The idea that Jesus is fully human and fully God simultaneously is patently ridiculous on its face. That is simply doublespeak so that theists can try to win arguments such as this one. If he was fully God (even if he was also somehow fully human), he would not have feared the pain and death he knew was coming. I think that's all the proof anybody needs that Jesus was not divine. This is one of many cases where theists will twist words into unintelligible pretzels and come out of the argument claiming "faith" that their statements are true somehow trumps the logic that crushes their beliefs.

But let's set that aside for a second. Let's accept that Jesus feared pain and death, and that his crucifixion was as horrible to him as it would be to anyone else.

How exactly does that lift any burden off my shoulders? How can that absolve me of any portion of my guilt for sins against my fellow man? Of course, it's not supposed to be about my sins against my fellow man, but rather my sins against God.

(And the entire concept of a "sacrifice" is simply a throwback to a society that believed they had to "appease the gods". They pretended to assert some form of control over weather and natural disasters, which of course was pointless. That, of course, developed in the human world where a tribe would have to send a portion of their crop to the nearby dictator or risk being trampled by his army. And since their concept of God was simply an even more powerful dictator, they did the only thing they could think of that might make him happy: hurting themselves to show supplication.)

As I understand it, Christians claim that Jesus was the sacrifice that freed us from the burden of original sin. Even if that statement made sense, I refuse to accept responsibility for a mistake that was supposedly made by an ancestor thousands of years ago. I therefor reject any sacrifices (that I did not ask for) made on my behalf towards a debt that I do not recognize.

The bible is basically saying that God made man greedy, dangled money in front of his face (the Fruit of Knowledge), punished man for taking the money (expulsion from Eden), demanded regular payments (blood sacrifices before Jesus), sent his son to pay the debt with his own money (because Jesus is God), and commands us to be eternally grateful to Jesus for his sacrifice (which was not a sacrifice).

So even if every bit of Christian mythology is 100% correct, that would simply make us the unwilling slaves of a spiteful two-faced God, faced with the threat of eternal suffering, forced to put a smile on our face and sing praising songs, pretending to be grateful for the burdens and fear heaped upon us by our "loving" master.

I think it is pretty clear why I can't believe a word of it.


Theist: "Well Because of A we know that B happens."

Nontheist: "Sorry, try proving A before you derive anything from it."

By the way, thanks for letting me vent a bit. It's nice to get these swirling thoughts out of my head every once in a while. I hope they make sense to others as much as they do to me.

Peace.


In reply to this comment by smooman:
You have a different view of Jesus than I. The doctrine I hold to is that he was fully human and fully God. Not half-n-half or whatever. In that way, he experiences everything we do, from pain, to happiness, to mourning, to delight, to frustration (money changers in the temple for example). And because he was fully man, his suffering is twofold: the physical, the crucifixion, which most are familiar with even non theists, but then another, emotional, mental, and spiritual anguish and angst in the garden the eve of the crucifixion.

If dying on the cross is not that big of a deal, as you say, then why would Jesus cry out to God the Father "take this cup from me"? This is a man who knew what lay in store for him, and feared it, dreaded it, wanted a way out of it. It's important too that after he asks God to relieve him of this duty, that he wishes, "but Your will, not mine".

You say according to Christianity that Jesus wasn't a man but rather God in the form of man. This is where I would disagree. The mainstream doctrine on the divinity of Jesus in the Christian church is that he was fully man and fully God.

There are theologies that we're discussing that go much deeper than what we've covered so far. I think that this may become a long running discussion. But I do enjoy it and look forward to more. Sala'am =)

also what I meant by "theistic points of view" is this: (this will be cheesy so bare with me)

Theist: "Well Because of A we know that B happens"

Nontheist: "well I dont believe in A so B would never happen because A doesnt exist"


I know that's really silly and such a trivial analogy but it's the best I could come up with =(


In reply to this comment by MaxWilder:
For any wrongdoings or mistakes I make in life, I expect to be punished for them during my lifetime. That may be in many different forms, such as the loss of a friend, the loss of respect from my community, the anger of someone seeking retribution, perhaps even a fine or punishment from the government that is set up by people who want to discourage such behavior. And I fully accept that because I am the only one who could have prevented the mistake or error in judgment.

If you made such an error in judgment, but the police caught somebody else by mistake, would you let that person take the punishment for you? Of course not, that would be completely immoral. Similarly, it would be completely immoral for anybody to be sent to hell for your sins. So exactly how is it acceptable for Jesus to suffer and die for your sins? Well, he was actually God, so he didn't really suffer, he didn't really die, he didn't go to hell. So he didn't really do anything for you anyway. Honestly, what sacrifice did Jesus make? If he was just a man, that would be the ultimate sacrifice. But according to Christianity, he wasn't just a man, so it wasn't really a sacrifice at all. Nothing was lost. Jesus came down, told people what he wanted to tell them, then went back to heaven. Ok, the method he used to go back to heaven was pretty brutal, but it wouldn't be that big a deal to someone who was actually an aspect of God himself.

