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how every debate i have had with a libertarian looks like

ChaosEngine says...

Completely irrelevant to the topic, but I had to laugh when I heard "if I didn't have to be in prison tonight, I'd be arrested".

On topic... unchecked capitalism is a terrible system, so is unchecked socialism.

There's nothing wrong with private enterprise and innovation, but they should be used for what they're good at, i.e. anything where the primary motivator is profit.

Capitalism by definition is terrible at anything where the primary motive is something other than profit (or at the very least, where profit shouldn't be the primary motivator) such as healthcare, prisons, etc.

Ultimately the question is what do we want out of life as a society? I'd argue that's quality of life. We should the levers of capitialism and socialism to achieve that. Right now, we're way too capitalist.

Rise of the Super Drug Tunnels: California's Losing Fight

enoch says...

@Jerykk
thank you for clarifying.

i can agree with many of your points i.e:addictions are destructive,health issues etc.

but there is zero evidence that decriminalizing (not the same as legalizing) is somehow promoting addictive drug usage OR that the user population will increase in response to decriminalization.

in fact,it is quite the opposite.
see:portugal
see:netherlands

users are not criminals.
addicts are not criminals,they are addicted.addiction is an illness not a legal status.

when you create a black market due to policy,violence will ensue,because those involved in that black market have no legal recourse.they are exempt from the legal system to settle disputes since they are engaging in "criminal" enterprise.

take away the criminality and you take away the black market and conversely...the violence.
see:prohibition.

addicts are not criminals....they are addicts.
and as squid alluded to:education is the best prevention.

thank you for your thoughtful reply.

james horner talks about the inspiration behind star trek 2

james horner talks about the inspiration behind star trek 2

Death Star Destroys Enterprise

ChaosEngine (Member Profile)

Death Star Over San Francisco

ARRESTED FOR ANTI-OBAMA POSTS

Milton Friedman puts a young Michael Moore in his place

chingalera says...

I dunno, he called the Great Depression for what it was:
"Far from the depression being a failure of the free-enterprise system, it was a tragic failure of government."-If anyone's a putz it's Moore and his whiny, self-supporting micro vs. macro schtick.

Bowling For Columbine in a nutshell: No guns, no more problems. Horseshit.

Sagemind said:

Milton Friedman is a Putz!

If this is American teacher education, we're all doomed...

shatterdrose says...

(Because I know you won't really read any links: Texas VOTED to REMOVE Capitalism from their textbooks. Yes, you read that correctly. Texas, REMOVED the word Capitalism from their textbooks because of negative connotations. Instead, you should use the term Free-Market Enterprise. So yeah, good thing those pesky liberals didn't vote to keep the word capitalism in the textbooks . . . )

You do know we have an education BECAUSE of liberalism. Much like everything else conservatives hold sacred . . .

You WILL mind dumb kids when they can't pay their taxes to support your liberal/socialist social security checks later in life, or the roads you have to drive on.

You WILL mind dumb kids when statistically speaking, less educated men are more likely to commit violent crimes and less educated women will have more children, which means more food stamps. You know, the things conservatives hate spending .5% of our annual government budget on.

So while us "liberals" have been petitioning for more teacher freedom, higher pay to attract better teachers, been against standardized tests and against for-profit schools, you conservatives can keep trying to hawk your proven to fail for-profit "capitalist" schools.

Oh, and I hate to tell you, but public schools don't teach kids to hate capitalism. Neither does the Lego Movie either. Turn off Fox News once in a while and step outside. Maybe talk to a total stranger (which means putting the gun down for a minute and not Standing Your Ground). Which coincidently, would diminish greatly with a robust liberal education. (In case you didn't get the play on words, as in teaching kids more than how to recite words and flip hamburgers. It's called A Mile Wide, An Inch Deep.

