Americans are a fiction. There's no such things as a American language or culture and no unique genetic American makeup.

The American language is English and its unique culture of freedom and commerce allows many disparate groups of people to live as one nation. Anyone can become an American. There are both Jewish and Arab-Americans and lo, they're not killing in the streets.

Observe the size of the Arab nations surrounding Israel. They do nothing to absorb or help their "brothers" the Palestinians; they'd rather use them as a thorn in Israel's side..

Arab nations have no interest in getting in a prolonged war with Israel, its political and economic suicide. Both Saudi Arabia and Eygpt have normalized relations with Israel through American policy of paying people off.

Arab nations could easily absorb ALL the "Palestinians" if they wanted to. Why would Israel object to people who want to kill them moving away? And if your cynical idea that the Saudis and Egyptians were "paid off" to have peace is accurate, isn't that better than the endless war and "Israeli cruelty" bemoaned here?

Palestinians have been allowed to flee into GCC states for years even though there is no firm Palestinian government or passport. There are huge Palestinian populations and refugee camps in every GCC state.

"Refugee camps" implies that the Palestinians aren't welcome in their new countries. They're still being used as pawns, victims of "Zionism". Seems a lot of Arab monarchs depend on hatred of the Jews to keep their power. Old habits die hard.

It's no great secret that Jews are reviled in many lands, yet no one seems willing to give them a land of their own, which was in fact THEIR land 5000 years ago.

By your logic you should move out and give back all the lands to American Indians which were murdered by colonists. The land of Jerusalem was occupied by every religious and ethnic denomination over the course of time, its fallacious to claim one ethnic group deserves the land more then the other. This isn't the time of the Crusades.

The American Indians were not "native" to the Americas but crossed the land bridge that used to exist between Russia and Alaska. Not only do American Indians have full American citizenship but their own nations. There is no mandate among the American Indian nations to attack and kill Euro and other Americans. Unlike the Jews, Indians of the Americas were not spread across 80 countries with no homeland to speak of.

Israel is surrounded by enemies on every side. They have no choice but to defend themselves.

Israel isn't surrounded by enemies on every side, a common myth peddled by Israel's apologists, American dollars have bought the tacit tolerance and indifference of Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Lebanon simply wishes to be left alone to be able to rebuild after it was punished for the actions of Hezboallah. Syria was bombed by IDF planes about a possible nuclear site of which details are murky and under reported because there is no conclusive evidence of it. The only nation consistently bombing people using high tech is Israel, who wanted to go as far as bombing Iran and destabilizing the region further when no nuclear weapons have been developed.

Which is the only nation in the Middle East with nuclear weapons? Israel.

If "Palestine" had nukes they would've already have used them. There is no way a Palestinian 'state' can ever be allowed to exist, because it would become just another launchpad for hamas attacks.

>> ^Yehoshua:
You're ignorant, Farhad. Yehoshua is Joshua. Which is my name. Yeshua, on the other hand...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua_(name)

There is debate about the Hebrew phrasing of Jesus between Yehoshua, Yeshua or Yeshu by references from Numbers, the old testament and writings of the time. But that's besides the point. But lets not get into a theological discussion here.

Do you disagree that the elections that put Hamas in power were free?

Elections are the only form of expression the Palestinians had in opposing the Fatah government, it was their way of showing a loss of confidence in Fatah which at the time was in utter turmoil. Remember at the time Condi Rice and Bush as a whole were pushing for democratic action in the Middle East as a whole (ironically not with Egypt or Saudi Arabia).

When Hamas won Israel and the US basically went around Hamas and started to reinstate Fatah as the power representation of Palestine. Hamas isn't wholly compromised of terrorists, as its cell based, negotiations and concessions would have been better then outright ignoring Hamas and further imposing a blockade on Gaza. Which only solidified extremist elements within Hamas.

The lack of dealing with your enemies is a severe strategic failure shown by both the US and Israel, even during the height of the Cold War there was constant contact and negotiation to avert a possible third world war. Talking to Hamas would have been difficult as Israel does not claim responsibility for many hostile actions over the last 60 years as it never gives a platform to Palestinian interests, its always wanted to deal down concessions to Palestinians.

