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More CSI bullshit: Digital Zoom

vaire2ube says...

1.8 gigapixel ARGUS-IS. World's highest resolution video surviellience platform by DARPA.
1 million terabytes a day saved forever.

The ARGUS array is made up of several cameras and other types of imaging systems. The output of the imaging system is used to create extremely large, 1.8GP high-resolution mosaic images and video.

The U.S. Army, along with
Boeing, has developed and is preparing to deploy a new unmanned aircraft
called the “Hummingbird.” It’s is a VTOL-UAS (vertical take-off and
landing unmanned aerial system). Three of them are being deployed to
Afghanistan for a full year to survey and spy on Afghanistan from an
altitude of 20,000 feet with the ability to scan 25 square miles of
ground surface.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e95_1359267780

the equivalent of 100 predator drones looking at one place AT ONCE ... hahah they stole my idea

Helicotaxifelidermpter

Man Shoots Unmanned Police 'Speed Enforcement' Vehicle

enoch says...

>> ^raverman:

Is fining revenue gathering? Of course it is.
Is speeding endangering the lives of your fellow citizens? Of course it is.
(It's not a matter of opinion. It's proven and documented statistical probability.)
So the secret to beating the system? Just don't speed.
With any luck you'll hit a tree and remove your idiocy from the gene pool - but sometimes you'll hit one of us and hurt our loved ones. So we asked our government to do something to keep us safe from you. That's why there are laws and enforcement.


you talking to me?
because i speed all the time and i mean SPEED..none of that mamby pamby pussy speeding,im talking red-lining as fast as my car can go baby!(ok..that may have been a tad hyperbolic,but you get my point).

do i do this in a 25mph zone? no.
where residential homes are and possibly children? of course not,dont be absurd.
busy highway? with cluttered traffic? again that would be pretty dumb.traffic by its nature has a flow to it and 5 miles more per hour wont make much of a difference.

i am an adult who can make rational and reasonable choices concerning my safety and those around me and i CHOOSE to let my car rip with the windows down and the music cranking usually late at night when few cars are on the road and always a well lit road and/or highway.
i am not risking anybodies safety but my own.the only thing i am truly risking is getting popped by a cop and that is also a risk i chose.
i am ok with that and i have been pulled over a few times with not ONE citation for speeding (though i obviously was).

because that IS the point of this video yes?
a cop pulls me over on a lone highway doing 110mph and all i get is a warning but an automated surveillance camera does not make those distinctions.nor does it differentiate between 1 mile over the speed limit or 30 mph over.it does not discriminate because safety has nothing to do with its function.it serves entirely as a revenue gatherer...period.

now maybe you are speaking of those drivers who zip in and out of lanes,always having to gain that 5-10 of pavement,cutting in and out and driving aggressively.
or the drivers who scream down a residential road doing 50mph where kids play and people walk their dog.
well i can agree with you whole-heartedly on those points.those drivers are disregarding the safety of other people and should be fined etc etc but (and this is the main point) you will NEVER find one of those surveillance cameras in those areas.
why?
because most people dont drive like that and usually only speed on open highways.
(this is not opinion but statistically documented)
there is more revenue to be had on the open highway than there ever could be on your side street.hence surveillance is (usually) on open highways and freeways.
this is about money,moola,scratch and little to do with safety...or the law.

i am sure you did not direct your post at me @raverman nor people who may speed on occasion like i do.i am just using your comment to make a point and to express something that i am seeing more and more and i have to admit that it is a bit troubling to me.
how many of the people i encounter are becoming more and more comfortable with tactics such as this and then rationalize it in a way that,on the surface,does seem reasonable but i ask you...
i ask all of you..
to think a bit further when a government implements such tactics as automatic surveillance under the guise of safety because when we look at it honestly it is anything BUT about concerns for safety.

i do not obey blindly and i aim to misbehave.
i might just start doing that wearing a nightgown.
lets be honest..that was epic.

Man Shoots Unmanned Police 'Speed Enforcement' Vehicle

Fletch says...

