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Why Christians Can Not Honestly Believe in Evolution

shinyblurry says...

My characterization of the theories of abiogenesis and macro evolution as based on weak, circumsantial evidence, thus regulating them to the realm of metaphysics is entirely accurate and a proper usage of those terms. Posting a couple of videos which you feel substantiates both theories, even if they did substantiate them, does not prove I used the terms incorrectly. At best it would mean I was mistaken about the sufficiency of the evidence. In any case, clearly you feel I am mistaken, so rather than rebut other peoples videos, I am interested to hear what you personally feel substantiates those theories.


>> ^GenjiKilpatrick:
So.. these statements show you have no comprehension of the words you strung together.
"Investigating" articles published on "Christian Science" Monitor or reviewing Kurt Cameron's Banana Atheist Nightmare video does not count as research.
>> ^shinyblurry:
However, what spurred me to change my mind.. ..was simply investigating what the evidence for macro evolution actually was. I was profoundly shocked to find that it was based on nothing more than weak, circumstantial evidence,

A "weak" inductive argument is one which has little evidence to support its claim.
Hence, the more evidence.. the stronger the argument. I'll let AronRa take over from here
>> ^shinyblurry:
and like abiogenesis, it dwelled solely in the realm of metaphysics..

Again, your ignorance is showing man.
The term "Metaphysics" is the study of existence and relies on Ontology, the study of entities that exist or don't exist.
Not only is abiogenesis possible.. there's more evidence to prove the existence of abiogenesis than there is to prove Adam Eve or Yahweh exist(ed).
That is to say. Yahweh & Adam are purely metaphysical. Abiogenesis is not.

1 decade 2 years 3 weeks ago

up0down

Why Christians Can Not Honestly Believe in Evolution

GenjiKilpatrick says...

So.. these statements show you have no comprehension of the words you strung together.

"Investigating" articles published on "Christian Science" Monitor or reviewing Kurt Cameron's Banana Atheist Nightmare video does not count as research.
>> ^shinyblurry:

However, what spurred me to change my mind.. ..was simply investigating what the evidence for macro evolution actually was. I was profoundly shocked to find that it was based on nothing more than weak, circumstantial evidence,



A "weak" inductive argument is one which has little evidence to support its claim.

Hence, the more evidence.. the stronger the argument. I'll let AronRa take over from here:



>> ^shinyblurry:


and like abiogenesis, it dwelled solely in the realm of metaphysics..


Again, your ignorance is showing man.

The term "Metaphysics" is the study of existence and relies on Ontology, the study of entities that exist or don't exist.

Not only is abiogenesis possible.. there's more evidence to prove the existence of abiogenesis than there is to prove Adam Eve or Yahweh exist(ed).

That is to say. Yahweh & Adam are purely metaphysical. Abiogenesis is not.



Please don't used a vague knowledge of sciency terms to support your bullshit faith in an invisible skydaddy.

Thanks.

Why Christians Can Not Honestly Believe in Evolution

shinyblurry says...

I would have actually voted for this video if not for the atheist salespitch strewn throughout, or the sad debate with the catholic priest at the end. What he is saying is essentially correct, and in fact, he uses many of the same arguments that I use when talking to liberal Christians. This isn't the whole story, though.

First, a Christian shouldn't reject evolution. Micro-evolution, or changes below the species level, is not only a proven fact, but it also explains how the world was repopulated after the flood. There is no conflict in believing this occurs. The contentious issue is macro evolution, or the theory of common descent. If you believe all life has a common ancestor, then you cannot believe in a literal Adam and Eve. At least, you would think that, but I've heard some Christians say things like, God used evolution to bring about all of the animals, but humans He specially created in the garden. This is obviously a compromise but some people don't see that as being a big deal.

In any case, as for myself, I came into Christianity with a belief in macro evolution, and I saw no reason to doubt it was true. Like everyone here, I had been indoctrinated into that belief from a young age and I assumed it was true because it was taught as absolute fact. Because I was still young in the faith, I didn't see the logical inconsistancy in believing in macro evolution and Christianity. However, what spurred me to change my mind was not finding that there was an inconsistancy (i didnt become aware of that until later), it was simply investigating what the evidence for macro evolution actually was. I was profoundly shocked to find that it was based on nothing more than weak, circumstantial evidence, and like abiogenesis, it dwelled solely in the realm of metaphysics. It took me awhile to change my mind about it; my indoctrination was heavy, mostly because it is so ingrained in our culture. You see it in books, movies, tv shows, nature shows, newspapers, always talking about it as if it were absolutely 100 percent proven. The culture speaks with one voice about it, and that voice says it is historical fact. Yet what I found is that it is not proven, it is just assumed to be true, and then the evidence is interpreted through that lens to support the preconceived notions, which is the exact opposite of scientific reasoning.