But hey, you would know all this if the Texas School Board wasn't eliminating pieces of history because they don't fit their current political agenda.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/culture/texas-school-board-approves-controversial-textbook-changes/954/

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/state/headlines/20131122-texas-education-board-approves-science-books-that-fully-cover-evolution.ece (They wanted to prevent evolution from being taught despite the piles of evidence supporting it.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html You want to talk about "bias"? Yeah, conservatives are trying really hard to rewrite history in their favor by making sure no experts ever have a say in the selection of textbook material, but people who "feel" like there is a bias. You know, because truth has a well known liberal bias.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/23/education/texas-education-board-flags-biology-textbook-over-evolution-concerns.html?_r=0

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/jun/21/how-texas-inflicts-bad-textbooks-on-us/

Yeah, I'm sorry, but the facts don't bear out in your case. Except, that our system is going downhill, but it's not because of their "liberal" education, that's for sure.

bobknight33 said:

The American Government education system is an anti education system.
Kids today get a less quality education than before.

I don't mind these dumb kids today because it means added job security. You are too dumb to know better. Someone needs to serve me lunch and sweep my floors.

You must be one of them. You were taught and firmly believe that Liberalism is good and capitalism is evil and must be destroyed. The fact of the matter is the exact opposite, Liberalism is evil.



And yes educators do want this dumbing down of students. They have been doing this for years. Finally the education is controlled by union controlled liberals. They have been in control for decades. We are not #1 or 8th, we are down in the middle of the pack down at 20. For all the money we spend per child and to be in 20th place.

http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2013/11/15/Mom-Furious-After-Son-Makes-Honor-Roll-With-C-s-and-D-s

http://worldtop20.org/

Short story about the astronaut, Ronald McNair

Yogi says...

I loved this story when I heard it the first time, animating it is even more gooder.

Also pretty cool that he talks about Star Trek and the inclusion of a black actress Nichelle Nichols. She was talked into playing the role by Dr. Martin Luther King jr. and so young black people got to see a black woman working together every week on the USS Enterprise.

Oakland CA Is So Scary Even Cops Want Nothing To Do With It

newtboy says...

I would like to answer some points here....
1.You certainly SEEM to have a problem ignoring his posts, you even responded to them.
2. These 'crimes' have been 'decriminalized' because the police are unable to enforce the laws, decriminalizing nearly everything, at least in practice if not by law.
3. The state doing nothing is what libertarians are all about, so again, in practice this does seem to be the libertarian dream, just not by law.
4. Private security HAS taken over in Oakland. Private security only protects what they're paid to protect, and nothing else usually.
5. To make Oakland 'business friendly' you first need to make if FAR less violent.
6. I can't see ANY regulations being enforced there, what are you talking about with 'over-regulated Oakland'?
7. Oakland is in America, and nearly all of it is 'private property/enterprise' that IS putting up with that. There are no gang shootings (or fewer) at Google and Disney because they are in low crime areas and can afford good private security for themselves, Oakland is a high crime area with little money for security.
8. Wow, you are really stretching there. These things do NOT happen only in public places, most of Oakland is private property and high crime.
9. Where do you get the idea that struggling businesses have the funds to pay for private security? That's simply wrong and insultingly so, as it implies that they have the ability to stop, and a reason to allow the high crime in their area.

10. to the idea that everyone in Oakland should just be armed to reduce crime, is anyone offering the free guns to them? I guarantee you, most hard working upstanding people in Oakland can't afford a gun.

Before someone claims I have no idea of what I speak, my brother lived in East Oakland for a year and I visited often, and we lived in S. Berkley for years, almost on the Oakland border...I do know the Oakland of the 80's and 90's (true, I have no personal knowledge of 2000+ Oakland, but it seems the same).

Trancecoach said:

@enoch, you must have your head in your own rectum if you think that Oakland is anywhere close to a libertarian's wet dream. You clearly have no interest in having a real discussion about any of the principles I've outlined for you, and I have little problem ignoring your posts.

If anything, Oakland is more like a statist's dream, right now. The inevitable result of regulations and criminalization of drugs. Drug dealers, pimps, bookies, and such are, in fact, "cronies" of the governmental system due to the fact that their jobs are overpaid by the illegality of these services.

If Oakland decriminalizes all of the above mentioned "services" that these guys provide, then I would grant that the city is, indeed, moving in a libertarian direction. Otherwise, only psychos and low-lifes tend to take those illegal jobs given that they are subject to the precariousness of the whims of the legislators

I don't mind them doing any of the above activities, actually. But shooting guns in the air could be a violation of someone else's property, depending on where the bullets fall or on whom/what. And obviously the state "protectors" are doing nothing about any of these things.

Like I said, let private security take over and these random shootings would be curtailed..