As to Lebanon, it's my understanding that the head of Hezbollah apologized for the war in Lebanon, until he heard that the Israelis considered it a defeat. Then he proclaimed that it was a tremendous victory for Lebanon. As a matter of fact, the Lebanon border had been very quiet up until this latest conflict, and still remains relatively quiet.

Hasan Nasrallah is an idiot, but one cannot simply brush aside the massive excessive and needless military campaign Israel brought down on Lebanon. This is where the 2006 war was a failure because it painted Israel in entirely the wrong light, when it basically decapitated Lebanon's social and economic structure. Israel won the battle but lost the war.

Israel sets very high goals for itself, and when it does not meet them, it considers that a failure. I don't think that's wrong, but I don't think that means that Israel should stop protecting itself.

On this point I disagree with you as what Israel claims on political channels is disconnected with the reality on the ground, by treating the Palestinians as prisoners, by constantly forcing them through countless check points, taking pot shots at them and over watching them with large towers, bulldozing their homes to build settlements it only further marginalizes and drives Palestinian people to terrorist act which it then claims it defends itself from.

Israeli policy on the ground provokes the very attacks it then uses as a pretext to occupy Palestinian lands. The most apparent of which can be seen on US media which so commonly shows Israeli soldiers fighting civilians with rocks, defending Isreali 'settlements' which they never explain to say that its Palestinian homes bulldozed over. This skewed perception is the reason a recent poll showed that almost half of the US population supports Israeli actions because of differing Media narrative provided.

Something that is explored in this sift http://www.videosift.com/video/Global-Pulse-Analysis-of-Gaza-Media-War-and-Reportage

I say this again and again, terrorist actions in Palestine towards Israel is a symptom not a disease, which can be found in parallel with the independence wars fought by Algerian rebels with France and Americans with the English and many others.

>> ^quantumushroom:
Palestinians are a fiction. There's no such things as a Palestinian
language or culture and no unique genetic Palestinian makeup.

Americans are a fiction. There's no such things as a American language or culture and no unique genetic American makeup.

Observe the size of the Arab nations surrounding Israel. They do nothing to absorb or help their "brothers" the Palestinians; they'd rather use them as a thorn in Israel's side.

Arab nations have no interest in getting in a prolonged war with Israel, its political and economic suicide. Both Saudi Arabia and Eygpt have normalized relations with Israel through American policy of paying people off.

Palestinians have been allowed to flee into GCC states for years even though there is no firm Palestinian government or passport. There are huge Palestinian populations and refugee camps in every GCC state.

It's no great secret that Jews are reviled in many lands, yet no one seems willing to give them a land of their own, which was in fact THEIR land 5000 years ago.

By your logic you should move out and give back all the lands to American Indians which were murdered by colonists. The land of Jerusalem was occupied by every religious and ethnic denomination over the course of time, its fallacious to claim one ethnic group deserves the land more then the other. This isn't the time of the Crusades.

Israel is surrounded by enemies on every side. They have no choice but to defend themselves.

Israel isn't surrounded by enemies on every side, a common myth peddled by Israel's apologists, American dollars have bought the tacit tolerance and indifference of Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Lebanon simply wishes to be left alone to be able to rebuild after it was punished for the actions of Hezboallah. Syria was bombed by IDF planes about a possible nuclear site of which details are murky and under reported because there is no conclusive evidence of it. The only nation consistently bombing people using high tech is Israel, who wanted to go as far as bombing Iran and destabilizing the region further when no nuclear weapons have been developed.

Which is the only nation in the Middle East with nuclear weapons? Israel.

I would add that Egypt borders the Gaza strip, and has not allowed aid through. I would also hasten to add that I wouldn't be surprised if they are doing so at the request of Israel, but I don't know either way. Something to think about.

Separately, dead tofu, I will admit that I have very little knowledge of the Talmud, but I would say that I personally disavow all of the statements on that page, whether they are translated properly or taken out of context, and doubt that you could find ten thousand Jews in the entire world who agreed with those statements.