I don't think Christians should reject macro evolution just because the bible speaks of a literal Adam and Eve. I think they should also reject it because it is not supported by the facts. I think they should understand what the data is for theory and how scientists arrived at their conclusions. I think they should be as well informed about it as possible. If the evidence were solid for macro evolution having occured, I would still believe it. This might change my ideas about what the bible says, but my faith isn't based exclusively on interpretation of the bible; ultimately, it is based on my personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

The main premise of this video is really to shake the faith of liberal Christians, and also to say that those who are logically consistant regarding the bible are rejecting macro evolution despite the evidence. I can honestly say I rejected it because of the evidence, not in spite of it.

Angry Birds in Real Life: Aggressive Goose Attacks Man

Porksandwich says...

>> ^MilkmanDan:

Farm story:
When I was growing up, we always kept 30-50 chickens for eggs. You can buy sets of chicks that are supposed to be all pullets/hens (females) but usually a few roosters (males) get mixed in by mistake. One time we bought a set of bantam chickens, which is a small/miniature variety, and happened to get 4-5 roosters mixed in with the hens.
Bantams "make up" for their small size in increased aggressiveness. I (about 6 years old or so at the time) was initially scared of them because they would act a lot like this goose -- charge, jump, and try to show you who's boss. They don't have any real means to actually hurt you; no spurs, beaks aren't sharp, etc. but their behavior can be scary for kids at first.
Then my dad taught me how to handle them: stand your ground, angle out a leg and foot so they charge down your foot/shin first, and let them start to ineffectually attack/spur your foot and leg. When they have a leg on either side of your foot, you just kick/launch them away, or even better aim them into the nearest solid object -- like the wall of the barn. I'd go in to collect eggs, let them attack, and boot the little bastards into the wall.
Chickens aren't exactly known for being very intelligent, but bantams seem to have miniature brains in their miniature bodies as well. Getting booted into a wall never really hurt them, but it would make them dizzy or dazed for a few minutes and give you time to collect the eggs. But the next day, or even just after a few minutes if you stuck around, they'd come back around for round two of chicken football.
One disclaimer: if you're a PETA type, consider that being repeatedly kicked into a wall (yet suffering no long-term ill effects) is perhaps better treatment than the likely alternative of being caged into a 2 foot square, force fed, and ending up on a plate at KFC. Maybe.


Chicken Kicker!

Angry Birds in Real Life: Aggressive Goose Attacks Man

MilkmanDan says...

Farm story:

When I was growing up, we always kept 30-50 chickens for eggs. You can buy sets of chicks that are supposed to be all pullets/hens (females) but usually a few roosters (males) get mixed in by mistake. One time we bought a set of bantam chickens, which is a small/miniature variety, and happened to get 4-5 roosters mixed in with the hens.

Bantams "make up" for their small size in increased aggressiveness. I (about 6 years old or so at the time) was initially scared of them because they would act a lot like this goose -- charge, jump, and try to show you who's boss. They don't have any real means to actually hurt you; no spurs, beaks aren't sharp, etc. but their behavior can be scary for kids at first.

Then my dad taught me how to handle them: stand your ground, angle out a leg and foot so they charge down your foot/shin first, and let them start to ineffectually attack/spur your foot and leg. When they have a leg on either side of your foot, you just kick/launch them away, or even better aim them into the nearest solid object -- like the wall of the barn. I'd go in to collect eggs, let them attack, and boot the little bastards into the wall.

Chickens aren't exactly known for being very intelligent, but bantams seem to have miniature brains in their miniature bodies as well. Getting booted into a wall never really hurt them, but it would make them dizzy or dazed for a few minutes and give you time to collect the eggs. But the next day, or even just after a few minutes if you stuck around, they'd come back around for round two of chicken football.

One disclaimer: if you're a PETA type, consider that being repeatedly kicked into a wall (yet suffering no long-term ill effects) is perhaps better treatment than the likely alternative of being caged into a 2 foot square, force fed, and ending up on a plate at KFC. Maybe.

Quboid (Member Profile)

Deano says...

I missed the Bolton match. Sad stuff, reminded me of Marc Vivien Foe. You're right that Spurs have overachieved, that's more accurate.

I have liked Carrol at times but I can only hope for his sake he's going to come good like Drogba who I knew could be awesome but just needed time to settle. Both are big, physical guys that should intimidate defenders. But only one has in his career. Guess Carroll is just too green.

In reply to this comment by Quboid:
In reply to this comment by Deano:
In reply to this comment by Quboid:
Are you a Liverpool fan? Charlie Adam has been awful lately, we miss Lucas so much. I thought I was the only knowledgeable football man here!


