Famine is a lack of successful agriculture - faster dripping from the bottom.
People aren't starving in lush fields and full employment.

Those where agriculture is succcessful it's no where near saturated or 100% efficient and waste and consumption has no controls on it what so ever.

Of course "the world" can handle more people.

It will create pressure for find and use food better. It will probably also force people to leave areas where food can't be grown to sustain them. All creatures migrate - it's national boarders which are unnatural.

This video is also mis-leading in saying the birth rate remains the same. In all countries which build a larger middle class the birth rate drops considerably. Most of Asia is well on the way to developing out of this '10 children per family' model.

The "anonymous" suggestion is a fair point. But that's the way that people donate to charity these days. Are you two prepared to say that about everyone else who donates and wants to see their name on the list? That everyone who doesn't donate anonymously is doing it for political reasons? I could understand how someone who donated, even if they didn't think about their name in print, would be upset if they got a call that said, "Sorry, but because of your beliefs, we can't put you on a pedestal like we do with every single other donor that contributes."

Well, the reason the FBB was donating was to be listed as one of the teams on the "relay for life" program. That's what they were turned down for. Not only that, but they used to whole thing to garner publicity. So I am not feeling too much sympathy for them at this point.

I agree that the reason many people/organizations who donate large amounts of money is specifically to get on those lists. So yes, I am prepared to say that many on those lists are doing so for political reasons. Perhaps not all of them, but I would say probably the majority.

We may live in a society where those with religious beliefs might feel that things are going downhill. But by and large, the majority of America is still very uncomfortable with Atheism. Something like 70% of Americans believe that Christ is the savior in one way or another. And most of the rest are still religious. So I think it's understandable that atheists feel the need to stick up for themselves. Especially in situations like this, where they can show that they still care for their fellow human beings, regardless of anyone's beliefs.

Well, I think the problem that most believers have is that the stated goal of many atheists and atheists organizations is to remove religion from the public sphere or irradicate it entirely. The mouthpieces for the New Atheism say in no uncertain terms that people who have faith are pinheads and that religion is the worst thing to ever happen. It's certainly not a live and let live kind of attitude that is being promoted as representing atheism.

Shiny! What a coincidence that I am just recently becoming acquainted with the first few verses of Matthew!

Ahh, but I don't believe in coincidence.

Someone was passing around a picture of this giant mega-church the other day that was all sparkles and spot-lights and looked like the bridge to the Starship Enterprise. Anyway, I found this reference to Matthew 6:6 and was very surprised by the fact that people don't seem to recognize it in their lives.

Yes, and sadly, that is just scratching the surface. The bible for many seems to be book of allegory, filled with mere suggestions on how to live our lives, rather than the direct commands of God. That's why you'll find Christians in bars, Christians smoking weed, and Christians cheating on their taxes. More than that, false doctrine has invaded the church. A very popular one right now is the "Health, wealth and prosperity" gospel, which teaches that God only wants you to be rich, and people who are poor and suffering just don't have enough faith.

Now, I understand that proselytizing and praying are two different things. So I'm not telling you to shut up. But the idea that praying should be done in secret, according to the bible, is something that I find remarkable given the televangelist America that we live in. And obviously, if people truly cared, they would apply that same idea to charity as well. Unfortunately, as QM said above, everything seems to be political, even praying.

That is the thing, that it is all being done for show. It is not about salvation, or sanctification; it is about sterling and silver. This is what is truly harmful, that the public face of Christianity is so far astray from the true teachings of the bible. Light years away from it in fact. The airwaves are saturated with false teachers, who proclaim that God is the great ATM in the sky, and if you only send in some money He'll give you the pin number. They are wolves in sheeps clothing, preaching a man-centered doctrine, to tickle the itching ears of people who seek out teachers who will tell them what they want to hear. "No, you don't need to change! God loves you the way you are!" The bible is not so kind to such people:

Galatians 1:8

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

Just out of curiosity, do you have a favorite version/translation of the bible? Because even simple things like the verses we're discussing seem to be changed around quite a bit. I especially love the ones that read Matthew 6:6 as: "Go into your closet to pray."

haha, yes..some of these translations are very poor/strange. I prefer the ESV, it is probably the best modern literal translation. The KJV can be a good supplement, because although it used less accurate manuscripts, its archaic language preserved some of the meaning that the more modern translations may have glossed over. bible.cc is a good site for comparing verses. Here's a good sermon on Matthew 6:5-6