I know that you could find similarly abhorrent statements in the texts of any of the major religions, and that those statements have very little to do with the actual practice of most of the members of those religions.

I also don't much like Menachem Begin. He's kind a Nixonian figure to Israel; he led violent activity against the British before Israeli independence, signed a peace treaty with Egypt (giving back the Sinai), and then ordered the unsuccessful invasion of Lebanon after the attempted assassination of Israel's diplomat to the UK.

He's the quote from the speech he gave after the no-confidence vote in the Knesset regarding the war in Lebanon:

"The children of Israel will happily go to school and joyfully return home, just like the children in Washington, in Moscow, and in Peking, in Paris and in Rome, in Oslo, in Stockholm and in Copenhagen. The fate of... Jewish children has been different from all the children of the world throughout the generations. No more. We will defend our children. If the hand of any two-footed animal is raised against them, that hand will be cut off, and our children will grow up in joy in the homes of their parents."

He's talking about killing people who try kill Israeli children.

See this site for more examples of misquotes: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=766&x_context=2

You're ignorant, Farhad. Yehoshua is Joshua. Which is my name.

Yeshua, on the other hand...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua_(name)

Furthermore, I'm not simply "peddling a line of bullshit."

You are antagonistic without acknowledging any of the truth of what I say - it does not strengthen your case, it weakens it.

If you have some disagreement about my understanding of the history of the region, explain it instead of simply calling me a liar. Your rage is apparent, but unsupported.

Do you disagree that the elections that put Hamas in power were free? That they are expressing the will of their populace? Would you absolve Americans from responsibility for Bush's mistakes around the world? I wouldn't. If I'm not mistaken, the current economic crisis we're suffering seems connected to policies of this past government.

As an American, I abhor most of what the Bush administration has said and done to this country and our civil liberties, not to mention the world and our standing in it.

As to Lebanon, it's my understanding that the head of Hezbollah apologized for the war in Lebanon, until he heard that the Israelis considered it a defeat. Then he proclaimed that it was a tremendous victory for Lebanon. As a matter of fact, the Lebanon border had been very quiet up until this latest conflict, and still remains relatively quiet.

Israel sets very high goals for itself, and when it does not meet them, it considers that a failure. I don't think that's wrong, but I don't think that means that Israel should stop protecting itself.

Do I think the invasion of Gaza will lead to peace all by itself? Of course not. Do I think it will cause some problems for Israel? Yes. However, I believe that it holds significant hope for doing more good than harm, as far as peace in the region is concerned.

Are you here for reasoned discussion, Farhad, or simply to have others agree with you and foment hatred against Israel and the Jewish people?

It is the refusal to find common ground and accept disagreement without demeaning and vilifying the other side that makes this conflict intractable. That way of thought perpetuates the problem.

Yehoshua, you don't disagree so much as you peddle forth the same BS spit out by the Israel media to justify the actions of the IDF. Shit your name is the Jewish pronounciation of Jesus for goddsakes.

And its not like you bring forth any objectivity to the discussion, not to mention that your comments are woefully ignorant or rather malicious in their reading of history and the conflict at large.

Hamas was elected not only because of it being terrorist, shit the Americans voted in Bush should we condemn all Americans to die for their unlawful unilateral military actions? Hamas provided the Palestinian people with a government that provided schools and hospitals when Fatah was too busy with infighting over who controls what after Yasser Araft died who ran the thing as his personal mob business more then any government institution that cared for its people.

Hamas is a reflection and embodiment of the bitterness that Isreal has wrought on the Palestinian people over the last 60 years, it is foolish and stupidity to simply relegate peoples actions to terrorism without thinking about what exactly drives a populace or a single person to resist and fight to the death.

To say that Israel is conducting this 'war' as safely as possible is the dumbest shit I ever heard, you yourself claim that war is hell yet at the same time you really believe that bombing and killing civilians will suddenly enlight them and turn them into docile democratic people. How is Israel showing care by telling Gazans to basically internally flee within the open air prison they set up with blockades, necessitating the tunnels that smuggle goods in. The Gazan blockade has been in effect since June of last year, something that Israel has claimed was to destroy Hamas as well by applying collective punishment of all Gazans, a war crime under Geneva conventions. Violence simply begets violence see the current destabilized Iraq and Afghanistan as a whole.