So... Jesus didn't really sacrifice anything.

And... even if he did, I don't want anybody to be punished for something I did.

And... if God denies us entrance to heaven for making mistakes, the kind of mistakes that every human makes (because God made us that way), what kind of a bastard does that make God?

"Again its all from a theistic point of view so for someone who doesnt share that point of view, all of this will be pretty much hogwash."

Sorry, but a person's point of view doesn't change a line of logical reasoning. Either these points can be refuted or they stand. Please remember that I was raised Christian and started formulating these thoughts well before I completely rejected the church.



>> ^smooman:
Sorry it took so long to get back to ya. This is more along the lines of a theological debate but here goes. I personally, in my theological understanding, do not believe that simply being "good" will save you and the reason is this: Can you think of anyone, anyone you know, anyone you read about, anyone you ever met, anyone at all that has lived a blameless life? A life completely devoid of wrongdoing or a wicked thought or a anger fueled episode from the time of accountability to the time of separation (death)? Everyone does something "not good" in their life. They may regret it, it may be out of character, or they might not have meant it, but it happens. After all, we are only human.
Paul tells us that "all have sinned , and fallen short of the glory of God". I think thePinky had mentioned earlier that these sins or "mean things" or "slip ups" or whatEVER you want to call them cause us to be imperfect of our original creation and separate us from our Creator. Enter Jesus: the sacrificial lamb.
Again its all from a theistic point of view so for someone who doesnt share that point of view, all of this will be pretty much hogwash. But there you have it.
I DO appreciate your openmindedness (I totally just made that word up hehe) and your sincere respect for other belief systems unlike MOST sifters =)
In reply to this comment by MaxWilder:
It's tough to switch gears from arguments against fundamentalists to questions for moderates. But the last couple of days reminded me of my most important question for modern moderate Christians:
If there is a good person, who lives a good life, doesn't break any laws, contributes to his community and passes down a strong code of ethics to his children, would that person go to hell without Jesus?
As far as I can tell, that's what it says in the Bible, and that's one of the very first things that led me to reject Christianity. Most modern, compassionate Christians say you can still go to heaven just by being a good person. But that leads directly to the next question:
What is the point of Christianity if you don't really need to be a Christian to go to heaven?
I think you'll find that if you answer that question, none of your reasons will have anything to do with Jesus being an actual "Savior" or "Son of God".

You have a different view of Jesus than I. The doctrine I hold to is that he was fully human and fully God. Not half-n-half or whatever. In that way, he experiences everything we do, from pain, to happiness, to mourning, to delight, to frustration (money changers in the temple for example). And because he was fully man, his suffering is twofold: the physical, the crucifixion, which most are familiar with even non theists, but then another, emotional, mental, and spiritual anguish and angst in the garden the eve of the crucifixion.

If dying on the cross is not that big of a deal, as you say, then why would Jesus cry out to God the Father "take this cup from me"? This is a man who knew what lay in store for him, and feared it, dreaded it, wanted a way out of it. It's important too that after he asks God to relieve him of this duty, that he wishes, "but Your will, not mine".

You say according to Christianity that Jesus wasn't a man but rather God in the form of man. This is where I would disagree. The mainstream doctrine on the divinity of Jesus in the Christian church is that he was fully man and fully God.

There are theologies that we're discussing that go much deeper than what we've covered so far. I think that this may become a long running discussion. But I do enjoy it and look forward to more. Sala'am =)

In reply to this comment by MaxWilder:
For any wrongdoings or mistakes I make in life, I expect to be punished for them during my lifetime. That may be in many different forms, such as the loss of a friend, the loss of respect from my community, the anger of someone seeking retribution, perhaps even a fine or punishment from the government that is set up by people who want to discourage such behavior. And I fully accept that because I am the only one who could have prevented the mistake or error in judgment.

If you made such an error in judgment, but the police caught somebody else by mistake, would you let that person take the punishment for you? Of course not, that would be completely immoral. Similarly, it would be completely immoral for anybody to be sent to hell for your sins. So exactly how is it acceptable for Jesus to suffer and die for your sins? Well, he was actually God, so he didn't really suffer, he didn't really die, he didn't go to hell. So he didn't really do anything for you anyway. Honestly, what sacrifice did Jesus make? If he was just a man, that would be the ultimate sacrifice. But according to Christianity, he wasn't just a man, so it wasn't really a sacrifice at all. Nothing was lost. Jesus came down, told people what he wanted to tell them, then went back to heaven. Ok, the method he used to go back to heaven was pretty brutal, but it wouldn't be that big a deal to someone who was actually an aspect of God himself.