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=813081634369


>> ^Ryjkyj:
The "anonymous" suggestion is a fair point. But that's the way that people donate to charity these days. Are you two prepared to say that about everyone else who donates and wants to see their name on the list? That everyone who doesn't donate anonymously is doing it for political reasons? I could understand how someone who donated, even if they didn't think about their name in print, would be upset if they got a call that said, "Sorry, but because of your beliefs, we can't put you on a pedestal like we do with every single other donor that contributes."
We may live in a society where those with religious beliefs might feel that things are going downhill. But by and large, the majority of America is still very uncomfortable with Atheism. Something like 70% of Americans believe that Christ is the savior in one way or another. And most of the rest are still religious. So I think it's understandable that atheists feel the need to stick up for themselves. Especially in situations like this, where they can show that they still care for their fellow human beings, regardless of anyone's beliefs.
>> ^quantumushroom:
I don't pretend to know the atheists' true motives, but everything is political. Everything. This arrangement sucks and I wish it were not so, but it is. An anonymous donation would've been more apropos if the highest goal was really helping the charity versus branding positive atheism.
As we both know, that doesn't hold true online. Why, we may be the only two peeps online now who even admit to not having all the answers!

Shiny! What a coincidence that I am just recently becoming acquainted with the first few verses of Matthew!
Someone was passing around a picture of this giant mega-church the other day that was all sparkles and spot-lights and looked like the bridge to the Starship Enterprise. Anyway, I found this reference to Matthew 6:6 and was very surprised by the fact that people don't seem to recognize it in their lives.
Now, I understand that proselytizing and praying are two different things. So I'm not telling you to shut up. But the idea that praying should be done in secret, according to the bible, is something that I find remarkable given the televangelist America that we live in. And obviously, if people truly cared, they would apply that same idea to charity as well. Unfortunately, as QM said above, everything seems to be political, even praying.
Just out of curiosity, do you have a favorite version/translation of the bible? Because even simple things like the verses we're discussing seem to be changed around quite a bit. I especially love the ones that read Matthew 6:6 as: "Go into your closet to pray." <IMG class=smiley src="http://cdn.videosift.com/cdm/emoticon/smileopen.gif">
>> ^shinyblurry:
If they were humble, and this really was about helping cancer patients, they would have given the donation anonymously. Clearly for the atheists this was more about having a feather in their cap than helping people. Reminds me of this verse:
Matthew 6:2-3
Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Animals can't sin, it isn't about right or wrong for them. The passage states the way of all flesh had been corrupted..that could mean a number of things, but it isnt expressly said what that meant for animals. I think God might correct an animals behavior since it doesn't have free choice, personally. An animal doesn't have rights, they were put here under the dominion of human beings, for our benefit.

We're all born with a sin nature, so there isn't such a thing as an innocent person, child or not. I think it is to say that the world was so bent on evil at that point that they wouldn't have a chance. As far as where the water came from, it also came from underground. Here is one underground ocean that was discovered:

http://www.livescience.com/1312-huge-ocean-discovered-earth.html

>> ^Grimm:
As silly as that statement is that all animals had become wicked...it can't be true according to the story since Noah and his crew had to collect a bunch to be saved.
You believe that all the children and all the infants were not evil but destined to be evil? Now what happened to this "freedom" that God gave them?
The reset button? Now that IS something I think an omnipotent being would be capable of. With one flip of the almighty reset button all the wicked men, women, and animals would be dead...gone...turned to dust. But this whole Noah has to build a big ass boat and collect all the species of the planet and then a rainstorm that floods the ENTIRE earth...even covering the tallest mountain? Have you even thought of how much water that is? That doesn't sound like the work of an omnipotent being. It sounds like a campfire story created by primitive men.>> ^shinyblurry:
It says all flesh, which would include animals. At that point the entire world had been overtaken by wickedness, so the children of the time were destined to grow up even worse than their parents. The animals, too, had their ways corrupted by their close contact with human beings. Basically, evil had reached a point of total saturation and God hit the reset button.
>> ^Grimm:
So you actually believe the was a point in time that EVERY living human was evil? Every man, woman, child and infant except for a single family?
Also why the need for this omnipotent being to destroy all living animals on the planet as well?

As silly as that statement is that all animals had become wicked...it can't be true according to the story since Noah and his crew had to collect a bunch to be saved.

You believe that all the children and all the infants were not evil but destined to be evil? Now what happened to this "freedom" that God gave them?

The reset button? Now that IS something I think an omnipotent being would be capable of. With one flip of the almighty reset button all the wicked men, women, and animals would be dead...gone...turned to dust. But this whole Noah has to build a big ass boat and collect all the species of the planet and then a rainstorm that floods the ENTIRE earth...even covering the tallest mountain? Have you even thought of how much water that is? That doesn't sound like the work of an omnipotent being. It sounds like a campfire story created by primitive men.>> ^shinyblurry:


It says all flesh, which would include animals. At that point the entire world had been overtaken by wickedness, so the children of the time were destined to grow up even worse than their parents. The animals, too, had their ways corrupted by their close contact with human beings. Basically, evil had reached a point of total saturation and God hit the reset button.
>> ^Grimm:
So you actually believe the was a point in time that EVERY living human was evil? Every man, woman, child and infant except for a single family?
Also why the need for this omnipotent being to destroy all living animals on the planet as well?

Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth. (Genesis 6:11-13)

It says all flesh, which would include animals. At that point the entire world had been overtaken by wickedness, so the children of the time were destined to grow up even worse than their parents. The animals, too, had their ways corrupted by their close contact with human beings. Basically, evil had reached a point of total saturation and God hit the reset button.

edit: Sorry I missed your question earlier. It isn't about punishment and reward. It is about right and wrong. If you're a wicked person who disregards the warnings because you value your autonomy to sin over doing what is right, you deserve what you get. You won't be able to say it wasn't made clear to you what would happen, nor will you be able to deny your guilt. You have no idea how terrible even one sin is, or what its effects and implications are. Just one wicked act could spawn many others, and effect many lives. You can see this effect when people duplicate crimes and reprobate behaviors that they witness others doing. It's not a gun to your head, it is the content of your character and what is in your heart; it is the imperative to do what is right and the consequences of failing to do so. God doesn't get any pleasure from punishing the wicked. Even still while we are sinners, God is patient with us because He desires all of His children to come to repentance.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

>> ^Grimm:
So you actually believe the was a point in time that EVERY living human was evil? Every man, woman, child and infant except for a single family?
Also why the need for this omnipotent being to destroy all living animals on the planet as well? What "law" of his did they break?>> ^shinyblurry:
God destroyed the entire world in a flood that left 8 people alive. God is sovereign over His creation and we are under His law, and His judgement. Specifically, His condemnation was against wickedness:
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."



>> ^Grimm:
So you actually believe the was a point in time that EVERY living human was evil? Every man, woman, child and infant except for a single family?
Also why the need for this omnipotent being to destroy all living animals on the planet as well? What "law" of his did they break?>> ^shinyblurry:
God destroyed the entire world in a flood that left 8 people alive. God is sovereign over His creation and we are under His law, and His judgement. Specifically, His condemnation was against wickedness:
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

@Winstonfield_Pennypacker Your enlarged right amygdala is showing.

Even so, I agree that the discussion is often "is it occuring?" rather than "are humans affecting climate?", which is a problem.

Also, it would be cool if you didn't saturate your posts with ad hominem attacks. If you have a good point to make, you don't need to add the equivalent of "warmies", "bozo", etc. to every post you ever make. As for people calling you an idiot being the same thing...well...at least they're attacking you personally rather than some nebulous group you've labeled "warmies".

>> ^Yogi:

I surprisingly don't blame the Tea Partiers for getting fed up and voting for people who said they'd do what they want. I blame the Left in this country who when millions looked for answers why they have to work two jobs just to keep slipping behind all the time when they were told if they worked hard they'd get everything they deserved the left had no answers for them.
They could've educated, they could've lobbied for people to join a cause against the wealthiest in America, against those who own and run our country. They didn't, they fucked up. I'll blame them before I blame the Tea Party cause I actually understand where that anger and search for answers comes from.
Although it distresses me that so many people are easily lead towards their own destruction.


im with yogi on this.
you cant blame people for being angry.they have good reason.
it just saddens me so many have been so thoroughly indoctrinated by american media which is so saturated with propaganda and is the prime reason that so many identify with the corporate sponsored "tea party".

[redacted]

>> ^ForgedReality:

GUYS. IT'S NOT A REAL DOLLAR. RELAX. He printed it. Notice how it not only looks completely different from the one he had in the prior scene, but there is far too much saturation and contrast on that paper.


THEN IT LOOKS LIKE HE'S REALLY IN TROUBLE.

GUYS. IT'S NOT A REAL DOLLAR. RELAX. He printed it. Notice how it not only looks completely different from the one he had in the prior scene, but there is far too much saturation and contrast on that paper.

Oh, come now, @blankfist. You of all people should CHERISH the 2nd Amendment. After all, it was written expressly for the reasons you hold your personal views: to protect the people from a government saturated with power and attempting to enact complete control over its people.


Also, do you honestly believe that if we banned all guns, that criminals would no longer have them? By definition, they'd be the ONLY people to have them. Herion is illegal, but people still posses it. Larceny is illegal but people still do it. Murder is illegal but people still do it. This could go on, ad nauseum.

>> ^rottenseed:

I just watched "Fat Head" a response to "Super-size Me". It contained a lot of appealing facts that I will never bother to fact check. If you, too, are mentally lazy like me, you should watch it. It's low-budget but it's amusing.>> ^MaxWilder:
>> ^gwiz665:
Jebus christ. I mean, seriously, they should have layed off the big macs back in school. America, you need to run your ass around the block a few times.