As a military strategy its disconnected with what Livni claims of peace and ending Hamas, the Lebanese war showed that all of Israel's military power could not destroy Hezboallah and what was the cost of this failure? The utter devastation of most of Lebanon. How did that work out for Israel? A great success? Will this hostile action cease the attacks or simply create even more fundamentalism in a people who see right that the world at large care not for their plight.

Countless cases have shown that COIN works best in fighting terrorism that is allying yourself with the general population to seek a common objective, this was shown to work in several locations in Iraq such as Mosul. However Israel has no common objective with the Palestinian people who they have shoved into smaller and smaller enclaves through slow acquisition of lands by 'settlers'. The west bank looks like fucking swiss cheese now. Israel seeks simply to acquire and hold land. It's military power assures even though civilian deaths will occur through hostile action, in the long term the land will become theirs.

But this is what Israel wants and needs, a perpetual war to keep its population in check and to continue having American support. To claim its fighting the good fight killing mostly civilians so that it can win elections.

But hell what do you care you come simply to shill propagandistic bullshit and by lines of the Israel apologist media who don't even cover Gaza because IDF does not allow reporters in.

I could on and on deconstructing your thinly veiled apologizes for what are essentially war crimes.

Think of the analogy of what is happening in Gaza, The US is being bombed by Russia because Russia is sick and tired of the nuclear threat America presents. Russia is full justified in assuring its national security and hopes that by bombing major population centers of America, the American people will rise up and over throw their tyrannical government that they voted in.

kthxbye.

>> ^joedirt:
Screw them, hoarding all the food there. I'll bet they had enough food for thousands, if not millions.
I'm glad Israel is exposing these criminals (IDF only attacks criminals) and showing the world what kind of evil, sick people are there. They deserve it, let the phosphorus rain down upon them like napalm!



Um... The United Nations and the international media are "evil, sick people" and should be burned alive by illegal IDF chemicals?? Are you serious??!

What did the international media ever do to you to deserve such ire?

This isn't the first time that the IDF has attacked the UN. I guess they don't like witnesses or something for some reason...

Well, we both know, and Israel knows, that nearly all of the people in Gaza can't leave. All of the nations in the middle east, friend to Israel or friend to any faction of the Palestinians, will not accept any large number of refugees beyond those already present in their country (and are in fact unlikely to grant citizenship to the refugees already there).

Honestly, I think that there is no and never was a clear consensus amongst Israeli leadership as to the exit strategy for this campaign. I think everyone involved agreed that some form of military response was necessary/called for, and that they all had and have different ideas of how they want it to end.

Hamas is in the position of balancing further casualties and suffering amongst their members and constituency against the possible goodwill they can gain in the region by mimicking Lebanon's performance in the previous war.

To be entirely blunt, the Palestinians in Gaza (including Hamas) have been losing a lot, and stand to lose a lot more if the IDF pushes forward.
I think the likely "out" in the near term (and possibly the endgame that a majority of Israeli leadership is pursuing) is that a sufficiently large majority of Hamas operatives in Gaza will decide that it is in their best interests to reach a compromise that accedes to some but not all of Israel's demands.

Joedirt, Hamas leadership in Syria has consistently refused a ceasefire without Israel first completely withdrawing, which I think is rather unrealistic.
This Arabic daily criticizes Hamas leadership for obstructing cease-fire negotiations (see the bottom) http://aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=2&id=15352
Here's the Telegraph, saying that there is division as to a cease-fire between the Syrian leadership of Hamas and the leadership on the ground in Gaza http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/4240932/Analysis-The-choices-confronting-Hamas.html

In the long term? Personally, I had been thinking that unilateral distancing by Israel was a positive step towards peace. However, if Israel leaves open any significant access to Palestinian territories, additional weapons or weapon-precursors will enter the region and be used against Israel.
As we have seen, Palestinian militants will tunnel or otherwise attempt to circumvent even relatively thorough security procedures put in place by Israel.
This leaves Israel in the unenviable position of deciding whether to leave the Palestinians with relatively open borders, and suffer proportionately more attacks, or completely isolate Gaza (and probably the West Bank as well) in a truly thorough fashion.