Nah, Spurs fan here. It's been rather frustrating to see how overrated we've been this season. This period of losses has been absolutely predictable. I think Redknapp played Modric on the left against Everton which is mind-blowingly stupid but beyond that we just don't have enough good players.

Charlie Adam is astonishing though. I wasn't sure about him either way when Liverpool bought him. I knew Downing would fail as he's always been mediocre. Looks like Adam should have stayed at the Blackpool level. And don't get me started on Carroll...


I have faith in Carroll and Henderson, I think they will come good. The money splunked on them was ridiculous and they'll never justify that but they can be good players. Downing is out of his depth and Adam, well, he's been awful and we play so much better without him. One season wonder.

Spurs are good, and they're well run. I wouldn't say they are overrated, but that they overachieved. You're not good enough for a title challenge, but you deserve top 4 a lot more than Liverpool :

I take it you saw the Spurs - Bolton match? I've never seen anything quite like that and I hope I never do again.

Deano (Member Profile)

Quboid says...

In reply to this comment by Deano:
In reply to this comment by Quboid:
Are you a Liverpool fan? Charlie Adam has been awful lately, we miss Lucas so much. I thought I was the only knowledgeable football man here!


Nah, Spurs fan here. It's been rather frustrating to see how overrated we've been this season. This period of losses has been absolutely predictable. I think Redknapp played Modric on the left against Everton which is mind-blowingly stupid but beyond that we just don't have enough good players.

Charlie Adam is astonishing though. I wasn't sure about him either way when Liverpool bought him. I knew Downing would fail as he's always been mediocre. Looks like Adam should have stayed at the Blackpool level. And don't get me started on Carroll...


I have faith in Carroll and Henderson, I think they will come good. The money splunked on them was ridiculous and they'll never justify that but they can be good players. Downing is out of his depth and Adam, well, he's been awful and we play so much better without him. One season wonder.

Spurs are good, and they're well run. I wouldn't say they are overrated, but that they overachieved. You're not good enough for a title challenge, but you deserve top 4 a lot more than Liverpool

I take it you saw the Spurs - Bolton match? I've never seen anything quite like that and I hope I never do again.

Quboid (Member Profile)

Deano says...

In reply to this comment by Quboid:
Are you a Liverpool fan? Charlie Adam has been awful lately, we miss Lucas so much. I thought I was the only knowledgeable football man here!


Nah, Spurs fan here. It's been rather frustrating to see how overrated we've been this season. This period of losses has been absolutely predictable. I think Redknapp played Modric on the left against Everton which is mind-blowingly stupid but beyond that we just don't have enough good players.

Charlie Adam is astonishing though. I wasn't sure about him either way when Liverpool bought him. I knew Downing would fail as he's always been mediocre. Looks like Adam should have stayed at the Blackpool level. And don't get me started on Carroll...

David Mitchell on The Wealth of Footballers

Quboid says...

>> ^Deano:


I think the smart answer from you would be to accept I'm not going to type hundreds of names out for you. That's not a real answer or proof. Your response is disingenuous.
We're going with our knowledge of what this demographic is. Note I've never said or claimed that footballers are universally "dumb". I said they aren't especially bright. I have said and will always maintain they certainly are not the smartest slice of the population. And by the way going back to the video, Mitchell is clearly taking the piss. It is a comedy program with exaggeration a key component.
"Thick people can't handle school"? I think there's a huge number of educationalists would argue that one. Provision levels and equality of opportunity along with socio-economic factors play a huge role. Footballers from poor working-class families more often find themselves excluded from progressing in the educational system and it's not always because they're "thick". In London I know the debate re the lack of educational achievement in boys linked to the decline in male teachers. You cross that with the race issue and it's even more complicated.
Ah now you're going with my definition of football intelligence? Well that's what I've been driving at. They're good at football. They know how hard to strike the ball, when to time a run, how to employ gamesmanship. They have good spatial awareness. You could now start to talk about different kinds of intelligence. But that's a bloody complicated area. I would however continue to separate football smarts from intellectual ones and general life skills.
You're right, having good advice on hand is advantageous. But some footballers are smarter than others. Tevez for example might be the dumbest, or unluckiest, guy in the game. Mostly the infrastructure is already in place for these guys. Word of mouth is important. I would love to know whether they would make more or less if they didn't employ representation. It would be interesting to know wouldn't it? I suspect it would take a huge amount of balls at a young age to do it yourself or entrust mum or dad.
I never intended to claim Klinnsman's diving was dumb, merely that I note it as a low light of his professional career. I saw him play once and he was excellent in what was really a workmanlike Spurs team.
I'll call it a draw with Barton. I don't know if you're calling me dumb but yes he is an unpleasant thug. He's a moron who's been unable to learn from his mistakes. Guess who's got the most yellow cards for QPR this season?