>> ^ulysses1904:

Gosh, you're so right. I really didn't get it until just now. I was one of the "sheeple" for so long and I didn't realize it. Now I'll start speaking in nothing but cliches like these TYT hosts and other college kids.
"Down with the jack-booted fascists!" >> ^Fletch:
>> ^ulysses1904:
"We're all so tired of Big Brother looking over us at all times". It's a speed trap, not a toilet cam ya drama queen.

You really don't get it.
Go back to sleep. The government will keep you safe.


Huh? I bet that sounded much more clever in your head. But hey, whatever gets you through your miserable day...

smiley (Member Profile)

Man Shoots Unmanned Police 'Speed Enforcement' Vehicle

Sepacore says...

>> ^Yogi:

I'd like to see people fight speed traps and such things electronically. Like having an App that says where on a major freeway cops like to hang out. If you see one you can quickly report where it is and the phones of other's behind you will warn them to let them know they need to slow down.
I've always wanted to do this with signs and such...with a phone I think it would be even better...and it would be hard for them to police that.


Not sure about other countries, but in Australia the standard notification is: after driving past a speed trap, you flash/flick your lights at the on coming cars a couple times (daylight = lights on, off, on, off. Night = dim, normal, dim, normal.. no blinding takes place) for each few cars depending on how far apart they are.

The drivers that know what it means, likely because they learned it when they were kids from their parents doing it, slow down for the trap if they are going a bit fast, everyone checks the speed limit, then they flash the drivers coming their other direction (the ones behind you).. and if enough things like timing, traffic level's, distance from trap etc are right, then you (and most others) would be flashed before you got to the speed trap too. Aim to only do it within a couple of kilometers of the trap, else people get impatient waiting for it and speed up and get caught.

This tactic is used for pretty much any situation where the police have a presence in some respect. Also, if you see someone doing 150km/h+ in a 110 (max speed) zone, flash em, they WILL slow down, because it's better to slow down for a fake flash then risk the chance of the cops grabbing you and taking your dollars and driving points.

Pretty sure you can actually be fined for doing it, but it doesn't stop people from doing it once they pass the cops (if any are present).

In saying all of this, i only condone a 15% increase of the speed limit.. the cops used to allow for a 10% increase/fluctuation which was safer then not allowing any fluctuation.. safer to watch the road more than watching the speedometer .

Man Shoots Unmanned Police 'Speed Enforcement' Vehicle

ulysses1904 says...

Gosh, you're so right. I really didn't get it until just now. I was one of the "sheeple" for so long and I didn't realize it. Now I'll start speaking in nothing but cliches like these TYT hosts and other college kids.

"Down with the jack-booted fascists!" >> ^Fletch:

>> ^ulysses1904:
"We're all so tired of Big Brother looking over us at all times". It's a speed trap, not a toilet cam ya drama queen.

You really don't get it.
Go back to sleep. The government will keep you safe.

Man Shoots Unmanned Police 'Speed Enforcement' Vehicle

mxxcon says...

>> ^Yogi:

I'd like to see people fight speed traps and such things electronically. Like having an App that says where on a major freeway cops like to hang out. If you see one you can quickly report where it is and the phones of other's behind you will warn them to let them know they need to slow down.
I've always wanted to do this with signs and such...with a phone I think it would be even better...and it would be hard for them to police that.
http://www.waze.com allows you to do that.

Man Shoots Unmanned Police 'Speed Enforcement' Vehicle

ForgedReality says...

>> ^shagen454:

The guy has to be a little crazy to do that. Not that I find anything really wrong with it and I love that he did it; but the guy is obviously a little nutty.


You'd have to be crazy to go to all that effort and then not even break in and steal the thousands of dollars of camera equipment inside... Shit, that one still camera looked REALLY nice. There was other equipment in there too.

If they can afford that kind of hardware and just leave it out on the side of the road and drain the battery, why can't they pay some rent-a-cop to do the same thing?

Man Shoots Unmanned Police 'Speed Enforcement' Vehicle

Darkhand says...

