Then we'll have to have a same reward for the capture of anyone that harms Zimmerman.

of course I'm in the Zimmerman camp, over on ATS several eyewitness reports that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, plus arrest records leaked by anon Trayvon not only a drug addict but a convicted rapist, attacked Zimmerman and cut him up pretty bad, Zimmerman was found bloody on the ground.

I've pulled a gun on a tresspasser before but never had to use it thankfully. But I support Zimmerman 100%

Course I also live in a state that has Castle Doctrine or Castle Law on the books, that gives citizens rights to use deadly force not only on house trespass but property if you are threatened.

Old people lose their minds, especially those with illness or drug addictions. Ever seen an interview with the older Marlon Brando? John McCain? Liz Taylor? Laurence Olivier? All were smart people at one time and in late life were near drooling idiots. The list is long.
Rush was a pretty sharp mind back in the day too, now he's senile and needs to get off the air and put in a home.

BTW, min wage laws hurt those who most need a wage. It is really hard to get a job as a used up drug addict. A church I used to be a part of as a Christian tried at length to get the homeless into decent jobs, but when you don't have the faculties anymore, it is hard to get a job where you are worth 7.50 an hour. And while we never ended up facing this issue, because we stopped trying because of legal reason, we tried to do this kind of subcontracting where we would hire ourselves to clean local businesses restrooms for real cheap, "hire out" some help being burned out street people, then pay them the full amount we contracted ourselves for. It was a legal nightmare because of the min wage laws preventing us from doing it. In the end, it was a job that could of been done for money, but in the end, we had to just give them money. In other words, there are many jobs that could be done by the neediest of people who don't have the mental gusto to be deserving of a full wage job. In the end, it ends up forcing a charity gap, where people that don't have skills merit a wage of whatever the min wage is to rely on charity of some sort.

In this, we make law breakers out of them. The man that offers to wash your window for a buck or whathaveyou isn't really complying with min wage laws exactly. That doesn't matter when it is just a car driver handing out money, but when a business can't hire some street folks to make regular cleaning of their outside patio area, then something has broken. Even if I could be convinced that we need a min wage, the way it is setup atm is to "help" middle/lower middle class people at the expense of the most poor. Implementation is very important, almost more important that the act itself. Any act that explicitly raises unemployment for the poorest of the poor is explicitly bad in my opinion.

As a side note, even when I was an unskilled worker...a high school student, I have always made a wage greater than min wage, even when working in fast food. Think about your own wage history, have you ever made the actual lowest wage? If not, then think about the skill set of a person that makes it, and then think of the person that exists below it. The person that exist below the min wage is the person that is most afflicted with the negative this life has to offer, and is also rejected from employment opportunities. I can not morally and rationally support min wage laws as they exist today, I have dealt to much with the pain of rebuilding a life of work and happiness that hedges against the laws. Any law that makes flat out charity the ONLY means of rebuilding your life is morally objectionable.

@TheSluiceGate
hey thanks for the response my friend.(though in bullet form..blech)
i now have a clearer picture in what you were trying to convey,and if i have your stance correct:

1.you found this video to be a glorification of drug addiction and not the religious aspects.

i disagree and your previous comments do also.i disagree that this was a glorification of any kind but rather ones mans courage to put himself out there and explain where he was and what helped him walk away still breathing.nobody goes around and broadcasts how they are an addict and have lost control of their lives.i feel this video is more of public service for those who may suffer and silence and feel they are alone,which is quite common among addicts.we can disagree on this...our perceptions just differ.as for the religious aspects may i just point to your last paragraph.notice anything?

you are free to chastise this man for his conversion to christianity and putting his recovery on giving himself over to jesus.that is not only your choice but your right but please dont say your premise was not influenced by the religious aspects when it obviously was.you said so in your own words.

2.you are an atheist and disagree with my use of "redemption" because of its religious connotations and would prefer "recovery".

i can agree that "recovery" is also an apt term to use but it does not convey in a complete sense what "redemption" conveys.
you dont "recover" from guilt and shame.
you are "redeemed" and this does not have to have anything to do with religion but it does has EVERYTHING to do with brutal honesty.to have the courage to face oneself with eyes wide open and accept the choices...AND consequences.this is a process that needs to happen to start the healing process which can only begin with forgiveness.
to forgive oneself.
this does not,by implication,necessarily mean that jesus has to come in to your life.
or buddha.
or allah.
or the great spirit.
but usually for addicts it is something outside themselves.this could be a person you greatly admire and respect which could help fascillitate a similar outcome.
hence my captain crunch reference.

i would also like to address that your disagreement with me is actually an agreement.
while i agree with your assesment on my over-simplification let me just point out:
emptiness=psychological
pain=physical
my over-simplification was to shave off all the myriad redundancies to reveal the nugget/core.

