So, wiki says they're convicted terroristic mass kidnapping murderers of children dressed up as a Chinese Christian group...and the disguise seems to work as often as not. To me, that says as much about mainstream Christianity as it does about this apparent cult.

I think this music video is an example of "flirty fishing".
Wiki-Christian groups also regard the group as a heretical sect that deserves the label "evil cult" due to the radical differences that separate Eastern Lightning teaching from orthodox Christian doctrine.[7] The group seems to stray from the second Christian doctrine of neighbourly love. The group also uses flirty fishing to attract potential converts.

In what way is this 'better'. I know zero about the product other than their reliance on pseudo creepy use of young women being flirty in order to draw eyeballs. Not that we're above that mind you, but this is still a shitty add.

I'd just like to say that this does go both ways though..

I know a couple of different guys with Asperger's and some other kinds of developmental issues from where i go swimming, and several times in the past i've seen a female react towards those guys like they've been weird or creepy when all they did was say "Hello" like i've seen them do a hundred times before to all types of people. I've even met women there who have spoken to me, been quite happy and talkative, what-have-you, even flirty, and then either said to me "some weird creepy guy <one of my friends> was trying to talk to me in the jacuzzi", or they might give me an "oh my god" look if one of them says hello to her. Body language, facial expression, how they talk all changes when they address them... I feel my skin crawl when i come across someone like that.

I only say this because i think that if we all try to be nicer and kinder to everyone, to be happy and interested in people, we can not only solve the issues raised by the video and in your comment, but also the ones raised in my comment, the ones not even mentioned here, like racism, facism and homophobia.

I think we need feminism, masculism, the LGBT, NAACP and god knows what else to all come together and realise that everyone is tackling the same problem which simply manifests itself in different proportions to different peoples - we're all here for one single life-time, so if we spend it being nicer and friendlier and more courteous and generous we can make life much more enjoyable all round, and no one will have to worry about cat-calling, bitchiness, homophobia or racism.

Nice!
We need more teachers like her!

I so wanted to bang my economics teacher, she was super flirty and always wore low cut cleavage showing off dresses, and always picked things off the floor stiff legged

Lulz

@Sagemind

A quibble or two aside, just about everything you said, I think, is spot on, but I don't agree with your conclusion that this isn't a useful project, or that video games aren't going to change. What you're missing is that just about every female that we're presented with across all media is from a narrow band of disempowering clichés. It's the "disempowering" part that's key. Yes, there are relatively few male archetypes in video games, but they're almost always valued for their strength, leadership, intelligence, wit, athleticism, skill, sense of humour, bravery, accomplishments, etc. -- in other words, all positive attributes, things most of us would openly encourage in our sons. Women, on the other hand, are almost always portrayed as eye candy, fuck toys, rewards to a man for saving the day, helpless victims, evil bitch nemeses (the only time a woman may commonly achieve self-determination without showing cleavage), selfless helpers of men, and so on, none of which are positive or even neutral models for our daughters.

Awareness of the types of characters we're presenting to children to identify with is important. To a lesser degree, it's also important for adults in terms of not reinforcing those stereotypes. I already consume video games with this kind of critical eye. I'd noticed how cool it was that the Portal games had a main character who's a woman, who's awesome, but who's never sexed up at all. I thought that showed some real balls (ahem) on the part of the developers. Skyrim too seems decent. It has a lot of female characters, and most of them are just whoever they are. None are sexy window dressing, a couple are flirty, and only one that I've come across is overly sexed-up, and then, only in the 1-900-voice-acting department, not her character or appearance.

That two major recent titles avoid female stereotypes is a huge thing, and I think a very positive thing. The more awareness there is of this, the better, IMO.