Of course you're not going to type out hundreds of names and that wouldn't be enough anyway - that's my point. I could name clever footballers - including ones who have a reputation for being dumb (Frank Lampard) - which would be pointless too. It's all anecdotal, it's basically meaningless.

I'm not sure what point you're making with regards to education, "it's not always because they're 'thick'" seems to be agreeing with me.

I didn't mean to say you're dumb, I was referring to Barton's thug past implying that he isn't a genius. Getting most yellow cards isn't necessarily bad, he's a tough tackling midfielder so it's his job to throw himself about (and getting a booking is clever if it stops a goal!). I took your comment about Klinsmann diving to mean he's stupid, sorry about that.

It's certainly complicated and the socio-economic and race issues you touched on only make it more so. In fairness, I don't know. You make good points and you aren't falling into the trap that bugs me, the idea that British footballers are barely capable of tying their shoe laces (or putting on their own bibs ... oh!). I expect they are above average, a bit, but you make good arguments for them being a bit below average.

This clip is from Mock the Week, there was a Franky Boyle bit about the England team writing their own song (this is the best I can find: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpbvF1dESFY&feature=related ). I know this is exaggerated for comic effect but for me, people saying that or laughing at that are the thick ones. Comic exaggeration of an already at-best exaggerated opinion is brainless.

David Mitchell on The Wealth of Footballers

Deano says...

>> ^Quboid:

>> ^Deano:

How many names am I supposed to give you? Is there a specific number that should convince you? Put it like this ff you were mining the wisdom of crowds they'd be the last crowd you'd go with.
A lack of education, also known as ignorance and poor critical thinking is linked to lack of comprehension and the wider phenomenon of stupidity.
You're incorrect about intelligence being a differentiator on the field. The number characteristic coaches look for is attitude. Players with an intense competitive desire and a controllable amount of aggression WITH talent are the ones who make it.
Off the pitch, being able to make smart decisions about contracts, sponsorship is where you'd be right. Actually maybe that means Beckham is a genius and I'm totally wrong! Or maybe he's well advised.
I always admired Klinnsman in that regard. If you forgot the diving you might recall he sorted out his own contract and only hired a lawyer and an accountant. The value of an education there is that you actually eke out a bit more money over the long term.
As for Barton his propensity for violence suggests he's not the poster boy for the football intelligentsia. I know he's been working via twitter to build a different kind of reputation but I'm yet to be convinced. It's amazing what you can cut and paste on the web.

I'd like over 50% of footballers, that would convince me. It's all anecdotal otherwise. The last crowd I'd go for would certainly not be footballers, it would be unemployed, ex-convicts who left school early because it was too hard for them.
Again, while a lack of education is linked with stupidity, this is because the reason is often that thick people can't handle school. Leaving school for a lucrative career is very different.
The characteristic that coaches look for is being a good player and more intelligent people will generally be slightly better. You mentioned this yourself - footballing intelligence. That's not a separate part of the brain, that's good old intelligence, along with experience on the pitch. If you have 2 players with equally intense competitive desire, controllable aggression and talent, the smarter one is the one who will pick better passes, position themselves better, concentrate better, be a better player.
Klinsmann is far from the only player who did his own contracts but then that's not really relevant - having good advisers might be the intelligent choice; if they get you 30% more and take 15% then they're worth hiring. Also, frankly, diving is intelligent given how pathetically advantageous it is.
You can add being a thug to Barton's rap sheet and that is pretty dumb. Whether he's just copy and pasting from www.NietzscheForDummies.com we don't know but even if he was, this would require a greater understanding of the world than British footballers are given credit for.


I think the smart answer from you would be to accept I'm not going to type hundreds of names out for you. That's not a real answer or proof. Your response is disingenuous.
We're going with our knowledge of what this demographic is. Note I've never said or claimed that footballers are universally "dumb". I said they aren't especially bright. I have said and will always maintain they certainly are not the smartest slice of the population. And by the way going back to the video, Mitchell is clearly taking the piss. It *is* a comedy program with exaggeration a key component.

"Thick people can't handle school"? I think there's a huge number of educationalists would argue that one. Provision levels and equality of opportunity along with socio-economic factors play a huge role. Footballers from poor working-class families more often find themselves excluded from progressing in the educational system and it's not always because they're "thick". In London I know the debate re the lack of educational achievement in boys linked to the decline in male teachers. You cross that with the race issue and it's even more complicated.

Ah now you're going with my definition of football intelligence? Well that's what I've been driving at. They're good at football. They know how hard to strike the ball, when to time a run, how to employ gamesmanship. They have good spatial awareness. You could now start to talk about different kinds of intelligence. But that's a bloody complicated area. I would however continue to separate football smarts from intellectual ones and general life skills.