So... Jesus didn't really sacrifice anything.

And... even if he did, I don't want anybody to be punished for something I did.

And... if God denies us entrance to heaven for making mistakes, the kind of mistakes that every human makes (because God made us that way), what kind of a bastard does that make God?

"Again its all from a theistic point of view so for someone who doesnt share that point of view, all of this will be pretty much hogwash."

Sorry, but a person's point of view doesn't change a line of logical reasoning. Either these points can be refuted or they stand. Please remember that I was raised Christian and started formulating these thoughts well before I completely rejected the church.



>> ^smooman:
Sorry it took so long to get back to ya. This is more along the lines of a theological debate but here goes. I personally, in my theological understanding, do not believe that simply being "good" will save you and the reason is this: Can you think of anyone, anyone you know, anyone you read about, anyone you ever met, anyone at all that has lived a blameless life? A life completely devoid of wrongdoing or a wicked thought or a anger fueled episode from the time of accountability to the time of separation (death)? Everyone does something "not good" in their life. They may regret it, it may be out of character, or they might not have meant it, but it happens. After all, we are only human.
Paul tells us that "all have sinned , and fallen short of the glory of God". I think thePinky had mentioned earlier that these sins or "mean things" or "slip ups" or whatEVER you want to call them cause us to be imperfect of our original creation and separate us from our Creator. Enter Jesus: the sacrificial lamb.
Again its all from a theistic point of view so for someone who doesnt share that point of view, all of this will be pretty much hogwash. But there you have it.
I DO appreciate your openmindedness (I totally just made that word up hehe) and your sincere respect for other belief systems unlike MOST sifters =)
In reply to this comment by MaxWilder:
It's tough to switch gears from arguments against fundamentalists to questions for moderates. But the last couple of days reminded me of my most important question for modern moderate Christians:
If there is a good person, who lives a good life, doesn't break any laws, contributes to his community and passes down a strong code of ethics to his children, would that person go to hell without Jesus?
As far as I can tell, that's what it says in the Bible, and that's one of the very first things that led me to reject Christianity. Most modern, compassionate Christians say you can still go to heaven just by being a good person. But that leads directly to the next question:
What is the point of Christianity if you don't really need to be a Christian to go to heaven?
I think you'll find that if you answer that question, none of your reasons will have anything to do with Jesus being an actual "Savior" or "Son of God".

The Matrix sequels and the Star Wars prequels were products of a similar situation -- very creative people (Wachowski brothers, Lucas) who were too successful for their own good and didn't have someone to exercise editorial control and tell them no. Those types of people need a filter.

The Matrix sequels and Star Wars prequels were 80% to 90% good movies. If only someone had stepped in and said "no Midichlorians, no Jar-Jar, less Lincoln Park worthy teenage angst, no "soft, not like sand", and no slaughtering a legion of rainbow Skittles jedis for no reason.

But the opening of attack of the clones and Darth Maul's duels in the phantom menace were fantastic. The chase scene in reloaded was great. The machine swarm breaking down the defenses of Zion was captivating.

God he was so inspired by his bitter angst he went to Moonbase Alpha!?

(little advice Mark... Koenig already has dibs on Dr. Russell and stay the hell off those Eagle transporters!)

Funny how divided people are on the music. I liked it. I thought it brought a great energy and fun to the video. So much machinima is just dark and angst and emo.

>> ^UsesProzac:
cute as a rabid squirrel eating your nuts.


I'm sensing much angst in your violent words. Not to fear, as I recently came across a revolutionary book. Please let me know if there's anything I can do to help.

Away, planeteers!

http://videosift.com/member/CaptainPlanet420

One of my top favorites of all time!

And yes, to him, friend is a four letter word. (Spelled L-O-V-E.) Unfortunately, the intended recipient of the song apparently doesn't agree... hence the angst.

They're so gangster. Really makes me wonder how and why they celebrate that lifestyle. So much angst and homosexual tension.

Are these McCainiacs incapable of directly answering any question coming from the opposing side? All I ever see them do is try to form their response into something unrelated.

The interviewer asks why Palin was chosen despite her lack of experience, and the McCainiac answers that she has the good fortune to be on the same ticket as McCain. FAIL. Then he tries to direct the conversation over to Obama. FAIL. Then he feigns angst and whines that the interviewer is belittling Palin. Boohoo! FAIL.

These people are so feeble and inept that it's unbelievable. So why are half you fuckers so eager to put them in power after 8 years of that bullshit? YOU FAIL! GOOD DAY SIR!

"I think the bottom line, is the joy, that it's bringing..."

WHAT !?

Its a fucking CHEETO!

It'd be bringing joy if you ate the damn thing, but alas, its just sitting there, bringing angst and pain to all who are forbidden from sampling the tasty tasty morsel.

