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The Problem with Civil Obedience

Trancecoach says...

You're way off, and you clearly haven't read or understood any of the authors named in my comment. Had you developed an informed opinion before spouting off on the basis of the Kool-Aid you've drank, you'd understand that, without government, there'd be no "big guys" to exploit the subsidies and cronyism that are implicit in the original monopoly that is "government."
If you think that some how government (i.e., kleptocrats) are "overseeing things," then you've got some learning to do. The corruption and co-optation of the market is not a "problem" to be "fixed" by the government. It is a direct effect of government. To think otherwise is a fatal conceit, one whose costs get higher by the day.

But, you can believe whatever you want to believe.


"The politicians are real, the soldiers and police who enforce the politicians’ will are real, the buildings they inhabit are real, the weapons they wield are very real, but their supposed “authority” is not. And without that “authority,” without the right to do what they do, they are nothing but a gang of thugs. The term “government” implies legitimacy– it means the exercise of “authority” over a certain people or place. The way people speak of those in power, calling their commands “laws,” referring to disobedience to them as a “crime,” and so on, implies the right of” government” to rule, and a corresponding obligation on the part of its subjects to obey. Without the right to rule (”authority”), there is no reason to call the entity “government,” and all of the politicians and their mercenaries become utterly indistinguishable from a giant organized crime syndicate, their “laws” no more valid than the threats of muggers and carjackers. And that, in reality, is what every “government” is: an illegitimate gang of thugs, thieves and murderers, masquerading as a rightful ruling body." -Larken Rose

Stormsinger said:

Free Market Anarchism...what an oxymoron. You cannot have a free market, without laws to prevent (or authorize) the use of force. Without laws, too many of the big guys would just take what they want, and screw everyone else. At least with a government overseeing things, they have to take the extra step and effort of corrupting/co-opting the mechanisms of government.

Then we can have a bloody revolution, execute the perps, and start a new organization, that can, if we're lucky, last a few decades before the next crop takes over. It's beginning to look like that cycle is about the best we can hope for.

truth-is-the-nemesis (Member Profile)

Michael Hastings Investigation Update as of July 2013

Police perform illegal house-to-house raids in Boston

newtboy says...

This one suspect was not a threat to the entire Boston area, and did not make what amounts to Martial law without the declaration right. If you think being scared is the best reason to give up your rights to privacy and freedom from search and seizure, you don't understand the USA and perhaps should move to one of those other countries that agree with you, there are many.
Now, we appear to have a comprehension problem...I said I disagree with those claiming this was some conspiracy or even a compliance test. I did not say, and have not heard anyone else say (besides the suspects father) that this was perpetrated by the government, that's a pretty big jump there. The implication is that the police are using the fear violate people's rights thinking they'll be either be justified in their actions or at least get away with them. Sadly they would likely be right, thanks in large part to people like Fletch that don't understand or agree with the freedom from 'search and seizure'.
As to what they might find that would make it 'justified', nothing in my mind, but in theirs could be a different story. They leave it open for the GBs out there to call this a 'deadly ruse' amongst other things, and to claim it was simply a way to enter and search peoples homes for whatever they might find (remember, that's how many departments fund themselves, with seizures, so there's a great reason for them to want to know if there's something to seize).
I'm of the opinion that the Boston police saw an opportunity to enter at least some homes they knew full well were not in danger but that they were 'suspicious' of under the 'public safety' umbrella, and likely brought charges against some for what they found, but that's just a guess based on past behavior, I have no evidence that this happened.
I believe the police should have narrowed the search area to less than one square block once they knew where he was, not randomly search homes for him when they have no idea whatsoever where he is. There's no danger if he's not there, so no excuse to enter. If they don't know, but search anyway, that's an illegal warrantless search. If they pull their guns on you and train them at you (which they seemed to do in the video) they put your life in danger for no reason and should be prosecuted for brandishing.
No one (after the carjack victim not in a home) was held against their will, no one needed saving. When they don't know where the suspect is, they don't know where to search for him, so should not enter any home uninvited. How do you not get that? If they don't know where he is or what he's doing or even if he's armed (which it turns out he was not) then there's no exigent circumstance. Period. They only exist when there is knowledge of the suspects actual presence and evidence the he's either threatening others or evidence, not the worry that he might be.
Again, you appear to suggest that the police may enter your home to search for dangerous criminals at any time they choose in the name of safety because they are dangerous criminals and MAY be in your home, they are certainly in the area. That's just plain dumb and shows lack of forethought and lack of understanding of the right to be free from search and seizure, especially in your own home.
If you want to give up your rights because your a coward, move. I hear Australia is nice.
Apologies for the long post.

