are the guy who'll decide where to go.

You'll look up and down streets. Look 'em over with care.
About some you will say, "I don't choose to go there."
With your head full of brains and your shoes full of feet,
you're too smart to go down any not-so-good street.

And you may not find any
you'll want to go down.
In that case, of course,
you'll head straight out of town.

It's opener there
in the wide open air.

Out there things can happen
and frequently do
to people as brainy
and footsy as you.

And when things start to happen,
don't worry. Don't stew.
Just go right along.
You'll start happening too.

OH!
THE PLACES YOU'LL GO!

You'll be on your way up!
You'll be seeing great sights!
You'll join the high fliers
who soar to high heights.

You won't lag behind, because you'll have the speed.
You'll pass the whole gang and you'll soon take the lead.
Wherever you fly, you'll be the best of the best.
Wherever you go, you will top all the rest.

Except when you don't
Because, sometimes, you won't.

I'm sorry to say so
but, sadly, it's true
and Hang-ups
can happen to you.

You can get all hung up
in a prickle-ly perch.
And your gang will fly on.
You'll be left in a Lurch.

You'll come down from the Lurch
with an unpleasant bump.
And the chances are, then,
that you'll be in a Slump.

And when you're in a Slump,
you're not in for much fun.
Un-slumping yourself
is not easily done.

You will come to a place where the streets are not marked.
Some windows are lighted. But mostly they're darked.
A place you could sprain both your elbow and chin!
Do you dare to stay out? Do you dare to go in?
How much can you lose? How much can you win?

And IF you go in, should you turn left or right...
or right-and-three-quarters? Or, maybe, not quite?
Or go around back and sneak in from behind?
Simple it's not, I'm afraid you will find,
for a mind-maker-upper to make up his mind.

You can get so confused
that you'll start in to race
down long wiggled roads at a break-necking pace
and grind on for miles across weirdish wild space,
headed, I fear, toward a most useless place.
The Waiting Place...

...for people just waiting.
Waiting for a train to go
or a bus to come, or a plane to go
or the mail to come, or the rain to go
or the phone to ring, or the snow to snow
or waiting around for a Yes or a No
or waiting for their hair to grow.
Everyone is just waiting.

Waiting for the fish to bite
or waiting for wind to fly a kite
or waiting around for Friday night
or waiting, perhaps, for their Uncle Jake
or a pot to boil, or a Better Break
or a string of pearls, or a pair of pants
or a wig with curls, or Another Chance.
Everyone is just waiting.

NO!
That's not for you!

Somehow you'll escape
all that waiting and staying.
You'll find the bright places
where Boom Bands are playing.

With banner flip-flapping,
once more you'll ride high!
Ready for anything under the sky.
Ready because you're that kind of a guy!

Oh, the places you'll go! There is fun to be done!
There are points to be scored. there are games to be won.
And the magical things you can do with that ball
will make you the winning-est winner of all.
Fame! You'll be famous as famous can be,
with the whole wide world watching you win on TV.

Except when they don't.
Because, sometimes, they won't.

I'm afraid that some times
you'll play lonely games too.
Games you can't win
'cause you'll play against you.

All Alone!
Whether you like it or not,
Alone will be something
you'll be quite a lot.

And when you're alone, there's a very good chance
you'll meet things that scare you right out of your pants.
There are some, down the road between hither and yon,
that can scare you so much you won't want to go on.

But on you will go
though the weather be foul
On you will go
though your enemies prowl
On you will go
though the Hakken-Kraks howl
Onward up many
a frightening creek,
though your arms may get sore
and your sneakers may leak.

On and on you will hike
and I know you'll hike far
and face up to your problems
whatever they are.

You'll get mixed up, of course,
as you already know.
You'll get mixed up
with many strange birds as you go.
So be sure when you step.
Step with care and great tact
and remember that Life's
a Great Balancing Act.
Just never forget to be dexterous and deft.
And never mix up your right foot with your left.

And will you succeed?
Yes! You will, indeed!
(98 and 3/4 percent guaranteed.)

KID, YOU'LL MOVE MOUNTAINS!

So...
be your name Buxbaum or Bixby or Bray
or Mordecai Ali Van Allen O'Shea,
you're off to Great Places!
Today is your day!
Your mountain is waiting.
So...get on your way!

I remember when I was in school there during one of the past riots. There were photo screen caps of the people involved hanging up for years afterwards and they were persona non grata in any of the establishments in State College. That was before the advent of the cell phone camera. These rioters are in for a rude awakening. Many of them will be expelled, if not arrested.

Not very intelligent to be out there rioting, no matter how you feel about the events that sparked it.

Nothing happens in a vacuum and only a fool expects any human to hang up his beliefs entirely when doing a job, but the left is so used to the Kenyawaiian's everyday overstepping his authority, they worry others in the Oval Office may do so. 'President Cain' cannot by himself repeal anything.

And DOMA is not unconstitutional.

>> ^bareboards2:

Oh, I heard it. And I snorted in disbelief and derision.
Didn't you just hear him say that he would reinstate DADT? So his religious viewpoint is not divorced from his potential actions as a president. DOMA would not be repealed under his watch, and that is failing on constitutional grounds already.
So yeah. We heard it. We laughed.
>> ^quantumushroom:
BTW did anyone but me listen to the end of the vid when Cain stated his personal beliefs are overridden by the limiting powers of the Constitution?