You evil woman.

Money ruins juvenile angst that made the first 3 films so good.

He got rich and all of a sudden his emo depressed side turned to apathetic soulless bourgeois.

Wie eine Blume am Winterbeginn
Und so wie ein Feuer im eisigen Wind
Wie eine Puppe, die keiner mehr mag
Fühl ich mich an manchem Tag

Dann seh ich die Wolken, die über uns sind
Und höre die Schreie der Vögel im Wind
Ich singe aus Angst vor dem Dunkeln mein Lied
Und hoffe, dass nichts geschieht

Ein bisschen Frieden, ein bisschen Sonne
Für diese Erde, auf der wir wohnen
Ein bisschen Frieden, ein bisschen Freude
Ein bisschen Wärme, das wünsch ich mir

Ein bisschen Frieden, ein bisschen Träumen
Und dass die Menschen nicht so oft weinen
Ein bisschen Frieden, ein bisschen Liebe
Dass ich die Hoffnung nie mehr verlier

Ich weiss, meine Lieder, die ändern nicht viel
Ich bin nur ein Mädchen, das sagt, was es fühlt
Allein bin ich hilflos, ein Vogel im Wind
Der spürt, dass der Sturm beginnt

Ein bisschen Frieden, ein bisschen Sonne
Für diese Erde, auf der wir wohnen
Ein bisschen Frieden, ein bisschen Freude
Ein bisschen Wärme, das wünsch ich mir

Ein bisschen Frieden, ein bisschen Träumen
Und dass die Menschen nicht so oft weinen
Ein bisschen Frieden, ein bisschen Liebe
Dass ich die Hoffnung nie mehr verlier

Sing mit mir ein kleines Lied
(Ein bisschen Frieden, ein bisschen Sonne)
(Für diese Erde, auf der wir wohnen)
Dass die Welt in Frieden lebt
(Ein bisschen Frieden, ein bisschen Freude)
(Ein bisschen Wärme, das wünsch ich mir)

Singt mit mir ein kleines Lied
(Ein bisschen Frieden, ein bisschen Träumen)
(Und dass die Menschen nicht so oft weinen)
Dass die Welt in Frieden lebt
(Ein bisschen Frieden, ein bisschen Liebe)
(Dass ich die Hoffnung nie mehr verlier)


English version:
Just like a flower at the beginning of winter
And just like a fire in an icy wind
Just like a doll that nobody wants anymore
That's how I feel on some days

Then I see the clouds above
And I hear the cries of the birds in the wind
I sing my song in fear of the dark
And hope that nothing happens

A bit of peace, a bit of sunshine
For this earth on which we're living
A bit of peace, a bit of joy
A bit of warmth, that's what I wish for

A bit of peace, a bit of dreams
And that people won't cry as often
A bit of peace, a bit of love
May I never lose hope again

I know my songs won't help very much
I'm just a girl who says what she feels
Alone I'm helpless, a bird in the wind
That feels that the storm begins

A bit of peace, a bit of sunshine
For this earth on which we're living
A bit of peace, a bit of joy
A bit of warmth, that's what I wish for

A bit of peace, a bit of dreams
And that people won't cry as often
A bit of peace, a bit of love
May I never lose hope again

Sing with me a little song
(A bit of peace, a bit of sunshine)
(For this earth on which we're living)
May the world live in peace
(A bit of peace, a bit of joy)
(A bit of warmth, that's what I wish for)

Sing with me a little song
(A bit of peace, a bit of dreams)
(And that people won't cry as often)
May the world live in peace
(A bit of peace, a bit of love)
(May I never lose hope again)

>> ^Creperum:
>> ^lavoll:
so with the big hollywood budgets that games have now, comes the hollywood executive angst of producing something new..?

How much do you really want a new IP? Two words that should remove all obscene thoughts of such nature: Assassin's Creed!
If you still want a new brand after that, good luck on ya son, but I'll settle with Splinter Cell 16 before I touch that crap again.


Ugh, stop typing. Please. The idea that if one original title fails, it means original ideas should be avoided, is f'ing retarded.

I don't know, I think it's surprising how the feelings are very much the same, despite the differience of age and perspective. It was always a song about regret, loss, and feeling tired of life (and yourself). Often when young men express that we dismiss it as being angst ridden and immature. As if their misery was an indulgence. And it seems to be for a few, but there are others that are really just struggling to hold on to life.

>> ^lavoll:
so with the big hollywood budgets that games have now, comes the hollywood executive angst of producing something new..?


How much do you really want a new IP? Two words that should remove all obscene thoughts of such nature: Assassin's Creed!

If you still want a new brand after that, good luck on ya son, but I'll settle with Splinter Cell 16 before I touch that crap again.