As someone who is currently (perennially) trying to lose weight, I wish it was something as simple as running around the block a few times. I trained for a marathon two years ago and simply stopped losing weight during the process. I remained 30 lbs above my goal weight, and ran (and finished) the marathon like that. For people who are not naturally lean, it is the difficult (near impossible) combination of proper exercise with proper diet that causes them to often simply give up. It also an unhappy truth that the cheapest food is the least healthy, so poor people are much more likely to be malnourished into obesity.
As to the video, in this particular case, laughing is totally appropriate. But when it's a fat person by themselves, I am usually just saddened. And I always remember that phrase, "Are you riding a scooter because you're fat, or fat because you are riding a scooter?"



I've read about "Fat Head" and it makes a compelling argument. It is theoretically possible to have a healthy weight while eating crappy food. However, we shouldn't be looking at what a single person can accomplish while on a mission to debunk a fear-mongering documentary. We should be looking at the statistics of the category of people who are obese: what is caused their obesity and what is preventing them from losing the fat?

I have no specifics to back up my current opinion. It is a position I have decided upon after many years of personal experience and reading a wide variety of books on getting in shape. It is my belief that the core ingredients of fast food are simple carbohydrates and saturated fats. These ingredients have a 1-2 punch on the metabolism, spiking the insulin response which pushes calories into formation of fat, then crashing the insulin response making the body feel hungry again. Riding this cycle over the long term creates larger and larger appetites, encouraging the consumer to purchase more and more food. Bad for the body, but good for the restaurants. Protein can help reduce the insulin spike, but fast food usually comes with very fatty protein, so that's not much of a help. And vegetables aren't very tasty, so they are easily overlooked.

What I'm saying is that people who are overweight are trapped in a cycle they don't understand, and even if they do understand it, it is very hard to break out. It is literally an addiction like smoking, except you can't quit cold turkey (pun not intended). You can't stop eating. You have to keep eating, but choosing foods you don't enjoy because your habits have been warped by the cheap food industry.

I don't think we should legislate. I'll be the first to stand up and say don't blame McDonald's for your weight problem (even though it's kinda their fault). I'm saying we need to educate. And make that education based on clinical studies, not lobbyist funding like the USDA's myplate program. Teach people the proper balance of protein, carbs, and fat. Teach them the proper forms those nutrients should come in (lean and whole, not processed and sugary). Teach them the benefits of vegetables. This information has got to be in our faces so that we can't ignore it.

But even if we do that, this generation is a lost cause. I work my ass off to get in shape, but I keep falling off the wagon because the craving for fast food gets to be too much. That "high" from a sugary insulin spike calls to me. I'm not kidding that it's an addiction. We need to teach people that, so that kids and parents can keep away and not get hooked.

>> ^Sketch:
I think this needs to be in my playlist for the discussion alone, but also as a prime example of how the brain can easily misfire. I once had a salvia trip where I was absolutely certain, and despondent, that I was trapped in an insignificant, utilitarian corner of reality as a kind of giant roller stamped down every moment of existence on top of me and then passed me by. When I came out of it I was emotionally drained and relieved. I certainly do not still believe that time and space is actually rolled out, and I certainly don't call my experience "testimony" for anything. This man has done nothing but misinterpret imagery from his own temporarily broken brain into something far more meaningful than it was, and then told everyone that his experience was true.
Do a lot of people come up with this same imagery when they have similar situations? Absolutely! When your culture is super-saturated with religious imagery (particular religion dependent on region and parenting, of course), then it's not a stretch to find it seep into one's subconscious mind and present itself in delusional visions during such extreme neurological events.


I think there is probably a bit of difference between tripping out on drugs and thinking that the Universe is trying to destroy you and having an experience where God comes to you, heals you on every level to the extent that your life is profoundly changed, and then proceeds to review your entire life with you before sending you back to your body. He explains all of this with an uncommon clarity..doesn't seem like it was a fever dream to me.

I think this needs to be in my playlist for the discussion alone, but also as a prime example of how the brain can easily misfire. I once had a salvia trip where I was absolutely certain, and despondent, that I was trapped in an insignificant, utilitarian corner of reality as a kind of giant roller stamped down every moment of existence on top of me and then passed me by. When I came out of it I was emotionally drained and relieved. I certainly do not still believe that time and space is actually rolled out, and I certainly don't call my experience "testimony" for anything. This man has done nothing but misinterpret imagery from his own temporarily broken brain into something far more meaningful than it was, and then told everyone that his experience was true.

Do a lot of people come up with this same imagery when they have similar situations? Absolutely! When your culture is super-saturated with religious imagery (particular religion dependent on region and parenting, of course), then it's not a stretch to find it seep into one's subconscious mind and present itself in delusional visions during such extreme neurological events.

I know the news is over-saturated with bin Laden now but this analysis of world affairs is actually quite good.