You're right, having good advice on hand is advantageous. But some footballers are smarter than others. Tevez for example might be the dumbest, or unluckiest, guy in the game. Mostly the infrastructure is already in place for these guys. Word of mouth is important. I would love to know whether they would make more or less if they didn't employ representation. It would be interesting to know wouldn't it? I suspect it would take a huge amount of balls at a young age to do it yourself or entrust mum or dad.

I never intended to claim Klinnsman's diving was dumb, merely that I note it as a low light of his professional career. I saw him play once and he was excellent in what was really a workmanlike Spurs team.

I'll call it a draw with Barton. I don't know if you're calling *me* dumb but yes he is an unpleasant thug. He's a moron who's been unable to learn from his mistakes. Guess who's got the most yellow cards for QPR this season?

That moment when the band realizes they've made it (0:16)

shinyblurry says...

>> ^Asmo:
>> ^shinyblurry:
It's an observation based on the evidence of thousands of atheists all over the internet (and in real life), on various message boards, comments on articles, blogs, etc..decrying all things spiritual as total absurdity and beneath them, especially as it pertains to the christian faith.
>> ^Asmo:
Your ignorant presumption that an aetheist cannot appreciate music with spiritual themes is judgemental (and baseless), and the fact that you're willing to espouse it makes you an asshole.
You can describe what a person is without discriminating against them. Don't let me stop you crawling up on a cross though. ; )
>> ^shinyblurry:
Apparently you do.



How are you not proving my point here with your presumption that a tiny vocal percentage represent the entire body? Do you subscribe to the hate views of the westboro lunatics? Do I judge all christians based on them? They're rhetorical questions btw, although I doubt your shield of self righteousness and delusion will allow you to consider the implications...
And instead of just enjoying some wonderful music and a great crowd reaction along with everyone else, you come trundling in with your standard shtick designed to cause arguments and controversy. Blessed be the peace makers indeed... /eyeroll


My comment was simply an expression of my surprise that atheists may actually appreciate music with spiritual or christian themes. My initial reaction was rather unfiltered..I was reacting more to the atheists on the sift and not atheists in general. You're right though, my comment essentially pigeonholed all of you inappropiately, but I do know better; I have spoken to a few moderate atheists. I have also have atheist friends. In any case, this could have spurred a much different conversation than the ones who have chosen to respond have brought to the table thus far. I was just curious as to why atheists here would support this kind of music when all I hear from them is that everything Christian or spiritual is poison and should be destroyed.

Sredni Vashtar by Saki (David Bradley Film)

MrFisk says...

SREDNI VASHTAR

Conradin was ten years old, and the doctor had pronounced his professional opinion that the boy would not live another five years. The doctor was silky and effete, and counted for little, but his opinion was endorsed by Mrs. De Ropp, who counted for nearly everything. Mrs. De Ropp was Conradin's cousin and guardian, and in his eyes she represented those three-fifths of the world that are necessary and disagreeable and real; the other two-fifths, in perpetual antagonism to the foregoing, were summed up in himself and his imagination. One of these days Conradin supposed he would succumb to the mastering pressure of wearisome necessary things---such as illnesses and coddling restrictions and drawn-out dulness. Without his imagination, which was rampant under the spur of loneliness, he would have succumbed long ago.

Mrs. De Ropp would never, in her honestest moments, have confessed to herself that she disliked Conradin, though she might have been dimly aware that thwarting him ``for his good'' was a duty which she did not find particularly irksome. Conradin hated her with a desperate sincerity which he was perfectly able to mask. Such few pleasures as he could contrive for himself gained an added relish from the likelihood that they would be displeasing to his guardian, and from the realm of his imagination she was locked out---an unclean thing, which should find no entrance.