Make Oakland business-friendly, and you will see it become much less violent. A libertarian's "dream" does not look like an over-regulated Oakland.

Private enterprise/private property does not put up with random shooting into the air in the middle of a city. Tell me: Why are there are no gang shootings inside the Google campus? Or at Disneyland?

Why do these things tend to happen only in "public" spaces? Tell me.

That cop heckled by the gangs had zero incentive to risk his life for no gain. Businesses, on the other hand, have the incentive to keep gangs off of their property. And they will find those willing and able (for the right price) to deal with the gangsters in ways the government cronies simply can/will not..

Oakland CA Is So Scary Even Cops Want Nothing To Do With It

Trancecoach says...

@enoch, you must have your head in your own rectum if you think that Oakland is anywhere close to a libertarian's wet dream. You clearly have no interest in having a real discussion about any of the principles I've outlined for you, and I have little problem ignoring your posts.

If anything, Oakland is more like a statist's dream, right now. The inevitable result of regulations and criminalization of drugs. Drug dealers, pimps, bookies, and such are, in fact, "cronies" of the governmental system due to the fact that their jobs are overpaid by the illegality of these services.

If Oakland decriminalizes all of the above mentioned "services" that these guys provide, then I would grant that the city is, indeed, moving in a libertarian direction. Otherwise, only psychos and low-lifes tend to take those illegal jobs given that they are subject to the precariousness of the whims of the legislators

I don't mind them doing any of the above activities, actually. But shooting guns in the air could be a violation of someone else's property, depending on where the bullets fall or on whom/what. And obviously the state "protectors" are doing nothing about any of these things.

Like I said, let private security take over and these random shootings would be curtailed..

Make Oakland business-friendly, and you will see it become much less violent. A libertarian's "dream" does not look like an over-regulated Oakland.

Private enterprise/private property does not put up with random shooting into the air in the middle of a city. Tell me: Why are there are no gang shootings inside the Google campus? Or at Disneyland?

Why do these things tend to happen only in "public" spaces? Tell me.

That cop heckled by the gangs had zero incentive to risk his life for no gain. Businesses, on the other hand, have the incentive to keep gangs off of their property. And they will find those willing and able (for the right price) to deal with the gangsters in ways the government cronies simply can/will not..

This Cannot Be Described (wait for it)

SDGundamX says...

Lyrics (found the translation on this site, which is definitely worth visiting to learn more about the group) are below. I've removed the original Japanese and Romanji transcriptions so that it is easier to read:

Title:
え・い・り・あ・ん
e i ri a n
A - L - I - E - N

Words and lyrics by Maximum the Ryo-kun

Flattering government
Deceiptful presentation
Fabricated details
Danger enterprise

Praise and censure creed
Jumbled up truth
All of Japan deploring
Has nihilism come?

Self-contradiction, loop of complaints
Fall into dilemma, many cases of depression
Swarming around rights, self-important men in suits
Coveting usury, some group or other

Self-interest slave loaded with empty arguments
Money disappears as vain expenses
Embracing distrust, discord arises
Standing idly on the side, discover indignation


Ego? Freedom? LOL. / Fart stench, sinister / “Why don’t you…?” Selfish
Ego? Freedom? LOL. / Fart stench, sinister / “Why don’t you…?” Selfish

Save me!! Treatment is yet to come!! / Throw it away!! Treatment is yet to come!! / Take it off! Treatment is yet to come!!
Save me!! Treatment is yet to come!! / Throw it away!! Treatment is yet to come!! / Take it off! Treatment is yet to come!!

Twenty years old, head to the election!!
The elected official will not be allowed into office!

A judge determintes eligible voters / Discretely and delicately / Straight to the future
Believe in the Force...Jedi
Believe in the Force...Jedi
Believe in the Force! Era!!

“I get it I get it I get it! You idiots!”
“Later Later Later I’ll e-mail you later”
“Your whiny whiny whining is noisy, idiot! Stop going out of your way to be so annoying”

“Chopper, go! Futoshi!”*
*Translator’s note: Futoshi is MTH’s bassist

Brother rescue
Brother let’s go
We are brothers, WE!!
You’re my brother, YOU!!