This is a classic asymmetric warfare situation, which historically have been very bloody and nigh-impossible to end peacefully. I don't know of any historic examples that didn't end in the militarily superior power either pulling out completely ala Russia in Afghanistan or the U.S. in Vietnam (not a realistic or moral option here) or committing genocide as in many Medieval and Colonial conflicts (also not a realistic or moral option).

To end this before it gets any longer, simply giving the Palestinians a homeland will not bring peace to the region as long as a significant portion of the Palestinian population is willing to pursue the destruction of the state of Israel via violent means.

I do not dispute that there have been a number of bad actors affiliated with Israel. However, I believe from personal experience that the vast majority of Israelis would be happy for the Palestinians to have their own state, but also believe that many Palestinians would continue to pursue the violent destruction of Israel even if they had full sovereignty.

Here's a list of the military actions the US has been involved in since 1960.

I think he may have a point...

1959-60 -- The Caribbean.
1962 -- Thailand.
1962 -- Cuba.
1962-75 -- Laos.
1964 -- Congo (Zaire).
1959-75 -- Vietnam War.
1965 -- Invasion of Dominican Republic
1967 --Israel.
1967 -- Congo (Zaire).
1968 -- Laos & Cambodia.
1970 -- Cambodia Campaign.
1974 -- Evacuation from Cyprus.
1975 -- Evacuation from Vietnam.
1975 -- Evacuation from Cambodia.
1975 -- South Vietnam.
1975 -- Cambodia.
1976 -- Lebanon.
1976 -- Korea.
1978 -- Zaire (Congo).
1980 -- Iran.
1981 -- El Salvador.
1981 --Libya. in the Gulf of Sidra, claimed by Libya as territorial waters but considered international waters by the United States.[RL30172]
1982 -- Sinai.
1982 -- Lebanon.
1982-1983 -- Lebanon.
1983 -- Grenada.
1983-89 -- Honduras.
1983 -- Chad.
1984 -- Persian Gulf.
1986 -- Libya.
1986 -- Libya.
1986 -- Bolivia
1987-88 -- Persian Gulf.
1988 -- Honduras
1988 -- Panama.
1989 -- Libya.
1989 -- Panama.
1989 -- Colombia, Bolivia, and Peru.
1989 -- Philippines.
1989-90 -- Panama.
1990 -- Liberia.
1990 -- Saudi Arabia.
1991 -- Iraq.
1991 -- Zaire
1992 -- Sierra Leone.
1992 -- Kuwait.
1992-2003 -- Iraq. Iraqi No-Fly Zones
1993-Bosnia-Herzegovina.
1993 -- Macedonia.
1994-95 -- Haiti.
1994 -- Macedonia.
1995 -- Bosnia.
1996 -- Liberia.
1996 -- Central African Republic.
1997 -- Albania.
1997 -- Congo and Gabon.
1997 -- Sierra Leone.
1997 -- Cambodia.
1998 -- Iraq.
1998 -- Guinea-Bissau.
1998 - 1999 Kenya and Tanzania.
1998 -- Afghanistan and Sudan.
1998 -- Liberia.
1999 - 2001 East Timor.
1999 -- NATO's bombing of Serbia
2000 -- Sierra Leone.
2000 -- Yemen.
2000 -- East Timor.
2001 -- Afghanistan.
2002 -- Yemen.
2002 -- Philippines.
2002 -- Côte d'Ivoire.
2003 -- 2003 invasion of Iraq
2003 -- Liberia.
2003 -- Georgia and Djibouti
2004 -- Haïti
2004 -- Georgia, Djibouti, Kenya, Ethiopia, Yemen, and Eritrea.[7]
2006 -- Pakistan.
2006 -- Lebanon.
2007 -- Somalia.

