It's not all dairy farms, but it's most. See http://www.ers.usda.gov/media/430528/err47b_1_.pdf or page 7 of http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/usda/nass/sb/sb978.pdf (note my requirement of .edu not some blowhard blogger).

Namely:
The number of dairy farms with fewer than 500 cows (your "good places") has decreased significantly and the number with more than 500 has increased majorly. And those farms with more than 500 account for 50% of the milk made.

So, yeah. There are some good farms out there. But the number is shrinking and they're unable to compete with the large factory farms.

Also, from one of the docs cited above:
In 2000, about 71.1 percent of production came from
operations of 100 or more cows, up from 55.2 percent
in 1993. Production from the smallest herds, not a
large share to begin with, fell by about half—from 4.1
to 2 percent

---

Rather than refute any of the other claims above, I'll just leave it at this. I have vegan exhaustion. My point is that these aren't just made up vegan facts from PETA, these are studies by the USDA.

Once again, they take the worst case scenarios and pretend that's how ALL milk is made, and all cattle are treated. It's a lie.
I'm getting pretty tired of that methodology, no matter who uses it.
Yep, lady, vegans are crazy....and liars, exaggerators, and attempted guilt purveyors....at least in your case.
Try honesty if you think you have a point to make....otherwise I'll see exaggeration and think 'Oh, I guess they DON'T have a real point to make, that's why they just lied to make their point'.
Yes, all these things happen, but not in all cases BY FAR. It may be a good reason to stop buying milk from factory farms that use these methods, but not a reason to stop altogether anymore than my wife's stated reason...she says that's it's just white cow pee. That's just about as honest as this video is.

Also, side note, when an organization that wants to reach people who care about animals do it by showing videos of animals being tortured, I'm turned off on the organization every time. It's why the SPCA won't ever get a dime from me. I don't reward attempted guilt trips. EDIT : This video is akin to the SPCA commercials of abused dogs ending with a statement about how this is why no one should be allowed to keep dogs.

It's not inhumane ('humane' being another oxymoron, because it's meaning, and acting like a normal human, are opposites) because 1)they have a life at all, which they would not if not given the opportunity by my family 2) they have a place to live that life, which they would not if not given the use of the land and 3) nature also creates barriers to movement, so it's not unnatural for an animal to live it's entire lifespan in one place...perhaps for cattle, but not the rest. Farm animals are not humans, and those that have an aversion to being stationary have no place on a farm. You could say that not being nomadic is 'inhumane', as our natural state is not sedentary, but few would argue it's 'cruel'.
'Animals' are not humans, so are not slaves. That idea makes you sound ridiculous. See the South Park episode for a good example.
Stopping suffering is not within our scope.
There are many reasons why stopping meat eating is not reasonable, but the one you should be the most interested in is, if humans didn't eat cattle, they might be extinct. The same goes for many animals we eat, and if we didn't eat things like pork, the ecological disaster feral pigs create would be almost as bad as what humans do.
It would be easier and cheaper to change the conditions in the slums of India and elsewhere than it would be to eradicate the meat production (edit:and consumption) of the entire planet. What do the people do now that no longer have jobs? What do you do with all the animals that no longer have a 'use' and don't own property to move onto? How do you control their numbers so they don't destroy what's left of the planet?
Technically, yes, all humans are animals. Mentally handicapped humans are not TREATED 'like animals', by which you MEAN treated poorly and without thought for their comfort and well being, which in fact is NOT how most animals are treated in our first world society, no matter how much you think so. Factory farms are a different matter.
When dolphins take control, they can treat mentally handicapped dolphins better than average humans. It's not arbitrary to treat your own species as the most important, it's an evolutionary trait almost all species likely possess.
No, I can't eat an entire vegan diet. I've tried many vegan foods, and found them ALL inedible, some made me sick.