In the dull, cheerless garden, overlooked by so many windows that were ready to open with a message not to do this or that, or a reminder that medicines were due, he found little attraction. The few fruit-trees that it contained were set jealously apart from his plucking, as though they were rare specimens of their kind blooming in an arid waste; it would probably have been difficult to find a market-gardener who would have offered ten shillings for their entire yearly produce. In a forgotten corner, however, almost hidden behind a dismal shrubbery, was a disused tool-shed of respectable proportions, and within its walls Conradin found a haven, something that took on the varying aspects of a playroom and a cathedral. He had peopled it with a legion of familiar phantoms, evoked partly from fragments of history and partly from his own brain, but it also boasted two inmates of flesh and blood. In one corner lived a ragged-plumaged Houdan hen, on which the boy lavished an affection that had scarcely another outlet. Further back in the gloom stood a large hutch, divided into two compartments, one of which was fronted with close iron bars. This was the abode of a large polecat-ferret, which a friendly butcher-boy had once smuggled, cage and all, into its present quarters, in exchange for a long-secreted hoard of small silver. Conradin was dreadfully afraid of the lithe, sharp-fanged beast, but it was his most treasured possession. Its very presence in the tool-shed was a secret and fearful joy, to be kept scrupulously from the knowledge of the Woman, as he privately dubbed his cousin. And one day, out of Heaven knows what material, he spun the beast a wonderful name, and from that moment it grew into a god and a religion. The Woman indulged in religion once a week at a church near by, and took Conradin with her, but to him the church service was an alien rite in the House of Rimmon. Every Thursday, in the dim and musty silence of the tool-shed, he worshipped with mystic and elaborate ceremonial before the wooden hutch where dwelt Sredni Vashtar, the great ferret. Red flowers in their season and scarlet berries in the winter-time were offered at his shrine, for he was a god who laid some special stress on the fierce impatient side of things, as opposed to the Woman's religion, which, as far as Conradin could observe, went to great lengths in the contrary direction. And on great festivals powdered nutmeg was strewn in front of his hutch, an important feature of the offering being that the nutmeg had to be stolen. These festivals were of irregular occurrence, and were chiefly appointed to celebrate some passing event. On one occasion, when Mrs. De Ropp suffered from acute toothache for three days, Conradin kept up the festival during the entire three days, and almost succeeded in persuading himself that Sredni Vashtar was personally responsible for the toothache. If the malady had lasted for another day the supply of nutmeg would have given out.

The Houdan hen was never drawn into the cult of Sredni Vashtar. Conradin had long ago settled that she was an Anabaptist. He did not pretend to have the remotest knowledge as to what an Anabaptist was, but he privately hoped that it was dashing and not very respectable. Mrs. De Ropp was the ground plan on which he based and detested all respectability.

After a while Conradin's absorption in the tool-shed began to attract the notice of his guardian. ``It is not good for him to be pottering down there in all weathers,'' she promptly decided, and at breakfast one morning she announced that the Houdan hen had been sold and taken away overnight. With her short-sighted eyes she peered at Conradin, waiting for an outbreak of rage and sorrow, which she was ready to rebuke with a flow of excellent precepts and reasoning. But Conradin said nothing: there was nothing to be said. Something perhaps in his white set face gave her a momentary qualm, for at tea that afternoon there was toast on the table, a delicacy which she usually banned on the ground that it was bad for him; also because the making of it ``gave trouble,'' a deadly offence in the middle-class feminine eye.

``I thought you liked toast,'' she exclaimed, with an injured air, observing that he did not touch it.

``Sometimes,'' said Conradin.

In the shed that evening there was an innovation in the worship of the hutch-god. Conradin had been wont to chant his praises, tonight be asked a boon.

``Do one thing for me, Sredni Vashtar.''

The thing was not specified. As Sredni Vashtar was a god he must be supposed to know. And choking back a sob as he looked at that other empty comer, Conradin went back to the world he so hated.

And every night, in the welcome darkness of his bedroom, and every evening in the dusk of the tool-shed, Conradin's bitter litany went up: ``Do one thing for me, Sredni Vashtar.''

Mrs. De Ropp noticed that the visits to the shed did not cease, and one day she made a further journey of inspection.

``What are you keeping in that locked hutch?'' she asked. ``I believe it's guinea-pigs. I'll have them all cleared away.''

Conradin shut his lips tight, but the Woman ransacked his bedroom till she found the carefully hidden key, and forthwith marched down to the shed to complete her discovery. It was a cold afternoon, and Conradin had been bidden to keep to the house. From the furthest window of the dining-room the door of the shed could just be seen beyond the corner of the shrubbery, and there Conradin stationed himself. He saw the Woman enter, and then be imagined her opening the door of the sacred hutch and peering down with her short-sighted eyes into the thick straw bed where his god lay hidden. Perhaps she would prod at the straw in her clumsy impatience. And Conradin fervently breathed his prayer for the last time. But he knew as he prayed that he did not believe. He knew that the Woman would come out presently with that pursed smile he loathed so well on her face, and that in an hour or two the gardener would carry away his wonderful god, a god no longer, but a simple brown ferret in a hutch. And he knew that the Woman would triumph always as she triumphed now, and that he would grow ever more sickly under her pestering and domineering and superior wisdom, till one day nothing would matter much more with him, and the doctor would be proved right. And in the sting and misery of his defeat, he began to chant loudly and defiantly the hymn of his threatened idol:

Sredni Vashtar went forth,
His thoughts were red thoughts and his teeth were white.
His enemies called for peace, but he brought them death.
Sredni Vashtar the Beautiful.