>> ^UsesProzac:

Huh, I was a single girl on WoW and then I was a taken girl on WoW. Never experienced any of that except for perhaps a little unwanted attention both when single and not. Most of the time gender didn't even come up. There were sometimes jokes about making sandwiches and the like over vent during raids, but that wasn't the drama that usually happened. "Don't stand in fire you fucking idiot." <- That was.
It all depends on the person. It hurts me to see you make sweeping generalities like that.
I met my partner on WoW and now we have a child. I was a troll rogue and then I was a troll priest, just in case anyone was wondering. I didn't do much in the way of alts, spent way too much time on my main, which was the priest. Good luck finding a constant spot in a raid as a melee dps.
I used to raid five days a week and arena the other two. Oh, WoW. I'm glad I have a life outside of it, now!
>> ^Porksandwich:
My experience with women who play WoW, purely from in-game. Most of them pretend to be men, you will rarely find out they are female until you hear their voice and they can't pull off the teen boy. These are usually single and have been creeped on in the past so they don't want cyber stalkers.
OR
They proudly declare they are a woman, but they also happen to be married or at least near-married. They won't inform people of this until it gets weird. Seen it happen many times in guilds where there's a woman whose overly flirty with other members and they think she likes them "in that way" only to find out that after they've helped her do a bunch of a shit..she's married and doesn't appreciate blah blah. Then the guild falls apart because people take sides.
Hell in one guild, a girl pretending to be guy was like dating one of the married men in the guild who was married to one of the women who was flirting around and getting "unwanted" attention after she got what she wanted from people.
I gave up on guilds after this one, because I would rather not be mid-raid and have drama break out over vent/ts due to this stuff. Enough other crap happens with people competing for loot/high scores/etc.



Not meant to be generalities, they are the experiences I had with the game. I think there were 4 women in the guild that I knew of. Could have been more, but I only knew the raiders or longer term members.

One was married to the guild leader, she used to ask for help to complete things and keep us waiting a good hour or two before she showed up. I didn't like her simply because she tried to treat the guild as her errand runners asking for help and having us wait so she could keep constantly busy. She got involved with a guy in the guild (not her husband) and that kicked off some events.

Next was young, and took a lot of the "sandwich" stuff you are talking about. She got involved with the married guild leader, that kicked off another bunch of stuff....probably 10-15 years difference. This is the husband of the one above....they had kids together and it basically split the guild right down the middle. The young girl involved with him had other admirers and tried to play a guy for the longest time only talking during certain raids. She was called all sorts of names once it came to light that she was dating the husband....no one really mentioned the wife doing the same thing. There was one guy she led on for a long time, they were friends and he thought it was more until he found out she was after the married guy. That started another ripple of problems...she left the guild for awhile to try to get him back as a friend, etc. As much stuff happened involving her, I think she did a lot of intentionally or was younger than she claimed. I generally liked her, but I had to wonder with as much stuff that cropped up around her as to what was going on there.

Another "involved" woman, who was either newly married or soon to be married to another guy in the guild was involved with the guy who was involved with the wife of the guild leader...the first woman I mentioned. That guy told me she was sending him pictures, and then she lost it when she found out he was involved with the other woman. Her husband/soon-to-be never suspected afaik. She was nice enough, but I was friends with her husband and I couldn't stand to hang around him anymore knowing all of this and him being in the dark.

Fourth woman was friends with a couple younger guys in the guild. Who used their vault access to steal a bunch of stuff from the vault and switch servers during a free move. She switched with them once it came to light they had stolen. Then renamed herself and came back, trying to hide her identity. She also tried to hide that she was female to the majority of the guild for a long time as well....she'd type most of her replies. Rarely spoke unless it was a tougher raid. I don't know if she had unwanted attention, or just made like she had unwanted attention from a few...because she moved with the guys she complained about on that free server move. The switch and hiding her identity was probably the worst of it involving her, and really she hadn't done anything wrong that anyone could see but she looked guilty as hell doing what she did. Then she defended those guy's actions who stole tabs and tabs of stuff from the vault before they left.