Fletch said:

Bombing suspects weren't enough of a threat?!?! You mean the bombing suspects who detonated two bombs during the marathon, executed an MIT policeman while he sat in his car, committed a carjacking and didn't kill the driver only because he wasn't an American, then engaged Boston police in a car chase and gun battle during which they threw several explosives, and one of the "suspects" ran over his own fucking brother so he could get away? Those bombing suspects? "Just isn't any way" they were enough of a threat?

Look, I've been very vocal about my hatred of police, and it pisses me off to see the citizens of Boston engage in the pathetically effusive hero-worship of police who were just doing what taxpayers pay them to do, but this whole argument that the warrantless searching of homes in an area police believed the remaining suspect to be hiding is just daft and has NO MERIT, not unlike the suspicion that this was some sort of compliance test on the populace that @newtboy "heard some say", which is firmly in Alex Jones/Glen Beck thousand-yarder territory. Maybe the government just really wanted to get into a few homes and look around without warrants, and the best idea they could come up with was to blow some people up, eh? What sorts of secrets do you think were surreptitiously gleaned from those searched homes that would justify such a huge and deadly ruse? Maybe they just wanted to find out if residents in a search area for an extremely and demonstrably violent suspect would resist efforts to actually locate and apprehend him. Compliance test... give me a fucking break.

You believe the police should have whittled the the search area down to a single home, got a warrant, and then knocked on the door with their guns holstered? Do you also believe that the police can read minds, or have powers of perception that the rest of us don't? Maybe you think the movies are accurate, and anything that happens anywhere can be played back in HD by the police because some super-secret satellite gets it on video. They're dicks, but they don't have superpowers and can't know everything with certainty, and I think they did a good job in a relatively short period of time of homing in and getting those assholes. What I find amazing is the criticism being leveled at them for doing exactly what they were supposed to do. If I'm being held against my will by someone who just blew up a marathon, killed a cop, and ran over his own brother to get away, the cops sure as shit better be actively searching my neighborhood, and not holding back for lack of warrants or knowledge of exactly which house he's in.

Other people here have tried to explain what exigant circumstances are, and why they most definitely applied in this case, but some of you just prefer to see bogeymen everywhere. Maybe you need to, for some reason.

Police perform illegal house-to-house raids in Boston

Fletch says...

Are you fucking high? I can't believe some of the stupidity coming from some of you people. This is even dumber than the ridiculous tack of @eric3579's comments (although I haven't read further than this comment yet, so maybe he pulled his head out later. EDIT: Nope!).

Bombing suspects weren't enough of a threat?!?! You mean the bombing suspects who detonated two bombs during the marathon, executed an MIT policeman while he sat in his car, committed a carjacking and didn't kill the driver only because he wasn't an American, then engaged Boston police in a car chase and gun battle during which they threw several explosives, and one of the "suspects" ran over his own fucking brother so he could get away? Those bombing suspects? "Just isn't any way" they were enough of a threat?

Look, I've been very vocal about my hatred of police, and it pisses me off to see the citizens of Boston engage in the pathetically effusive hero-worship of police who were just doing what taxpayers pay them to do, but this whole argument that the warrantless searching of homes in an area police believed the remaining suspect to be hiding is just daft and has NO MERIT, not unlike the suspicion that this was some sort of compliance test on the populace that @newtboy "heard some say", which is firmly in Alex Jones/Glenn Beck thousand-yarder territory. Maybe the government just really wanted to get into a few homes and look around without warrants, and the best idea they could come up with was to blow some people up, eh? What sorts of secrets do you think were surreptitiously gleaned from those searched homes that would justify such a huge and deadly ruse? Maybe they just wanted to find out if residents in a search area for an extremely and demonstrably violent suspect would be stupid enough to resist efforts to actually locate and apprehend him. Compliance test... give me a fucking break.

You believe the police should have whittled the the search area down to a single home, got a warrant, and then knocked on the door with their guns holstered? Do you also believe that the police can read minds, or have powers of perception that the rest of us don't? Maybe you think the movies are accurate, and anything that happens anywhere can be played back in HD by the police because some super-secret satellite gets it on video. They're dicks, but they don't have superpowers and can't know everything with certainty, and I think they did a good job in a relatively short period of time of homing in and getting those assholes. What I find amazing is the criticism being leveled at them for doing exactly what they were supposed to do. If I'm being held against my will by someone who just blew up a marathon, killed a cop, and ran over his own brother to get away, the cops sure as shit better be actively searching my neighborhood, and not holding back for lack of warrants or knowledge of exactly which house he's in.