And then of a sudden he stopped his chanting and drew closer to the window-pane. The door of the shed still stood ajar as it had been left, and the minutes were slipping by. They were long minutes, but they slipped by nevertheless. He watched the starlings running and flying in little parties across the lawn; he counted them over and over again, with one eye always on that swinging door. A sour-faced maid came in to lay the table for tea, and still Conradin stood and waited and watched. Hope had crept by inches into his heart, and now a look of triumph began to blaze in his eyes that had only known the wistful patience of defeat. Under his breath, with a furtive exultation, he began once again the pæan of victory and devastation. And presently his eyes were rewarded: out through that doorway came a long, low, yellow-and-brown beast, with eyes a-blink at the waning daylight, and dark wet stains around the fur of jaws and throat. Conradin dropped on his knees. The great polecat-ferret made its way down to a small brook at the foot of the garden, drank for a moment, then crossed a little plank bridge and was lost to sight in the bushes. Such was the passing of Sredni Vashtar.

``Tea is ready,'' said the sour-faced maid; ``where is the mistress?'' ``She went down to the shed some time ago,'' said Conradin. And while the maid went to summon her mistress to tea, Conradin fished a toasting-fork out of the sideboard drawer and proceeded to toast himself a piece of bread. And during the toasting of it and the buttering of it with much butter and the slow enjoyment of eating it, Conradin listened to the noises and silences which fell in quick spasms beyond the dining-room door. The loud foolish screaming of the maid, the answering chorus of wondering ejaculations from the kitchen region, the scuttering footsteps and hurried embassies for outside help, and then, after a lull, the scared sobbings and the shuffling tread of those who bore a heavy burden into the house.

``Whoever will break it to the poor child? I couldn't for the life of me!'' exclaimed a shrill voice. And while they debated the matter among themselves, Conradin made himself another piece of toast.

Ron Paul: "If it's an honest rape..."

MarineGunrock says...

I don't think you quite understand the mechanics of conception... Just because there's semen in a woman doesn't mean she's conceived. Emergency contraceptives are no different than birth control. They prevent conception from happening. >> ^Porksandwich:

>> ^CaptainPlanet:
>> ^Porksandwich:
I never took the person's pulse before I stabbed them, so you can't prove they were alive. So it's not murder.
Can't eliminate all grey areas under a law, because you need to make an exemption for when someone you know or a big donator needs to skate on something. IE his daughter or grand-daughter gets pregnant by a black man.

a guess your joking, but i don't get it. if your trying to imply that abortion is murder i have to agree, but its a stretch to say that we live in a society that never condones murder.... actually i think your just being an idiot

Ron Paul states that he believes life begins at conception. And prior to this he says that there is no chemical, medical, legal evidence of a pregnancy when administering the treatment to stop the progression of possible conception.
I liken that to saying that you could justify murder by arguing that you have no reason to believe the guy didn't die of natural causes a split second before he was shot/stabbed/ran over. So while it would have been murder, you can't 100% prove due to lack of chemical, medical and legal evidence that he was expired mere seconds before I would have killed him. So at best I stabbed/shot/ran over a corpse that hadn't hit the ground yet.
And I agree, that does sound idiotic.
In the case of someone having a natural death right before something that would have otherwise killed them, they would argue that you intended to kill the guy and ended all chances of him being saved from the natural causes (heart attack, brain bleed, whatever) by your actions. It's more about the intent. If you are giving someone drugs/treatments to abort or prevent any possible pregnancy after the fact, your intent is clear. If you were pregnant you aborted it, if you were not the treatment was unnecessary....but the intent was still the same.
It's an argument basically boils down to: It's an abortion, only if you can prove they were pregnant. But there is no other reason to perform it besides the chance of pregnancy. So why is it not abortion/attempted abortion when the intent is there? And how can he say life begins at conception, but then do these procedures that are designed to prevent or end conceptions before they are legally, medically, and chemically provable?

It's a half joking, devil's advocate kind of argument. We don't give our ages from the day we were conceived, but we definitely begin life prior to our "birth day". So there needs to be a upper limit instated by law, and a general understanding that the doctors and clinics should make sure all information and choices are presented before doing anything permanent. It should definitely not be a spur of the moment choice, where a patient can walk in to a doctor with no previous discussion and say they want an abortion and have it carried out with no information to other options. Once presented with the options, and as long as it's under the legal time limit window, then I don't think anyone can say it should have been any other way than the people involved in it.
I don't technically have a problem with what Ron Paul is saying here, but he states something contrary to his own beliefs. 7 months is probably too far along, the kid could probably survive outside of the mother's body at that point. But if he believes birth begins at conception, doing things to prevent conception that ALSO ends conception and justifying it as no medical/legal/chemical proof of conception....that's just hypocritical.
That kind of grey area lurking to satiate the need for abortions, but still sticking to your hardline statements is chicken shit justification.

Ron Paul: "If it's an honest rape..."

Porksandwich says...