>> ^raverman:

Is fining revenue gathering? Of course it is.
Is speeding endangering the lives of your fellow citizens? Of course it is.
(It's not a matter of opinion. It's proven and documented statistical probability.)
So the secret to beating the system? Just don't speed.
With any luck you'll hit a tree and remove your idiocy from the gene pool - but sometimes you'll hit one of us and hurt our loved ones. So we asked our government to do something to keep us safe from you. That's why there are laws and enforcement.


The problem is though there is no buffer. If the speed limit is 25 and I do 26 I'll get a ticket? That's really harsh.

I have people that do 40Mph down my 25Mph street and I can't stand that so I'd agree with some sort of speed enforcement. But It needs to be within reason. People need to actually be endangering lives. Not just some guy doing 5 over.

Man Shoots Unmanned Police 'Speed Enforcement' Vehicle

Darkhand says...

>> ^Yogi:

I'd like to see people fight speed traps and such things electronically. Like having an App that says where on a major freeway cops like to hang out. If you see one you can quickly report where it is and the phones of other's behind you will warn them to let them know they need to slow down.
I've always wanted to do this with signs and such...with a phone I think it would be even better...and it would be hard for them to police that.


That exists already:

http://trapster.com/

The only problem is everyone needs to have it obviously.

When I was growing up people would flash their high beams at you to warn you. Nobody does that anymore.

Man Shoots Unmanned Police 'Speed Enforcement' Vehicle

Fletch says...

>> ^ulysses1904:

"We're all so tired of Big Brother looking over us at all times". It's a speed trap, not a toilet cam ya drama queen.


You really don't get it.
Go back to sleep. The government will keep you safe.

Could Use Of Flying Death Robots Be Hurting US Reputation?

FermitTheKrog says...

The regions of which you speak belong to another era. Villages out there take days to walk to along mountain trails in some of the highest mountain ranges in the world. Is similiar to a lot of terrain in Afghanistan. Natural forts.

They've never really been conquered or been part of established empire. People are still organized along tribal lines, with the tribes engaged in continuous inter-tribe warfare. Every kid is handed a gun as soon as he's old enough to shoot and raised to abide by the honour code (pashtunwali, yes they even have a name for it). When the tribe is under attack, you don't question right or wrong, you defend the tribe. They're no electricity, television, newspapers, literacy, or any other medium that counters this message. I know it sounds racist but those boys are like klingons, the Pakistani government has never really dared to take them on.

Couple that with the decades of training provided in the arts of guerilla warfare; including drug running, weapons manufacture, crude bomb manufacture, etc. by the CIA and ISI during the cold war and the Soviet invasion, means they are a force to be reckoned with as the US is finding out in Afghanistan.

Despite all of that they've never really bothered us until the "war on terror". They've always bbeen kind of our crazy cousins. We don't wanna be around them but they're family. Most of the country is similarly undeveloped (as in people still live like 3000 years ago undeveloped) and backwards. Bringing them into the modern era is a long term project but there's a 150 million more people on that waiting list.

Since the war on terror Pakistan has taken a serious beating. This was supposed to be our decade of growth instead the economy is in shambles. We've been through yet another round of Western supported, foreign policy obsessed, military dictator leaving our civil institutions in shambles. We've lost around 4 thousand soldiers another 8.5 wounded. 40 thousand civilians killed and 3.5 million internal refugees (dirt poor and starving variety).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_North-West_Pakistan

Those are big numbers, people are angry. The Americans are unlikely to win in Afghanistan. They're putting tribe against tribe. All this talk of democracy vs. extremism/terrorism is not something the average Afghan understands. The average Afghan is illiterate and does not understand complex ideas. He understands this: foreigners, christian army, my tribe has chosen this side because we always hated those other fuckers anyways. Americans will leave, leaving Pakistan with a mess. They did it before and we've been screwed since. There's a huuuuge (as in a small city big) Afghan refugee camp near where I live that's some thirty years old, from the last time American boys were in the region playing their geopolitical monopoly game. It's horrible.

