wow the Holy land sure is a fucking trash heap

For Holy Land, God sure shits all over it....>> ^westy:
but its Israels holey land promised to them by god.

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:
...... Ending the US/Isreal relationship would allow deep military cuts and extricate the US from an unpopular political stance. That's Blumenthal's real issue here. He doesn't care jack whether Palestinians & Isrealis hate each other. His real target is US foreign policy. ..........


And for that, I applaud him. Cutting wasteful spending and avoiding harmful foreign entanglements. I wish so-called conservatives and libertarians had the same goals in mind, rather than feeding an apocalyptic pipe dream in the 'holy lands'.

Pointing out how ridiculous christian religion can be. I'd much rather die for a perverted sex fantasy like a bunch of virgins. Or prove that my goD is merciful and powerful by protecting his holy land with bombs and guns. It's all so silly that I'm going to sign up for scientology; a religion that is proven by science and makes sense.

>> ^MaxWilder:
No, no, no. Religion is never the "cause". It is the gasoline that gets poured on sparks. It is the brightest beacon in an "us vs. them" mentality. "They" are heathens. "They" are infidels. "They" are goyim.

Do you argue that other fuels like nationalism are less volatile? If not, why are you attacking the gas instead of the spark? If you think humans are incapable of escaping from their violent nature, then what are you arguing about? We will always fight, and the reasons are irrelevant.


In the places around the world where there is war, how many of them are fought between peoples who share an identical religion? Sunnis hate the Shiites, Muslims hate the Jews, Protestants hate the Catholics. Nevermind that they all share the same ideological roots.

So what. People from different backgrounds fight? Wow, that's profound. The point isn't that religious backgrounds cause harm, but that humans find any difference between their tribe and another as worthy of fighting over.


How many conflicts would simply stagnate and die if the religion element was removed?

None.

The entire middle east would suddenly have no reason to fight. No holy land to contest. You talk about tribes and nations, but aren't they primarily defined by their religions as well?

No, they are not. They are defined by tribal and ethnic associations. Do you think a fanatical orthodox jew shares more with others that subscribe to his religion, or those who share his heritage, including those who do not visit temple every saturday? The "holy land" isn't disputed because of some temple, it's disputed because of its economic, political, and military importance.

No, no, no. Religion is never the "cause". It is the gasoline that gets poured on sparks. It is the brightest beacon in an "us vs. them" mentality. "They" are heathens. "They" are infidels. "They" are goyim.

In the places around the world where there is war, how many of them are fought between peoples who share an identical religion? Sunnis hate the Shiites, Muslims hate the Jews, Protestants hate the Catholics. Nevermind that they all share the same ideological roots.

How many conflicts would simply stagnate and die if the religion element was removed? The entire middle east would suddenly have no reason to fight. No holy land to contest. You talk about tribes and nations, but aren't they primarily defined by their religions as well?

And you say it's "occasionally" useful? It's what drives the ignorant to support the greedy!

I disagree with Pprt's stance not only because of what I have outlined above but primarily because his approach does not provide a solution to the problem, which is insuring the security of civilians on both sides. Essentially what his stance advocates is the blank check towards Israel's continued aggressive tactics when dealing with the Palestinian people, which have been going on for 60 years and have created more and more instability and friction between both parties, not less.

One cannot bomb and maim people into submission no matter what weapons you will use, the US tried to subdue Vietnam through massive bombing campaigns and failed, not because it was wrong in its military approach or didn't drop enough ordnance but because it did not create cooperation nor understand the local populace. The Israelis do. But their aim is not to live peacefully along side the Palestinian people as a stance of foreign policy but to create enough friction that will eventually justify a cohesive seizure of all the lands in Gaza and the West Bank. Or better yet keep infringing on Palestinians so they retaliate and they can seize more land.

This cannot be allowed to occur, as it would justify the brute force tactics in capturing and holding entire enclaves under the guise of assuring security. The argument has already been applied in America's intervention in Iraq which started as when the US sought to nullify WMDs in Iraq lest the smoking gun is a mushroom cloud. This is the same argument Russia has used in intervene in Georgia and South Ossetia. The same argument Germany used in capturing Czechoslovakia.

The Holy land is not mandated to one peoples over another.

EDIT: For clarification.

>> ^StukaFox:
For a place called The Holy Land, God sure shits all over it.



I don't blame God for this. God pulled no triggers and gave no orders.

The mess there is man-made.

For a place called The Holy Land, God sure shits all over it.

>> ^MaxWilder:
What the hell are we supporting Israel for anyway? Is that territory really so vital to American interests? I just don't get it.

It has a lot more to do with not wanting to look anti-semitic. Jews control a lot of business, money and political power, and feel that anyone who is against Israel's actions is anti-Jew.

>> ^charliem:
Just relocate the state of Israel to somewhere in montana.
Dig up the wailing wall and bring it with..problem solved.

Better idea, blow up the wailing wall, temple mount, and every other worthless holy rock in the area. Neither side would want to be there if it wasn't the holy land.


It bothers me that the Israelis have become so much like the animals that nearly destroyed their people 60 years ago, on the basis of protecting their way of life.