You made blanket statements about how ALL animals are treated, and how ALL meat is produced and then defended that blanket statement. I'm glad you now admit your mistake, I hope you can see it through and stop blanket blaming ALL meat eaters.

What other people eat is farther outside your influence than how they treat their children.

Without the calorie dense food that is 'meat', we would still be nomadic gatherers, if we could exist at all. Eating meat is one of the things that gave us the energy to evolve those 'higher brains' that can choose our actions and determine what's 'rational'.
You will never see a vegan Olympic athlete. (Edit: well, maybe in Olympic curling...)

Daesh has brought about change...a change that THEY see as positive. That's not a good argument.

Yes, you are a monster for supporting such unabashed, unproductive carnivores ;-)...and I would hazard a guess that you don't feed them only free range, gmo free turkey carcasses, so you sound worse than me, the unashamed meat eater that pays the extra money for proper animal treatment....not just for them but because it's healthier meat too.

I did my part for the animals and the planet by not having children. ;-) Too bad I'm such a minority that it won't make a whit of difference.

Yeah, that's about the mentality I expect from PETA. Fucking idiots.
Not all birds are raised in factory farms.
Her weak ass motherfucking 'meal' would probably make me hurl. Tofu wrapped in homemade what? Could it be, perhaps, maybe, SATAN!? (Time to do my superior dance) Disgusting.
I'll also stick to dead birds and butthole bread.

As I understand it, the factory farm lobby has already bought laws to make it illegal to use a drone to film a factory farm, probably because of this guys film.
Look into your food sources and buy according to what you think is right. It's up to you. If you think aerosolizing shit is fine, and keeping intelligent animals in pens where they can't move 6 inches, turn around, etc. is acceptable, buy from major corporations, if not, spend the small amount of extra money to buy from local farmers and/or stores that only buy local, non-factory kept animals. It's an effort, but it's really not that hard to do, and in the long run it benefits you with better health, less guilt (if you have a conscience) and a healthier, more affluent community (with less effluence).

If people don't buy these animals/animal products, they won't keep doing it.

@Buck said: "We should close factory farms and teach people how to hunt again."

Hunting can't scale to support a larger population than a hunter-gatherer tribe. So the cost of meat would skyrocket because demand stays high, and supply can't increase.

Meat costing $75 per pound instead of $5 per pound would be a huge reduction in quality of life for everybody.

That's why humans left hunter-gatherer lifestyles in the first place.


The answer will probably end up being the vat-grown meat Silicon Valley is working on now. It will be the health equivalent of organic and free range meat, since it's not fed pesticide food, antibiotics, etc.

Buck, I am not a vegetarian and as I stated previously in the thread, I am not opposed to hunting for the purpose of food. Perhaps you didn't catch my sarcasm, but that last comment was meant as a joke. I also agree with you completely about factory farming being a miserable life for an animal. My issue is with the addiction to violence. Once a person has become accustomed to not feeling remorse for causing pain and suffering, it causes them to be less empathetic towards human beings. In school, violence is not tolerated and yet at home, parents are teaching children how to kill. Does this not worry you? As shang said, it becomes much like a videogame. Not to mention that when a person takes delight in killing animals, it is a possible warning sign of a psychopathic personality disorder. An addiction to that sort of violent behaviour is a problem in my book and I sure as hell wouldn't be sending my child over to shang's house to play with his kids.

You ARE a vegetarian and your name is meant to be irony? yes?

If you do eat meat, look at some factory farming videos....THAT is horriffic treatment of animals.

Aside from the fun of hunting it is also MUCH more environmentaly friendly. Hunters were among the first environmental conservationists, they understand that if you kill them all nothing will be there next year.

Factory farming is a horrible life for an animal.

I am such a hypocryte in my own mind because I eat meat, love the idea of hunting my own, but love animals and I'm not sure I could take a healthy one out even with my own arguments.

I hate that I was brought up "thinking" that meat is grown in white styrofoam with plastic wrap.

We should close factory farms and teach people how to hunt again.