And yeah they all probably stick out because it was a lot of hub-bub involving them, and all the guys and gals involved were all culpable for their actions. But it was one guild that had more than 1 married woman in it and it failed spectacularly... Other guys in the guild would come hang out with me or solo play instead of doing guild stuff because it was toxic to be around most people in the guild with how everyone was supporting one or the other in just overall poor choices and questionable actions.

I am not saying all women in games are like this, but with this one experience with it made me want to stick to non-voice stuff so I couldn't identify the sex of anyone involved. And yeah I'd like to find a female who games.......but I'd actually like to continue enjoying games heh.

>> ^UsesProzac:

Huh, I was a single girl on WoW and then I was a taken girl on WoW. Never experienced any of that except for perhaps a little unwanted attention both when single and not. Most of the time gender didn't even come up. There were sometimes jokes about making sandwiches and the like over vent during raids, but that wasn't the drama that usually happened. "Don't stand in fire you fucking idiot." <- That was.
It all depends on the person. It hurts me to see you make sweeping generalities like that.
I met my partner on WoW and now we have a child. I was a troll rogue and then I was a troll priest, just in case anyone was wondering. I didn't do much in the way of alts, spent way too much time on my main, which was the priest. Good luck finding a constant spot in a raid as a melee dps.
I used to raid five days a week and arena the other two. Oh, WoW. I'm glad I have a life outside of it, now!
>> ^Porksandwich:
My experience with women who play WoW, purely from in-game. Most of them pretend to be men, you will rarely find out they are female until you hear their voice and they can't pull off the teen boy. These are usually single and have been creeped on in the past so they don't want cyber stalkers.
OR
They proudly declare they are a woman, but they also happen to be married or at least near-married. They won't inform people of this until it gets weird. Seen it happen many times in guilds where there's a woman whose overly flirty with other members and they think she likes them "in that way" only to find out that after they've helped her do a bunch of a shit..she's married and doesn't appreciate blah blah. Then the guild falls apart because people take sides.
Hell in one guild, a girl pretending to be guy was like dating one of the married men in the guild who was married to one of the women who was flirting around and getting "unwanted" attention after she got what she wanted from people.
I gave up on guilds after this one, because I would rather not be mid-raid and have drama break out over vent/ts due to this stuff. Enough other crap happens with people competing for loot/high scores/etc.



Can you explain the appeal of the game? I've seen clips and it looks a bit ropey. Is it all the rpg elements combining to create an addictive experience as you'd expect or something more?

Huh, I was a single girl on WoW and then I was a taken girl on WoW. Never experienced any of that except for perhaps a little unwanted attention both when single and not. Most of the time gender didn't even come up. There were sometimes jokes about making sandwiches and the like over vent during raids, but that wasn't the drama that usually happened. "Don't stand in fire you fucking idiot." <- That was.
It all depends on the person. It hurts me to see you make sweeping generalities like that.

I met my partner on WoW and now we have a child. I was a troll rogue and then I was a troll priest, just in case anyone was wondering. I didn't do much in the way of alts, spent way too much time on my main, which was the priest. Good luck finding a constant spot in a raid as a melee dps.

I used to raid five days a week and arena the other two. Oh, WoW. I'm glad I have a life outside of it, now!

>> ^Porksandwich:

My experience with women who play WoW, purely from in-game. Most of them pretend to be men, you will rarely find out they are female until you hear their voice and they can't pull off the teen boy. These are usually single and have been creeped on in the past so they don't want cyber stalkers.
OR
They proudly declare they are a woman, but they also happen to be married or at least near-married. They won't inform people of this until it gets weird. Seen it happen many times in guilds where there's a woman whose overly flirty with other members and they think she likes them "in that way" only to find out that after they've helped her do a bunch of a shit..she's married and doesn't appreciate blah blah. Then the guild falls apart because people take sides.
Hell in one guild, a girl pretending to be guy was like dating one of the married men in the guild who was married to one of the women who was flirting around and getting "unwanted" attention after she got what she wanted from people.
I gave up on guilds after this one, because I would rather not be mid-raid and have drama break out over vent/ts due to this stuff. Enough other crap happens with people competing for loot/high scores/etc.