Did you see the kid doing the peace sign to the camera behind the reporter. Several of his brothers were killed just the other day, and he barely cares, what a wounderful situation to grow up in. Fuckin holy land my ass crust

I think its a bit more complicated than the video suggests - there is both pro-Israel and pro-palestinian bias in the U.S. media (probably more pro-israel though). The pro-israel bias may partly come from corporate and political elite interests, but I think its mostly telling Americans what they want to hear. Israel is white, relatively rich, and the victim of Arab terrorism. Kind of like us, right? Americans tend to identify with Israel, and this is strengthened by the fact that they partly share the same God with Christians, and it is a holy land for Christians.

So if you're a media organization looking to make some $, what do you do : portray Israel as a good guy or bad guy? Good guy obviously - since Americans identify with them, its like saying Americans are the good guys. Conversely, portraying Israel as the bad guys is interpreted by Americans as saying Americans are bad guys. That doesn't attract American viewers, meaning less $ for the media organizations.

Its not 100% pro-israel bias though - nothing is ever that simple. Taking the palestianians' side sometimes is also a viable strategy for making $. While Americans tend to identify with Israel because they are attacked by Arab terrorists, there is also an inherent human tendency to identify with the underdog. And its pretty obvious that palestianians, dressed in rags, are the underdogs compared to Israel with their tanks and fighter jets. The kind of David-versus goliath stuff sells well also. Doing a little of both pro-israel and pro-palestinian bias enhances the drama, which also attracts viewers.

We should keep in mind that the media is not one giant unified entity, but a bunch of different entities with their own agendas. Even within a single media entity there are different personalities and factions. What they all share though is a love for cash. Nothing is ever reported for the sake of "informing" people - it is SOLD for its entertainment value. If the palestian-israeli conflict were not entertaining to people, it would not be reported on.

>> ^HollywoodBob:
Jews and Muslims were living in Palestine just fine until antisemitism in Europe drove the Jews out, and they began mass migration back to "THE HOLY LAND" where there was only minor conflicts, street fights, riots, much like you'd see in any major city with large immigrant populations. It wasn't until after WW2 that the violence escalated to the levels we continue to see today.
The Jews wouldn't even be there if it wasn't for their religious beliefs, so claiming religion isn't the cause is just stupid. It's one of the worse places to try and sustain a populace, there's very little arable land to grow crops and livestock on, the only reason to be there is the religious significance of the area.


Religious significance was only a small part of the reason to be there. Nazi's where a big reason to rule out all of Europe. That there was a lot of available land in Palestine and an existing Jewish population made it appealing on a practical level as well, and I'd dare say if the religious homeland of the Jews happened to be Berlin, they'd have still immigrated away to Palestine through WW2.

I would never say religion isn't a big factor, but I generally believe that practicality and convenience drives religious interpretation as much or more than the other way around.

Jews and Muslims were living in Palestine just fine until antisemitism in Europe drove the Jews out, and they began mass migration back to "THE HOLY LAND" where there was only minor conflicts, street fights, riots, much like you'd see in any major city with large immigrant populations. It wasn't until after WW2 that the violence escalated to the levels we continue to see today.

The Jews wouldn't even be there if it wasn't for their religious beliefs, so claiming religion isn't the cause is just stupid. It's one of the worse places to try and sustain a populace, there's very little arable land to grow crops and livestock on, the only reason to be there is the religious significance of the area.

A more detailed write up.

Vancouver, with its snowboarders and kayak tours and great produce and Benetton ad-inspired hipster scene, can seem on the surface a little removed from “global issues”. Issues such as Israel’s bombing of Gaza these last few days. Not to mention the worldwide fury stirred by conflict in the Holy Land.

But, for a primer on Vancouver’s connection to the “big picture”, you couldn’t beat this afternoon’s (December 29) pro-Palestinian protest on West Hastings Street.

Palestinian flags were out in force. So were those of Israel, across the street at the small counter-demonstration. The rhetoric was exact, pungent, fierce, furious, and emotional. Speaker after speaker encouraged the 250-strong crowd to shout.

“Free, free Palestine,” Omar Shaban, vice president of the Canadian Arab Federation, chanted. The crowd returned, “Free, free Palestine.”

...

Asif Husain, who attended the event to represent Muslim solidarity, explained to the Straight why he supports Hamas.

“They’re in a difficult position,” he said. “There is no solution to the peace problem so far. Sixty years have gone by with no end in sight.”

Across the street, a yarmulke-bedecked Stephen Burgher agreed there is no obvious solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

“They [Palestinians] want to be ‘free to the sea’ so they want no Israel left,” he said. “I don’t think anyone over here is calling for the destruction of Palestine. For peace, you’ve got to start off with somebody who’s a partner. You’ve got to start off with someone who is willing to talk to you about coexistence. If they want to destroy you, it’s not negotiation time; it’s war time. And I think it’s necessary, it’s sad to say.”

Hanna Kawas of the Canada Palestine Association blamed the ongoing conflict on the United Nations and the U.S.

“Yesterday was the 43rd veto in support of Israel,” Kawas said. “No other country in the world has been protected as Israel. And they’re doing it basically to cover the war crimes of the Israeli government. The U.S. is complicit in these war crimes. The M16s are American, the ammunition is American, and Israelis doing it on behalf of the U.S. Without them, Israel doesn’t exist.”