Wait. I'm confused. I've heard for a long time now that cattle and their methane farts are big contributors to climate change. I've heard that it's the burgers to blame. Is that not true anymore or does that only go for factory farms? Honestly, it's harder to keep up with the causes of climate change than it is the solutions.

Having grown up on a ranch, I know that not all American agriculture is through factory farming but there is a lot of truth behind this.

>> ^NetRunner:

>> ^blankfist:
To extend your metaphor, the expensive steak restaurant down the street decided to shove their low quality steak down your throat and charge you for the prime filet mignon. Sure, you weren't hungry and didn't even ask for the steak, but now you have to pay for it. And they want to write down what you've eaten.

But that's not what happened. You moved to California. You got a dog. You weren't forced to do either of those things.
Metaphorically, that's walking into the steakhouse, and ordering a steak, and now you're refusing to pay the price on the menu.
Your reasoning? You think the decor they chose for the restaurant is more expensive than you think it should've been, the heating/cooling system was too expensive, their waiters have health care benefits that you think are too generous, and you think rather than buying their meat from a sustainable farm, they should buy their meat from some factory farm, and therefore you feel you shouldn't be "forced" to pay for things you didn't personally choose.
Except, you chose to come into the steakhouse, and ordered a steak from them...


No, to extend your metaphor again, you chose to walk down the street and they shoved a crappy piece of steak in your gullet and forced you to swallow. You also chose to be alive on that day, so they fed you. Then you refused to pay filet mignon prices.

See how stupid that line of reasoning sounds? That's how I feel whenever someone says "You chose to live in this country/state" and "if you don't like it, move!". It's like telling blacks to move out if they don't like the burning cross in front of their house. Essentially this is the statist equivalent of Godwin's Law, but way, way, way worse. And ends the discussion for me.

>> ^blankfist:

To extend your metaphor, the expensive steak restaurant down the street decided to shove their low quality steak down your throat and charge you for the prime filet mignon. Sure, you weren't hungry and didn't even ask for the steak, but now you have to pay for it. And they want to write down what you've eaten.


But that's not what happened. You moved to California. You got a dog. You weren't forced to do either of those things.

Metaphorically, that's walking into the steakhouse, and ordering a steak, and now you're refusing to pay the price on the menu.

Your reasoning? You think the decor they chose for the restaurant is more expensive than you think it should've been, the heating/cooling system was too expensive, their waiters have health care benefits that you think are too generous, and you think rather than buying their meat from a sustainable farm, they should buy their meat from some factory farm, and therefore you feel you shouldn't be "forced" to pay for things you didn't personally choose.

Except, you chose to come into the steakhouse, and ordered a steak from them...

I don't think the links he's making make much sense. By his argument, every time we do something morally wrong or intellectually stupid, it contradicts our belief that we are good or smart. However, I don't think most people believe they are so good, or so smart, that they will always make the correct choice. Making bad choices isn't a conflict of character. It's the reality of being imperfect beings. This doesn't parallel the cultists who invest their entire identity in the idea that they are making a particular important decision correctly and later have to face the fact they were not.

The case of factory farms also seems inappropriate. We've seen several animal slaughter/torture videos on the sift. Most omnivores in the comments don't deny that modern farm animals live miserable tortured lives, nor that our meat consumption is responsible for their situation. Instead they argue that there's no moral imperative for one species (humans) to treat another species (pigs) well. If that's how you feel about it, then you can chow down on pork chops without any cognitive dissonance whatsoever.

Remind me to promote this.

This short documentary does a good job of covering all different angles.

I am personally against the fast food industry altogether for many other reasons including factory farming, and resource waste, but this video manages to take every side of the spectrum and collaborates it well. The video tries looks at the government policy, the scientific argument (or what seemed like it. Keep in mind Morgan Spurlock's work wasn't perfectly scientific either), as well as its impact everyday neighborhoods. It's good journalistic work.

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