Other people here have tried to explain what exigant circumstances are, and why they most definitely applied in this case, but some of you just prefer to see bogeymen everywhere. Maybe you need to, for some reason.

grinter said:

There just isn't any way that the bombing suspects represented enough of a threat to warrant door to door searches at gunpoint. This is even clearer than the post 9/11 'torture' debate... and that was pretty clear.
If the police really had probable cause to enter those homes, then they would have walked out of each of them with a man in handcuffs.

Police perform illegal house-to-house raids in Boston

Jaer says...

I think the circumstances are a bit different, remember, this isn't just some carjacker or thief. This individual proved how unpredictable he can be (carjack/robbery/bombs being thrown at pursuing police, fire fights, etc..) He's was a danger to all in the area. Look at the firefight that happened when they did find him. It sounded like a warzone, he just didn't raise his hands and say "oh.. guys.. you got me".

Again, I'm not saying that in any other "normal" situation this would be acceptable, but given the circumstances, the amount of danger the area was in, it was necessary to do a full sweep of every house, yard and street in the area.

eric3579 said:

I dont think you can say people were in imminent danger in any one house of the many they searched as they had no idea where he was. You cant say someones in immediate danger when you have no idea if they actually are. If they had him pegged to a few houses due to some type of evidence then maybe those people might be considered in imminent danger, maybe. Also the suspect cant escape if you have the house or houses surrounded that you "think" (basically taking a stab in the dark guess) he could possibly be occupying. I would think it would then be easy to obtain a warrant.

If this was normal ok procedure then every day blocks would be sealed off and houses searched warantlessly without consent due to violent or dangerous criminals(and what criminals aren't ) having disappeared into a residential areas where they can be considered an immediate danger to the residents of that community. Of course that doesn't happen.

Jim Carrey's 'Cold Dead Hand' Pisses Off Fox News Gun Nuts

lantern53 says...

Only law-abiding citizens obey the law. The criminals don't bother with the law. Which is why I'm keeping my gun. I want anyone thinking of breaking into my house to know I have a gun and know how to use it. Because when this whole progressive utopia fails because they ran out of our money, there will be a lot of home invasions, carjackings, etc.

Actual Gun/Violent Crime Statistics - (U.S.A. vs U.K.)

JamesMahogany says...

While I'll concede he gives a generally more accurate view of stats than most, he still commits the same basic fallacy of failing to distinguish how each country defines violent crime. You do realise "violent crime" is a blanket term, right?

Take a look at this:

http://dispellingthemythukvsusguns.wordpress.com/

In sum, if we concentrate on individual crimes. You're more likely to be carjacked, burgled, raped, suffer aggravated assault, murdered and shot in the US than in the UK.

A Good Day To Die Hard - First trailer

Retro Commercial - 1970 Dodge Charger

How to Help a Drunk Person Open Their Car

There are lots of a$$holes out there

alien_concept says...

Jesus, I wouldn't even consider carjacking. We've only just started to get those warning emails talking about it, it's so new/rare here. I really do need to become less trusting and that is bloody depressing

There are lots of a$$holes out there

Ron Paul: How to kill a black person and get away with it (Politics Talk Post)

marinara says...

OK, I'm tempted to ask how many suburban kids get caught carjacking, but I would appear to condone the hateful implication. (that whites get carjacked in black neighborhoods)

Checkmate, I concede.

Ron Paul Walks Out of CNN Interview

dystopianfuturetoday says...

Here is an excerpt from a Ron Paul newsletter that instructs you how to cover up the evidence after you murder a black person. This is despicable.

Blast ‘Em?
(From the Ron Paul Political Report October 1992 newsletter. [source])

If you live in a major city, you’ve probably already heard about the newest threat to your life and limb, and your family: carjacking.

It is the hip-hop thing to do among the urban youth who play unsuspecting whites like pianos. The youth simply walk up to a car they like, pull a gun, tell their family to get out, steal their jewelry and wallets, and take the car to wreck. Such actions have ballooned in the recent months.

In the old days, average people could avoid such youth by staying out of bad neighborhoods. Empowered by the media, police, and political complicity, however, the youth now roam everywhere looking for cars to steal and people to rob.

What can you do? More and more Americans are carrying a gun in the car. An ex-cop I know advises that if you have to use a gun on a youth, you should leave the scene immediately, disposing of the wiped off gun as soon as possible. Such a gun cannot, of course, be registered to you, but one bought privately (through the classifieds, for example).

I frankly don’t know what to make of such advice, but even in my little town of Lake Jackson, Texas, I’ve urged everyone in my family to know how to use a gun in self defense. For the animals are coming.

http://conspiratard.net/2011/12/17/ron-paul-newsletter-excerpt-of-the-day-121711-ron-pauls-newsletter-tells-readers-how-to-cover-up-a-murder/



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