From the Pakistani perspective the War on Terror has been a disaster. It's solved nothing and created tenfold the problem it aimed to solve. The Afghans are a primitive bunch (made more so by warfare) and need to establish a government, after which they will slowly over time, maybe a century, join the civilized world. Pakistan wholeheartedly supported the Taliban (as did the US) when they took control of the country and brought peace to it. Warfare is the real bitch not how "extreme" they are. Saudi's are equally nuts and there's not a single American president who doesn't go pay a visit right away upon taking office. Best friends.

Now the government/military of Pakistan is in a tricky situation, we have to play both sides, thus the lack of trust. Either side has the ability to seriously take Pakistan on and bring it to it's knees. The government the American's have propped up in Kabul wouldn't last a month without them, is corrupt, and allied to the Indians, with whom we see ourselves as being in a state of justified war. What to do!? What to do!? (in a indian accent).

I guess my point being, we're actually not a bad bunch. Just in a shitty situation. Come sometime and I can show you around. Most of the country is safe. Safer than mexico anyways.

Sorry that was a long post





>> ^bcglorf:

>> ^FermitTheKrog:
Thanks for having a more nuanced understanding of the matter... thought I'd share a Pakistani perspective:
-Yes, no arabs here. Lots of Muslims though as in loads of other countries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Muslim_population
-Pakistani's despise the drone strikes for the same reason we despised the Bin Laden assasination. It is a terrible loss of sovereignity to have foreign soldiers killing with impunity, racking up civilian casualties, within your borders. It makes the matter worse, Pakistan is radicalizing tremendously fast and every time the US flattens another village in Afghanistan or our border regions, everytime American troops accidentally kill ours, that pace accelerates.
-An analogy: If Mexico had drones over the US taking out gang leaders in LA, the US would flatten Mexico in response. All we do is get angry.
-Things are not that bad: Liberals are not dying off. We are in government by popular vote. The Pakistani military is not some tinpot force, it is very much in control of itself and thus of it's nukes. We will deal with the militancy problem over time; education, economic opputurnity, writ of law; not bombs. We are a third world country, Afghanistan has been a war zone forever now, these things take time, most of us still shit in fields, out people are hungry, we have bigger problems to deal with than car bombs.
-In Pakistan, conservatives want the American's gone because they are an imperial force at our doorstep. All talk of human rights and democracy is hogwash. Palestine is the example. Amongst the ultra right (3-4% of the population, I'm sure you have them too, wherever you are) the "we" is Muslims and the "them" is a collaboration of Zionists and American bible thumpers.
Liberals want the American's gone because they are an imperial force at our doorstep. All talk of human rights and democracy is hogwash. Saudi Arab is the example. If they go away we can educate our people out of the mental cesspit they seem to be headed into. American bombs make us look like traitors to our people and weaken our stance.
Thanks for listening. Open to discussion


>> ^bcglorf:
>> ^vaire2ube:
well the trick is eventually we dont tell the kids running the drones that its actually REALITY! Ahh! Ender's Game!
But by then the arabs formics will be gone.

The populations in Afghanistan and Pakistan are primarily Muslim, not Arab. There are in fact more Arabs living in America than there are in Afghanistan and Pakistan combined.
I know, not your point at all, but if you try and hash out the real news by reading through middle eastern news outlets you won't be able to make head from tails wondering why a pro-Arab outlet like Al Jazeera would willingly say anything bad about Iran. It's not until realizing that Iran is largely Persian and not Arab that it makes any sense.
I rant about this because it's crazily important and the details matter. American drone attacks have killed hundreds within Pakistan, but even by Pakistan's most anti-American media those people were largely militants responsible for killing Pakistani civilians. The Pakistani Taliban have meanwhile killed thousands of civilians, including former PM Benazir Bhutto, and there is infinitely more outrage and hatred for America's drones than for the Pakistani Taliban. It's something important to think about. What's more, there is MORE hatred in Pakistan over America's raid that killed Bin Laden than there is for the unmanned drone attacks. That's even more important to think about.
The reality is that the moderates in Pakistan are fighting an uphill struggle in Pakistan. We need them to win but they are being killed off faster than we can defend them, and even attempting to defend them is hurting their cause to boot. It's easy to declare that a strategy is bad and has horrible consequences, it's a lot more important though to propose a better alternative. Stop the attacks and do nothing means a Pakistan where the Taliban where still best friends with the military and intelligence agencies. It means a nuclear armed state that was best friends with terrorist organizations eager to use those nuclear weapons in their jihad while we lacked any way of assessing just how close and willing their partnership was. Don't dismiss this assessment as doomsday fear mongering. One of the debates in Pakistan's national assemblies after Osama's death included elected representatives bemoaning Pakistan's failure to protect a great Muslim hero like Bin Laden. Pakistan is a battle ground between extremist and moderate populations and we have a very vested interest in who wins that struggle.