3.you are not some big meanie.

my apologies if i implied that you were in any capacity.i chose my words carefully in order to provoke you into revealing your TRUE motivation and in that context i succeeded but allow me to apologize for the manipulation.
i didnt want to respond in a presumptuous manner,even though i had suspicions to your true dislike of this video.

and here was my general thinking.
why would somebody find a video where a man admits,on VIDEO,how he almost killed himself due to his addictions and lost that which was most dear,and his consequent "recovery",be perceived as a bad thing?
and the only conclusion i could come up with was the "jesus" factor as being the bitter pill.
just look at the views to votes ratio.you are not exactly alone my friend.

would you feel the same way if this man had started recovery from meeting a distinguished scientist? or philosopher?
who helped him see the world differently and hence gave him the courage to face what he needed to face?
i presume (falsely maybe) that you and many on this site would have cheered this man for his courage but since this man gave his life to jesus and credits jesus for his recovery he is relegated to the silly bin.
my response is:whatever works for ya.do it and do it NOW.if that means jesus or the FSM then by all means...have at it.

i AM an ex-junkie.
and i dont mean i had a small "problem" but i was the rip-snorting we-are-going-for-a-fucking-ride kinda junkie.
the wake up across state lines on the beach-how the fuck did i get here kinda junkie.
i assist those who wish to be clean.
i let them stay in my spare room so they can go through detox (worst experience a person can endure imo).
i do not judge.
i do not preach.
i make it ok.
because i am fluent in the language of the broken and forsaken because i was once just like them.
this is mainly where my "nobody can do it alone" comment was inspired.because a junkie cannot get clean by him/herself.their self loathing is too dominant and the desire to numb themselves from their own past too strong an impulse to ignore.

so when you see a junkie you may (rightly so) see a person who has made some bad choices.maybe you hope they will seek treatment and get better but they need to accept responsibility.
i agree with that, but you judge them while not understanding THEY have already judged themselves and their judgment is so much harsher than you could ever imagine.they believe themselves to be less than nothing and execute that verdict with a raging self-hatred everytime they use.which then becomes a never-ending cycle of guilt and shame.

i attempt to break that cycle for those who seek to become healthy and whole again.sometimes i succeed but more often i fail.
so if jesus is a part of somebody finding the strength and courage to face their demons then who are we to judge?

i do hope you take this comment in the spirit it was written.
with honesty and respect.i truly appreciate your contributions to this subject (which is obviously close to home for me) and indulging my curiosity with how an atheist views subjects such as these.
it would be interesting to see how many votes a video similar to this would get if there was no reference to jesus or god.

thank you TSG.

Future Breaking News: Iran hacked US Auto-automobiles... ?

I think the 2-5 person transport vehicle is bullshit and must be developed into an alternative transport system with focus on sustainability. Maybe this is the step in the right direction, maybe it's just a way to sell cars to everybody, including drunk drivers, drug addicts, psychopaths and children.

I think you might be falsely thinking the the word tragic autimaticaly means Tragic for everyone Ie a human tragedy and that is not the case.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tragic

If someone dies against there will regardless of how stupid and risky ( playing russen rulet for example) it would still be fair to use the word "tragic" to describe the person dying.

From your position if you believe its simply a culling of the stupid and Darwinism , obviously its not tragic from your perspective but its tragic from the person that died perspective ( assuming they didn't want to die)







>> ^packo:

>> ^luxury_pie:
Well given he would be stupid enough to not pack a parachute, I guess concerning this particular situation I agree with packo.
But he did pack on, and it failed him. I wonder if packo was aware of that.