My experience with women who play WoW, purely from in-game. Most of them pretend to be men, you will rarely find out they are female until you hear their voice and they can't pull off the teen boy. These are usually single and have been creeped on in the past so they don't want cyber stalkers.

OR

They proudly declare they are a woman, but they also happen to be married or at least near-married. They won't inform people of this until it gets weird. Seen it happen many times in guilds where there's a woman whose overly flirty with other members and they think she likes them "in that way" only to find out that after they've helped her do a bunch of a shit..she's married and doesn't appreciate blah blah. Then the guild falls apart because people take sides.

Hell in one guild, a girl pretending to be guy was like dating one of the married men in the guild who was married to one of the women who was flirting around and getting "unwanted" attention after she got what she wanted from people.

I gave up on guilds after this one, because I would rather not be mid-raid and have drama break out over vent/ts due to this stuff. Enough other crap happens with people competing for loot/high scores/etc.

@lantern53, if a girl was flirty with a boy, and he didn't like it, do you think it would be okay if he murdered her?

Yes, it is annoying if ANYONE gets in your face about ANYTHING. But something is seriously out of whack if a man's response is to MURDER someone because of their "agenda."

This is classic blame the victim stuff.

@dag - ack sorry i'm on a different computer now with adblock (don't hate me!)

when i get home i'll see if i can find it again. i mean, if i can manage to drag myself away from those flirty girls in the chatroom...

Are you saying that you don't want to meet flirty girls in chatroo.. oh, right.

Just look at actors and actresses that are on most television shows. They have people who in most locations in their viewing areas would be considered much more attractive than any of their viewing audience. So much so that when they have to portray someone as someone who was picked on due to their looks......they also tend to be maybe one notch below these actors and actresses, but still way beyond the typical audience.

It's just what people expect to see and probably want to see. If they stuck a bunch of normal "ugly" people on television, without the make up, lighting, hair, etc.....unless it's some sort of comedy to make fun of the normal state of shows...is probably not going to make it.

As for how they portray men, they make special efforts for men to make sure the short but "hero" guys are filmed in ways where they appear as tall as any other man on the show. Often by having the "hero" stand on a curb or the other guy stand in a low spot. You'll especially notice this when they have basketball players making appearances on movies and such, they would probably be lucky if the typical male reached their shoulders in height but often they are face to face.

I am sure if you looked for heroes/heroines and such you'd notice there's something specific Hollywood does with lighting, make-up and music to ingrain into our minds when the hero is on screen versus a villain on screen. Often using males with larger noses, heavier brows, scars, etc...whether natural or cosmetic to portray villains. And never forget the villain "cackling" laughter for both genders.

I think it's a little more evident in women because both men and women pay attention to the women on screen. Men mostly out of attraction, and women out of their "catty" natures. You can see catty-ness in person when you see women who work in service places like a bank, and a woman comes in dressed provocatively...you'll see the women at the bank whisper to each other and often be rather rude. You might see similar behavior in them when a man comes in, but they are pleasant even flirty toward the man, not rude. You might get rude behavior if a homeless guy comes in. Women are also really rude to any woman they feel use their good looks to get anything. IE if a woman is a dancer/stripper/porn/model/nude model/trophy wife/etc. They are looked down upon by all women but women who've done something similar in the past or were on the verge of doing something like in the past (IE they could, but didnt..not they wanted to but no one would have them). You'll see something similar to this in males when it comes to sports. Especially when it comes to how much the sports stars earn or if they screw up a play.

I am not saying it's not a real issue when they tamper with bodies via photoshop and what not, but I also think it's got a lot of jealousy mixed in as well.

Awesome! I'm used to the guild and Dr. horrible personality of Felicia, the flirty sex-pop just about gave me a nerdgasm.

She has quite the flirty little laugh she was leveling at Sarkozy, especially when he said she could be President some day.