Thank you for adding so much to the discussion, very much appreciated.
Yes, I do understand the sovereignty issue looms huge in the opinion of American actions within Pakistan's borders. I can really understand how that would enrage anyone with any manner of national pride. America is in a tough spot though too. The mountainous tribal regions along the Pak-Afghan border are not under the control of the Pakistani central government. On paper the border may run there, but in practice militants can relatively safely travel back and forth between the two. What's more, there still remain places within Pakistan's proper borders that are controlled by the local tribal leaders, and NOT the central Pakistani government. Those local tribal leaders are allying themselves to the Pakistani Taliban and providing them safe haven within Pakistan to launch attacks in both Pakistan and Afghanistan. The Afghan part does make it America's business. The Pakistani part in my humble opinion, should be a source of greater public outrage than it is.
I guess I find it worrying that extremists can be in de-facto control of large swathes of land within Pakistan's proper borders. So much so that it is still unsafe for the Pakistani police and even military to patrol there. To me, that seems like it is already an enormous sovereignty issue. America's attacks against militants in that region I can understand being a source of outrage. I don't understand why there isn't equal or greater outrage that those regions on the ground are no longer under the control of the Pakistani government at all and being used as a base of operations for launching attacks on the rest of Pakistan.
I think America's problem is knowing whom they can trust within Pakistan's power structure to work against rather than with extremists like the Taliban. Hamid Gul, former leader of Pakistan's ISI, scares the crap out of me. How many of his friends are still in the ISI that think like him? The JUI-F party declared Osama a muslim hero in Pakistan's National Assemblies. How much support has that party been able to hold onto within Pakistan still after taking that stance? Political parties like the PPP seem to share alot of moderate values, but have historically been ridden out of office by the military every few years.
Do you have good reasons that those fears are unfounded? From what I see and read(largely from "The News International") the moderates like yourself have always been in an uphill struggle against extremists and the opportunists willing to work with them.

Could Use Of Flying Death Robots Be Hurting US Reputation?

bcglorf says...

>> ^FermitTheKrog:

Thanks for having a more nuanced understanding of the matter... thought I'd share a Pakistani perspective:
-Yes, no arabs here. Lots of Muslims though as in loads of other countries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Muslim_population
-Pakistani's despise the drone strikes for the same reason we despised the Bin Laden assasination. It is a terrible loss of sovereignity to have foreign soldiers killing with impunity, racking up civilian casualties, within your borders. It makes the matter worse, Pakistan is radicalizing tremendously fast and every time the US flattens another village in Afghanistan or our border regions, everytime American troops accidentally kill ours, that pace accelerates.
-An analogy: If Mexico had drones over the US taking out gang leaders in LA, the US would flatten Mexico in response. All we do is get angry.
-Things are not that bad: Liberals are not dying off. We are in government by popular vote. The Pakistani military is not some tinpot force, it is very much in control of itself and thus of it's nukes. We will deal with the militancy problem over time; education, economic opputurnity, writ of law; not bombs. We are a third world country, Afghanistan has been a war zone forever now, these things take time, most of us still shit in fields, out people are hungry, we have bigger problems to deal with than car bombs.
-In Pakistan, conservatives want the American's gone because they are an imperial force at our doorstep. All talk of human rights and democracy is hogwash. Palestine is the example. Amongst the ultra right (3-4% of the population, I'm sure you have them too, wherever you are) the "we" is Muslims and the "them" is a collaboration of Zionists and American bible thumpers.
Liberals want the American's gone because they are an imperial force at our doorstep. All talk of human rights and democracy is hogwash. Saudi Arab is the example. If they go away we can educate our people out of the mental cesspit they seem to be headed into. American bombs make us look like traitors to our people and weaken our stance.
Thanks for listening. Open to discussion


>> ^bcglorf:
>> ^vaire2ube:
well the trick is eventually we dont tell the kids running the drones that its actually REALITY! Ahh! Ender's Game!
But by then the arabs formics will be gone.