yes i was aware he jumped with a pack, and that he opened it too late or that it malfunctioned... that was never specified
and at no point did I say my way of feeling about the situation EVERYONE must feel
in regards to things that adrenaline junkies do, this included... the fact that there was a choice made to do it in the first place takes TRAGEDY out of the situation for me... why? because I'm assuming he knew the risks and was taking them on... let alone how that affects any family/friends this person may have impacted with this resulting jump... and keep in mind, his decision to do a potentially life threatening thing does impact those groups of people, even if it is his own choice...
myself as a bystander who has no direct connection to this person, feel more sorry for his family and friends than I do for him... they were put in a situation (whether he asked their permission/blessing/etc) where really they had no control of the situation, and had to watch a person they care about get severely injured... that's why i consider it more likely than not, that the person jumping is probably of a self-centered mindset
there's a reason they call it adrenaline JUNKIE... and not adrenaline ENTHUSIAST
that's why my sympathy is low for this person, he made his choice, he gets to live with the consequence (and so do the people this choice impacted)... i wouldn't send money to a collection in his benefit or even a get well card... i shake my head and move along
it all comes down to choice, and imho it was a foolish (no matter the precautions taken) and self-centered choice...
and him getting back up on the horse to do something like this again wouldn't be a display of human courage and perseverance, but something more akin to a drug addict scoring their next hit
10,000s of people starve to death every day, 150,000 or so die everyday; alot from TREATABLE disease/infection, lots of children are abused, or forced to grow up too soon, or aren't given a chance at a productive future... sorry if I don't lump this guy who chose to wingsuit jump off a bridge, in with those truly tragic situation

>> ^luxury_pie:

Well given he would be stupid enough to not pack a parachute, I guess concerning this particular situation I agree with packo.
But he did pack on, and it failed him. I wonder if packo was aware of that.


yes i was aware he jumped with a pack, and that he opened it too late or that it malfunctioned... that was never specified

and at no point did I say my way of feeling about the situation EVERYONE must feel

in regards to things that adrenaline junkies do, this included... the fact that there was a choice made to do it in the first place takes TRAGEDY out of the situation for me... why? because I'm assuming he knew the risks and was taking them on... let alone how that affects any family/friends this person may have impacted with this resulting jump... and keep in mind, his decision to do a potentially life threatening thing does impact those groups of people, even if it is his own choice...

myself as a bystander who has no direct connection to this person, feel more sorry for his family and friends than I do for him... they were put in a situation (whether he asked their permission/blessing/etc) where really they had no control of the situation, and had to watch a person they care about get severely injured... that's why i consider it more likely than not, that the person jumping is probably of a self-centered mindset

there's a reason they call it adrenaline JUNKIE... and not adrenaline ENTHUSIAST

that's why my sympathy is low for this person, he made his choice, he gets to live with the consequence (and so do the people this choice impacted)... i wouldn't send money to a collection in his benefit or even a get well card... i shake my head and move along

it all comes down to choice, and imho it was a foolish (no matter the precautions taken) and self-centered choice...

and him getting back up on the horse to do something like this again wouldn't be a display of human courage and perseverance, but something more akin to a drug addict scoring their next hit

10,000s of people starve to death every day, 150,000 or so die everyday; alot from TREATABLE disease/infection, lots of children are abused, or forced to grow up too soon, or aren't given a chance at a productive future... sorry if I don't lump this guy who chose to wingsuit jump off a bridge, in with those truly tragic situation

I wouldn't completely dump on CNN only because I saw Anderson Cooper interview a T-Party woman and really got on her ass when she tried to suggest it was just a bunch of drug addicts and lazy people with no real agenda gathering and breaking the law.

Course Anderson Cooper is one of the 'cool' 24 hour news person in the world. He's amongst the last of a dying breed of reporters who actually challenge the crap that spills out of their guests mouths.

I've always thought psychedelics would be good for treating drug addiction. But, try telling that to people who are addicted to hard stuff like China White and you know what their sentiment'll be. A person really must be up for the battle since they're definitely setting themselves up for an emotional ride of a lifetime. I'd certainly not want to be a trip sitter for a serious street crackhead haha.

This reminds me that I've gotta go get me some San Pedro while it's warm out! Have fun out there Trancecoach.

>> ^Phreezdryd:

The issue should be why are children having their own children before even finishing high school? How does a child working toward being a responsible adult have time to also be a full time parent? They have to lean heavily on relatives, friends, and probably government programs to get by. Children maybe end up getting treated like baggage instead of a loved, planned for part of life. Is any of this good or fair?
Rinse and repeat for generations. I think society as a whole pays for this, and not just with tax dollars. Kids need real education about real life, instead of the nonsense from the squeamish and the holier than thou.


the assumption that any two parents can raise a family completely alone without having to rely heavily on relatives, friends, and sometimes even government programs to get by is ridiculous. human beings are HERD animals. it takes an entire HERD to raise a family. furthermore, children from any type of home are equally at risk to be born to parents who often, sometimes, occasionally or all the time treat them like baggage instead of a loved and planned for part of life. dysfunction isn't specifically an attribute assigned to the young, the single, the female, or the working class.

