"Their plane was shot down and the two men were captured by hostile forces. Denton and Tschudy were both held as prisoners of war for almost eight years, four of which were spent in solitary confinement...

"Denton was part of a group of about 11 prisoners known as the "Alcatraz Gang"... which was separated from other captives and placed in solitary confinement for their leadership in resisting their captors. "Alcatraz" was a special facility in a courtyard behind the North Vietnamese Ministry of National Defense, located about one mile away from Hoa Lo Prison.

"In Alcatraz, each of the 11 men were kept in solitary confinement, where cells measured 3 feet by 9 feet and had a light bulb kept on around the clock; the prisoners were locked each night in irons by a guard."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Denton

@bmacs27

WikiLeaks' response can be found here, but if we take into account this excerpt from "WikiLeaks, Public Enemy No. 1" published by folks from "Der Spiegel" as well as the latest excerpts from David Leigh's book published by the Guardian, it appears to have turned into one big pissing contest between Bill Keller, David Leigh and Julian Assange.

So far, I have read neither "WikiLeaks: Inside Julian Assange's War on Secrecy" (Guardian) nor "Open Secrets: Wikileaks, War and American Diplomacy" (New York Times), just "Staatsfeind WikiLeaks" (Der Spiegel). But comments and op-eds at "Der Spiegel" and "Le Monde" differ quite significantly from those at the NYT in particular.

On a different note, how about these two tweets by David House, Bradley Manning's only allowed visitor, together with Jane Hamsher:

Visited Bradley this weekend; his conditions are still intolerable, but we talked at length about Egypt & Tunisia.

Bradley is in a shocked state due to solitary confinement, but his mood and mind soared when I mentioned the democratic uprisings in Egypt.

So it's been two years. I hope everyone is doing well. A little older, a little wiser? Better, faster, stronger, smarter?

It looks like @NetRunner and @dystopianfuturetoday are still up to their old haunts. Learn anything in the last two years? History impart any lessons? A lot has happened since then. War, recession, inflation, destruction, pollution, the devaluing of the dollar.

Maybe meet up in another two years to see if anything more has changed? That is, if it is even possible. By then, we may have already lost net neutrality and the world wide web will a corporatized splash screen. "Choose your website from the following options." Worse yet, this site could be bought out by DynCorp and transformed into another corporate puppet ala Digg.com.

That is, if any of us even have jobs or savings to pay the internet bill. What with the massive inflation from the multi-trillion dollar "bailouts," handouts, QE3, QE4, QE5 etc. Ever pay attention to your supermarket bill over the years? What will the dollar be worth in two years if it has already decreased in value by upwards of 50% in the last few years? How about employment after the looming double-dip, recession, or second great depression. How many of the posters here will even have jobs anymore?

One thing is for certain, there is nothing special about American labor. China is in the lead in education, America is barely in the top 20. The average salary in America is somewhere in the $40,000 range. In China, less than $7000. I hope you've enjoyed the run while it lasted. Be prepared to swallow your pride along with your massive pay-cut as you realize the only thing sustaining this country is reckless consumerism. What do they tell you every Black Friday? Spend, Spend, Spend? Buy what you can't afford so you can be paid what you don't deserve. Nothing exists in nature "above unity," not even the American dream.

Forget the economy, what will our government be like in 2 years? Already, we sell little boys to afghan leaders and our presidential candidates threaten journalists with murder. Perhaps worse is all of our presidential candidates are identical. "Do you want the red or blue pill? They both taste the same." We torture our own citizens with solitary confinement for 6 months without trail. We've killed over 1 million civilians in Iraq, 15% of the way to our own holocaust. Corporations lay waste to our environment with no consequence. When they commit fraud, we give them billion dollar bonuses instead of criminal charges.

The internet is the primary source of dissent and "free thought" in the modern era. Two things diametrically opposed to corporate and governmental dictatorship. You forget because your mind doesn't think on large time scales, but the internet is just a baby. How long has it really been around, 20 years? That's not even old enough to drink alcohol. You've already seen what governments can do to the internet in China. You've already seen what corporations can do to the internet in Canada. How long before that becomes the norm and not the exception? You take it for granted what you have, then they turn your head while they steal it piece-by-piece. How often did you turn your head, when it wasn't yours they took?

"They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Yeah, things have been going quite well "as is." Keep you finger's crossed for the next new political "savior" and I'll see you in another 2 years...maybe.

Again, i havent said anything to support waterboarding or any form of torture. I can definately understand peoples opposition to this method or any in particular.

I do however get annoyed with comments such as those above that have no basis, reason, or contribution to the argument. Last time I checked, solitary confinement, full cavity searches, and many other unpleasent practices are completely accepted, so you can turn that same argument back on yourself, imstellar or raverman.

Do you support solitary confinement? Full cavity searches? how about using food stamps or waiting in line at a welfare office? Well if you havent experienced them first hand than you're too ignorant to have an opinion....seems like pretty dumb reasoning doesnt it?

Most of us havent experienced the unpleasantness of our penal system because we havent committed crimes to warrant it. Many of us haven't experienced many things that people go through on a daily basis that might range from uncomfortable to downright demeaning. Does that mean that we have no basis to form an opinion about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of said things?

I've never experienced having my hand smashed with a hammer, but I can say I completely disagree with its use in interrogation. I also haven't experienced a true "good cop, bad cop" routine, but i have no problem with its use in interrogation.