The populations in Afghanistan and Pakistan are primarily Muslim, not Arab. There are in fact more Arabs living in America than there are in Afghanistan and Pakistan combined.
I know, not your point at all, but if you try and hash out the real news by reading through middle eastern news outlets you won't be able to make head from tails wondering why a pro-Arab outlet like Al Jazeera would willingly say anything bad about Iran. It's not until realizing that Iran is largely Persian and not Arab that it makes any sense.
I rant about this because it's crazily important and the details matter. American drone attacks have killed hundreds within Pakistan, but even by Pakistan's most anti-American media those people were largely militants responsible for killing Pakistani civilians. The Pakistani Taliban have meanwhile killed thousands of civilians, including former PM Benazir Bhutto, and there is infinitely more outrage and hatred for America's drones than for the Pakistani Taliban. It's something important to think about. What's more, there is MORE hatred in Pakistan over America's raid that killed Bin Laden than there is for the unmanned drone attacks. That's even more important to think about.
The reality is that the moderates in Pakistan are fighting an uphill struggle in Pakistan. We need them to win but they are being killed off faster than we can defend them, and even attempting to defend them is hurting their cause to boot. It's easy to declare that a strategy is bad and has horrible consequences, it's a lot more important though to propose a better alternative. Stop the attacks and do nothing means a Pakistan where the Taliban where still best friends with the military and intelligence agencies. It means a nuclear armed state that was best friends with terrorist organizations eager to use those nuclear weapons in their jihad while we lacked any way of assessing just how close and willing their partnership was. Don't dismiss this assessment as doomsday fear mongering. One of the debates in Pakistan's national assemblies after Osama's death included elected representatives bemoaning Pakistan's failure to protect a great Muslim hero like Bin Laden. Pakistan is a battle ground between extremist and moderate populations and we have a very vested interest in who wins that struggle.



Thank you for adding so much to the discussion, very much appreciated.

Yes, I do understand the sovereignty issue looms huge in the opinion of American actions within Pakistan's borders. I can really understand how that would enrage anyone with any manner of national pride. America is in a tough spot though too. The mountainous tribal regions along the Pak-Afghan border are not under the control of the Pakistani central government. On paper the border may run there, but in practice militants can relatively safely travel back and forth between the two. What's more, there still remain places within Pakistan's proper borders that are controlled by the local tribal leaders, and NOT the central Pakistani government. Those local tribal leaders are allying themselves to the Pakistani Taliban and providing them safe haven within Pakistan to launch attacks in both Pakistan and Afghanistan. The Afghan part does make it America's business. The Pakistani part in my humble opinion, should be a source of greater public outrage than it is.

I guess I find it worrying that extremists can be in de-facto control of large swathes of land within Pakistan's proper borders. So much so that it is still unsafe for the Pakistani police and even military to patrol there. To me, that seems like it is already an enormous sovereignty issue. America's attacks against militants in that region I can understand being a source of outrage. I don't understand why there isn't equal or greater outrage that those regions on the ground are no longer under the control of the Pakistani government at all and being used as a base of operations for launching attacks on the rest of Pakistan.

I think America's problem is knowing whom they can trust within Pakistan's power structure to work against rather than with extremists like the Taliban. Hamid Gul, former leader of Pakistan's ISI, scares the crap out of me. How many of his friends are still in the ISI that think like him? The JUI-F party declared Osama a muslim hero in Pakistan's National Assemblies. How much support has that party been able to hold onto within Pakistan still after taking that stance? Political parties like the PPP seem to share alot of moderate values, but have historically been ridden out of office by the military every few years.