Cunning dependence / More frozen / Next season / Revived rhythm
Cunning dependence / More frozen / Next season / Revived rhythm
Cunning dependence / More frozen / Next season / Revived rhythm
Cunning dependence / More frozen / Next season / Revived rhythm

Booing, at you! A touch of abusive language! Booing! At that! STOP! Conspiracy!
Booing, at you! A touch of abusive language! Booing! At that! Prevent! Conspiracy!

Whose ally??? Whose ally???
Only your way of life cannot be taken by anyone

Vaaaaaaaaaa!!! Vaaaaaaaa!!! GO!!!

Every day meaning scrutiny / Every day meaning scrutiny / Every day meaning scrutiny

Alien, alien, kidnap me like in a movie...
Alien, alien, I am no match for eternity


STOP! STOP WINNY UPLOAD!!
STOP! STOP WINNY UPLOAD!!
*Translator’s note: Winny was a p2p pirating software like napster that was very popular in Japan but isn’t really used anymore. In an interview, Ryo-kun (who does hate when his music is pirated, I think) was asked why he used such an old reference, he mentioned that he wanted to have a catchy “STOP” phrase where other stuff like “STOP NUKES” could be replaced.

STOP! STOP WINNY UPLOAD!!
STOP! STOP WINNY UPLOAD!!

STOP! STOP WINNY UPLOAD!!
STOP! STOP WINNY UPLOAD!! STOP WINNY!

STOP! STOP WINNY UPLOAD!!
STOP! STOP WINNY UPLOAD!!

STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!
STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!

STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!
STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!

STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!
STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!

STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!
STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!

STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!
STOP! STOP! STOP! STOP THE WINNY!

STOP STOP! STOP STOP!
STOP STOP! STOP STOP!
STOP STOP WINNY!

STOP STOP WINNY!

PV spoken ending:

D: We will not forgive use of WINNY under any circumstances! Anything but WINNY!

N: People aren’t even using WINNY these days. And there are plenty of other things we have to say “STOP!” to. So there’s no point in raising your voice like that. All the kids have left.

D: But, we can’t allow any more uploads...

N: No, I know, but look at the one kid left, about to cry.

D: (to kid) You think so too, don’t you?

N: No no no! She definitely has no idea. And now the last kid has left. You hate WINNY too, don’t you? I said, no one uses WINNY anymore.
Look at you, over there looking like Mitsue (Daisuke’s mom)...

D: What?!

N: Get that Mitsue look off your face.

N: It's one thing to talk bad about me...!

End

Cops using unexpected level of force to arrest girl

artician says...

I believe in Stateless society, but I don't believe in privatization under a capitalist system. We need to find a balance between profitability and equal compensation for provider and receiver.

There is a role for limited government, but I think it's limited to a nexus for regulation, and nothing more. Let everything else be privatized, but to a very limited extent. Honestly I really think that everything should be non-profit, but I don't actually know how to propose something that isn't leaning towards communism.

I will gladly read the essay you linked to tomorrow, but from my understanding of human nature and history, I don't think there is any way to balance a for-profit enterprise without succumbing to the evils of man.

Trancecoach said:

Competing private security or insurance would be far cheaper and much more efficient and effective than the state-imposed police force that we have now. Chief among the many reasons that it would be an improvement is the fact that it wouldn't be a monopoly (which are invariably rife with corruption and abuse). Of course, this doesn't include the millions of others who are willing and able to defend themselves on top of that.

Do you think police services are "free?" Even if you happen to be a nonproductive tax consumer, you still pay for it in other ways (especially if you're a minority or unlucky enough to be born into the wrong "class").

Here is a link to lengthy PDF essay on how a stateless society would deal with law enforcement, courts, prisons and such. Because a fundamental truth about life is that it cannot be fully predicted (a truth, I might add, that seems to elude the central planners and government bureaucrats much to our horror and detriment), we cannot know 100% as to how law enforcement would work in the absence of the current state-imposed police force. But imagination and logic help guide us into trusting a free society.

The author uses his own knowledge, logic, and imagination to posit, for example, that prisons would actually need to compete to attract prisoners, as clients. The author sees that as both making prisons more secure and preventing prisoner abuse -- a far cry from the prisoners-as-chattal, state-contracted, crony-"semi-private" prisons that we have today.

An interesting read.



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