I'm pretty sure everyone can agree that waterboarding would be a horrible experience, even those who support its use in interrogation can not deny that. So please ease up on the "if u support it then u should have to live through it" cause its very hypocritical unless you dont support any type of negative system in our county that you haven't experienced first hand.

Oh and if anyone is curious, yes i have experienced almost drowning, being held under in a pooly bya cousin playing "Jaws" as a kid and even today I can still remember that it was a horrible experience I'd rather not relive, and I can also say I haven't had any nightmares or long term problems from it. Does that mean my opinion for or against waterboarding carries any more weight? Absolutely not.

Perhaps the act of learning is its own reward? Whether they get to use that knowledge to amass material goods to make life easier is of secondary importance. I know that sounds idealistic, especially given the (assumed) fact that your students probably have far more pressing concerns than gaining happiness from reading and understanding Shakespeare. But if they can retreat from any of the ugliness in their world to a mental space of their own which gives them happiness, wouldn't that be worth it to them? I'm kind of thinking along the lines of what Andy Dufresne told other inmates in "The Shawshank Redemption" about taking Mozart and Bach, etc., with him into the hole (solitary confinement). It's the thing 'they' can never take away from you.

What subjects are you tutoring? What ages are these kids?

[edit] You could also make the point that even if the subject itself won't give them any particular happiness (I heard a rumor that some people don't derive pleasure from abstract mathematics, but I don't really believe it), rising to the challenge and overcoming it certainly will. Not to mention the self-confidence it will give them, and how that self-confidence can feed into every other part of their lives.

For balance, from the PhoenixNewTimes story:
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1999-03-25/news/is-john-mccain-a-war-hero/

To say that Earl and Patty Hopper devote all of their waking hours to the POW/MIA issue would be just short of an overstatement. They travel the country in an RV, visiting other POW/MIA-niks, attending conferences, badgering government officials for more information about Earl Jr.

The Hoppers have located two former POWs who claim they were senior ranking officers at the time McCain says he was tortured in solitary confinement. Ted Guy and Gordon "Swede" Larson both tell New Times that while they could not guarantee that McCain was not physically harmed, they doubted it.
"Between the two of us, it's our belief, and to the best of our knowledge, that no prisoner was beaten or harmed physically in that camp [known as "The Plantation"]," Larson says. ". . . My only contention with the McCain deal is that while he was at The Plantation, to the best of my knowledge and Ted's knowledge, he was not physically abused in any way. No one was in that camp. It was the camp that people were released from."

>> ^twiddles:

Amendment VIII
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."
pun·ish·ment
1: the act of punishing
2 a: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
   b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3: severe, rough, or disastrous treatment

Nowhere does it define punishment as being post conviction. Indeed the amendment as a single sentence mentions bail which is certainly not restricted to post conviction. The logical conclusion based on the possible definitions of punishment - even if you were to read the constitution and its amendments literally - is that cruel or unusual punishment (severe treatment) at any time is prohibited. How do you get to punishment as being only something that happens upon conviction? Any case law to back that up? Is it okay if I hit you repeatedly with an iron bar as long as I am "interogatting" you? That flies in the face of logic. If you stretch it enough you can say it is okay if you kill the suspect as long as you were interrogating them.
I agree with NetRunner, Scalia isn't doing his job correctly and he is being a smug prick about it.


rickegee already pointed out the case law.

The dictionary definitions are moot because legal definitions differ from common dictionary definitions. Here is the legal definition of cruel and unusual punisment. Note that it specifies convicted criminal defendants:

"cruel and unusual punishment n. governmental penalties against convicted criminal defendants which are barbaric, involve torture and/or shock the public morality. They are specifically prohibited under the Eighth Amendment to the U. S. Constitution. However, nowhere are they specifically defined. Tortures like the rack (stretching the body inch by inch) or the thumbscrew, dismemberment, breaking bones, maiming, actions involving deep or long-lasting pain are all banned. But solitary confinement, enforced silence, necessary force to prevent injury to fellow prisoners or guards, psychological humiliation, and bad food are generally allowed. In short, there is a large gray area, in which "cruel and unusual" is definitely subjective based on individual sensitivities and moral outlook. The U. S. Supreme Court waffled on the death penalty, declaring that some forms of the penalty were cruel and prohibited under the Furman case (1972), which halted executions for several years, but later relaxed the prohibition. The question remains if the gas chamber, hanging, or electrocution are cruel and unusual. Cruel, certainly, but hanging was not unusual at the time the Bill of Rights was adopted. (See: capital punishment)"

West's Encyclopedia of American Law, edition 2. Copyright 2008 The Gale Group, Inc.

No one is saying it's okay to beat (American) prisoners or the like. The argument is that other constitutional rights and other laws are being violated in those cases: not the 8th Amendment.

The Norwegian supreme court refused to extradite because US prisons didn't meet minimum humanitarian standards.

The threat of gang rape creates an incentive to break even more rules in the hope you'll land in solitary confinement.

Released after 2 years in solitary confinement without charge, ouch

"Vanunu survived the ordeal didn't he?" - he spent 18 years in prison, including more than 11 years served in solitary confinement - a fate worse than death?

"No offense, the occasional interesting video is great... But let's not turn VS into some Palestine/Israel street fight." - Agreed - just wanted to have at least one clip which showed that this isn't a Muslim/Arab against Jew thing, or a Palestine against Israel thing, but a peace thing.

Apparently this guy is a hardcore criminal, "I spent one year
and six months in solitary confinement."
He went back to jail after his gig as a psychic was over.