>> ^CaptainPlanet:

>> ^Porksandwich:
I never took the person's pulse before I stabbed them, so you can't prove they were alive. So it's not murder.
Can't eliminate all grey areas under a law, because you need to make an exemption for when someone you know or a big donator needs to skate on something. IE his daughter or grand-daughter gets pregnant by a black man.

a guess your joking, but i don't get it. if your trying to imply that abortion is murder i have to agree, but its a stretch to say that we live in a society that never condones murder.... actually i think your just being an idiot


Ron Paul states that he believes life begins at conception. And prior to this he says that there is no chemical, medical, legal evidence of a pregnancy when administering the treatment to stop the progression of possible conception.

I liken that to saying that you could justify murder by arguing that you have no reason to believe the guy didn't die of natural causes a split second before he was shot/stabbed/ran over. So while it would have been murder, you can't 100% prove due to lack of chemical, medical and legal evidence that he was expired mere seconds before I would have killed him. So at best I stabbed/shot/ran over a corpse that hadn't hit the ground yet.

And I agree, that does sound idiotic.

In the case of someone having a natural death right before something that would have otherwise killed them, they would argue that you intended to kill the guy and ended all chances of him being saved from the natural causes (heart attack, brain bleed, whatever) by your actions. It's more about the intent. If you are giving someone drugs/treatments to abort or prevent any possible pregnancy after the fact, your intent is clear. If you were pregnant you aborted it, if you were not the treatment was unnecessary....but the intent was still the same.

It's an argument basically boils down to: It's an abortion, only if you can prove they were pregnant. But there is no other reason to perform it besides the chance of pregnancy. So why is it not abortion/attempted abortion when the intent is there? And how can he say life begins at conception, but then do these procedures that are designed to prevent or end conceptions before they are legally, medically, and chemically provable?


It's a half joking, devil's advocate kind of argument. We don't give our ages from the day we were conceived, but we definitely begin life prior to our "birth day". So there needs to be a upper limit instated by law, and a general understanding that the doctors and clinics should make sure all information and choices are presented before doing anything permanent. It should definitely not be a spur of the moment choice, where a patient can walk in to a doctor with no previous discussion and say they want an abortion and have it carried out with no information to other options. Once presented with the options, and as long as it's under the legal time limit window, then I don't think anyone can say it should have been any other way than the people involved in it.

I don't technically have a problem with what Ron Paul is saying here, but he states something contrary to his own beliefs. 7 months is probably too far along, the kid could probably survive outside of the mother's body at that point. But if he believes birth begins at conception, doing things to prevent conception that ALSO ends conception and justifying it as no medical/legal/chemical proof of conception....that's just hypocritical.

That kind of grey area lurking to satiate the need for abortions, but still sticking to your hardline statements is chicken shit justification.

Big Oil’s Puppets Love Keystone XL

ghark says...

Ahh, I upvoted before realizing this was campaign rhetoric designed to attack the Republicans rather than outline the real issue - that both parties wanted the pipeline to go ahead:

47 House Democrats voted to require the administration to quickly act on the Keystone XL project, helping to pass the North American-Made Energy Security Act (H.R. 1938).

Nearly two dozen House Democrats wrote a letter to President Obama asking him to approve the Keystone XL project, saying it will “create 20,000 direct jobs, spur the creation of 118,000 spin-off jobs.” The Democrats note that several environmental reviews show “the Keystone XL Pipeline will have no significant impact on the environment.”

A bipartisan group of 14 Senators wrote a letter to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in support of the Keystone project. The Senators said Keystone XL would “provide thousands of high-quality jobs for Americans and invest billions of private sector dollars in our nation's economy.”

Both of Montana’s Democratic Senators support the Keystone energy project, including Sen. Max Baucus (D-MT) who said, “We need to put Montanans back to work and cannot afford further delays to the Keystone XL pipeline.”

“The Keystone pipeline will create Montana jobs,” said Sen. Jon Tester (D-MT), “And it should not have to wait 14 months for an up-or-down decision…”

“I support the Keystone XL project,” said Rep. Mike Ross (D-AR). “You want to talk about shovel-ready projects, that’s one that’s shovel-ready,” reported Politico.

“I think the president’s wrong on this,” said Rep. Dennis Cardoza (D-CA) who is “inclined to vote for the GOP’s version of the payroll tax cut measure” because he supports both the payroll tax break extension and the Keystone XL jobs project, according to Politico.

“I probably would vote to accept the deal,” said Rep. Emanuel Cleaver (D-MO) on MSNBC’s Morning Joe.

“Rep. Gene Green (D-Texas) said he’s not swayed by Obama’s veiled veto pledge,” says Politico. “The Keystone is awfully important,” he said. The article highlights several other Democrats who support both the payroll tax break and the energy project.

These are from http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?postid=271882



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