Do you have good reasons that those fears are unfounded? From what I see and read(largely from "The News International") the moderates like yourself have always been in an uphill struggle against extremists and the opportunists willing to work with them.

Could Use Of Flying Death Robots Be Hurting US Reputation?

FermitTheKrog says...

Thanks for having a more nuanced understanding of the matter... thought I'd share a Pakistani perspective:

-Yes, no arabs here. Lots of Muslims though as in loads of other countries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Muslim_population

-Pakistani's despise the drone strikes for the same reason we despised the Bin Laden assasination. It is a terrible loss of sovereignity to have foreign soldiers killing with impunity, racking up civilian casualties, within your borders. It makes the matter worse, Pakistan is radicalizing tremendously fast and every time the US flattens another village in Afghanistan or our border regions, everytime American troops accidentally kill ours, that pace accelerates.

-An analogy: If Mexico had drones over the US taking out gang leaders in LA, the US would flatten Mexico in response. All we do is get angry.

-Things are not that bad: Liberals are not dying off. We are in government by popular vote. The Pakistani military is not some tinpot force, it is very much in control of itself and thus of it's nukes. We will deal with the militancy problem over time; education, economic opputurnity, writ of law; not bombs. We are a third world country, Afghanistan has been a war zone forever now, these things take time, most of us still shit in fields, out people are hungry, we have bigger problems to deal with than car bombs.

-In Pakistan, conservatives want the American's gone because they are an imperial force at our doorstep. All talk of human rights and democracy is hogwash. Palestine is the example. Amongst the ultra right (3-4% of the population, I'm sure you have them too, wherever you are) the "we" is Muslims and the "them" is a collaboration of Zionists and American bible thumpers.

Liberals want the American's gone because they are an imperial force at our doorstep. All talk of human rights and democracy is hogwash. Saudi Arab is the example. If they go away we can educate our people out of the mental cesspit they seem to be headed into. American bombs make us look like traitors to our people and weaken our stance.

Thanks for listening. Open to discussion




>> ^bcglorf:

>> ^vaire2ube:
well the trick is eventually we dont tell the kids running the drones that its actually REALITY! Ahh! Ender's Game!
But by then the arabs formics will be gone.

The populations in Afghanistan and Pakistan are primarily Muslim, not Arab. There are in fact more Arabs living in America than there are in Afghanistan and Pakistan combined.
I know, not your point at all, but if you try and hash out the real news by reading through middle eastern news outlets you won't be able to make head from tails wondering why a pro-Arab outlet like Al Jazeera would willingly say anything bad about Iran. It's not until realizing that Iran is largely Persian and not Arab that it makes any sense.
I rant about this because it's crazily important and the details matter. American drone attacks have killed hundreds within Pakistan, but even by Pakistan's most anti-American media those people were largely militants responsible for killing Pakistani civilians. The Pakistani Taliban have meanwhile killed thousands of civilians, including former PM Benazir Bhutto, and there is infinitely more outrage and hatred for America's drones than for the Pakistani Taliban. It's something important to think about. What's more, there is MORE hatred in Pakistan over America's raid that killed Bin Laden than there is for the unmanned drone attacks. That's even more important to think about.
The reality is that the moderates in Pakistan are fighting an uphill struggle in Pakistan. We need them to win but they are being killed off faster than we can defend them, and even attempting to defend them is hurting their cause to boot. It's easy to declare that a strategy is bad and has horrible consequences, it's a lot more important though to propose a better alternative. Stop the attacks and do nothing means a Pakistan where the Taliban where still best friends with the military and intelligence agencies. It means a nuclear armed state that was best friends with terrorist organizations eager to use those nuclear weapons in their jihad while we lacked any way of assessing just how close and willing their partnership was. Don't dismiss this assessment as doomsday fear mongering. One of the debates in Pakistan's national assemblies after Osama's death included elected representatives bemoaning Pakistan's failure to protect a great Muslim hero like Bin Laden. Pakistan is a battle ground between extremist and moderate populations and we have a very vested interest in who wins that struggle.



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