This shows how Israels military action is failing as a deterrent to terrorist activity, from defeating Arab armies on all sides of the axis to being unable to defeat Hezboallah in Lebanon and Hamas from launching missiles from Gaza a few decades later. Continuous military action will spawn more resistance and more terrorist acts.

Ha.

You guys are ridiculous, you think the IDF bombing Gaza will eliminate Hamas? Did the Lebanon war eliminate Hezbollah? Both these entities came forth from Israel aggression and injustice in dealing with Palestine. Jewish people themselves resent the Zionist actions of the military forces knowing full well that everything that is wrought now will back fire in new groups, new individuals and new suicide bombers.

But you know maybe it will! Who knows! It definitely has worked in Afghanistan and Iraq! Not COIN or hearts and minds but simply we have to bomb Gaza to save it!

Gaza has been under blockade for 2 years, continuous apartheid has been in effect for far longer, its economical, socially and politically been coerced into fighting in any means it can, the Israelis have gone into the West Bank and Gaza countless times to seek out terrorists only to see them rise again like hydra heads because the essential underlining policy of achieving peace is flawed in design to propagate continuous hostility and conflict with the Palestinian people. You know so Israel can claim victim, build walls all over, sniper towers while pushing settlements out and claim a bit more land.

Zionism wants Israel to occupy West Bank and Gaza with no Palestinian state, so in effect Hamas wants the elimination of Israel. The two policies are mirrors of one another.

The Palestinian areas have hand every building bombed, bulldozed and blown through so many times and you guys are saying Hamas should act like uniformed forces against the IDF. It's asymmetrical warfare, the same kind the Fedayeen employed against US forces after seeing how the Taliban got bombed to shit in Tora Bora.

That's just plain military tactics, its unfortunate they use suicide bombing and rocket attacks but hey you know they don't have obligatory military service, Merkava Tanks, F-16s, Apaches or a steady supply of Military Aid from the US.

The US achieved peace with a hostile enemy by employed the methodology of COIN and hearts and minds to allow Iraqis to govern themselves, though years late cooperation and dialog in parts of Iraq have shown that soft contact with the local populace has meant that Iraqis actively gave up insurgents themselves.

Contrast this methodology with Israel hostile stance against all Palestinian people and you quickly realize that peace is not what Israel is striving for. It's a political process of land acquisition through the guise of fighting terrorism.

FULL OF WIN.

In reply to this comment by joedirt:
No.. It's more simple than that. Israel is like a spoiled rich kid living off a trust fund and acting like an ass.

If the US cut off the purse string and even gave aid to Gaza at the same time.. I guarantee it will change the dynamic. Israel has used this Iraq mess as an excuse to do whatever they want because US is too much a hypocrite to complain (same for Russia). Lebanon stuff, everyone looked the other way. Formal military occupation of Gaza.. they get a pass.

Time to cut off all economic and military aid.

I guarantee when US quits sending F16 munitions and parts they will eventually stop dropping bombs.

Alarmist much?

>> ^Irishman:
ONLY American pressure will end this genocide, as it did in Lebanon.
If Americans think that the world is angry about Bush, just you wait and see what the world will think of America if Obama doesn't condemn this and stop funding and supporting the Israeli military machine.
This is about rolling tanks into a country and slaughtering civilians, women, kids, babies. Those tanks were bought and paid for with American dollars. It's genocide and people around the world are sickened to their stomachs and are taking to the streets in protest.
This will either be America's finest hour or it will be the beginning of an almighty holocaust in the middle east.

No.. It's more simple than that. Israel is like a spoiled rich kid living off a trust fund and acting like an ass.

If the US cut off the purse string and even gave aid to Gaza at the same time.. I guarantee it will change the dynamic. Israel has used this Iraq mess as an excuse to do whatever they want because US is too much a hypocrite to complain (same for Russia). Lebanon stuff, everyone looked the other way. Formal military occupation of Gaza.. they get a pass.

Time to cut off all economic and military aid.

I guarantee when US quits sending F16 munitions and parts they will eventually stop dropping bombs.

^The recent conflict in Lebanon was ended by American pressure.