AND sex fucking happens. human bodies reach sexual maturity in the teen years because humans didn't evolve to live past the age of 35 without serious technology, nutritional, medical and dental intervention. lackadaisical teenage fuck-off-ery is a relatively new luxury. biology didn't stop dead in its tracks to accommodate.

i was a too young single mother, it wasn't at all easy. it was hard as fuck sometimes and i worked/continue to work my ass off. there were times when there was no joy left in my house. i used to think that was only because i was a single parent. as my friends have now grown into married adults, i see that there are plenty of 2 parent families with no joy left in their houses. anyone can have a really hard life. i don't recommend teenage parenthood to anyone,ever. however, it's not the end of the world. the end of your life. or some horrific societal tragedy. the thing that i have learned is not to vilify stupid kid accidents, but rather to be completely unpuritanical about the idea that one day, my kids will be teenagers with sex drives and educate and prepare them properly, with all the tools in the belts to make reasonable decisions. hopefully, it'll stick. if it doesn't, it's still not the most horrible thing ever and they will supported rather than treated like stupid irresponsible pieces of trash. which is the kind of shit i;ve had to put up with for the last 9 years.

>> ^Phreezdryd:

And as for the absent fathers they love to hate on, are they just completely evil for also being kids, and running away when the fun sex turns into the lifelong responsibility? Who knows, maybe the girl even lied about birth control to try and force him to stick around. Kids do stupid things.


are you trolling? or do you watch too many daytime talk shows??? sure, sometimes girls do asshole things like lie about being on the pill. it's not at all the norm. don't try and make it sound like a reasonable assumption.
and don't make excuses for absent fathers. abandoning your family is sort of evil. i know there are exceptions. in my baby daddy case, he was too mentally ill to be around us anymore. he made our lives better when he went away and never came back. however, most people are not profoundly mentally ill. and even he gave being a dad a decent shot. and he did and does love his kids. his absence is a tragedy in his life more than it is in ours. i saw him recently after 6 years and its very much a wound that eats him alive daily. he is sick and bony and gray. the only solace for him is to know that he went away so he couldn't continue to damage us all and that we are all happy and healthy and functional. that's the saddest thing in the world.

i find it hard to believe that a decent moral human being can completely abandon their kids with no assurance of their well-being (this statement excludes parents who leave their kids with adoptive families with the hope and trust that they will be cared for properly) and remain whole. it's a narcissistic thing to do, it is a sociopathic thing to do. in the absence of drug addiction or some obscenely destructive mental illness, there is no excuse for it. you don't have to get married, or live together, in many cases it's better if you don't. but there is no reason for a relatively sane, relatively function person to walk away entirely from another human they created. pregnancy is risk everyone who engages in vaginal intercourse takes every single day. most of them are completely aware of it. you don't get to make it sound reasonable for a person, no matter their age, to completely run away forever and not look back. you don't get to make it sound reasonable that society place 100% of the responsibility for raising functional adults entirely on women.

I agree with the professor. Voluntarism as a substitute for the welfare state is utopian.

How would it reach everyone, even in the most remote backwater towns, and at that, equally? Who decides who gets what? Do christian and/or white poor get more than others? Who decides what constitutes a poor person? Will drug addicts and drunks get the same help as everyone else? How long until the voluntary philantropists don't want to donate anymore when they see how others who give nothing are getting more prosperous while they themselves 'lose money'?



I've read enough of Gaskell, Disraeli and Dickens to imagine possible outcomes.

Upvote for the professor.

People's perceptions are funny. Many of them who've heard of Frank Zappa assume (quite wrongly) that he was this huge drug addict hippie. Fact is, Frank Zappa never did drugs and hated the hippie subculture.

But in the end, facts require work to obtain and perceptions are free.

I honestly don't care about her death,that is what you get when you are drug addict and crack wh**e. She chose to die. You can make an effort in your life and stop abusing drugs but she wanted to keep going with this junk and that is how she ended up.

>> ^criticalthud:

like every fucking drug, some are good for you, some aren't, but since they all react somewhat different with each individual, it's up to you to figure out which is good for you and which ain't.
sugar is not a good drug addiction.


Especially if you try snorting it...

like every fucking drug, some are good for you, some aren't, but since they all react somewhat different with each individual, it's up to you to figure out which is good for you and which ain't.

sugar is not a good drug addiction.