It's been a bit of a social science experiment.

For decades now the west has been telling it's children that they are all special and unique precious flowers. Their self esteem has been stroked and coddled. They've been protected from anything in their life ever being "hard".

Now there is a huge number of depressed, disenchanted youth all expecting to be ceo', celebrities and sport stars and unwilling to put in a hard days work and start at the bottom.

@berticus yeah.. this sift does seem to fall flat on it's ass, halfway through reading that PDF. When you think of some of the workplace workgroups (communication seminars.. ect.).. which fuel the whole self help movement:

"Injunctions to ‘‘think positively’’ are pervasive in North America.
Self-help books, television shows, and loved ones advise
thinking positively when one faces a challenge or is unhappy.
Yet the present results suggest that for certain people, positive
self-statements may be not only ineffective, but actually detrimental.
When people with low self-esteem repeated the statement,
‘‘I’m a lovable person’’ (Study 2), or focused on ways in
which this statement was true of them (Study 3), neither their
feelings about themselves nor their moods improved—"

I got more reading to do
Regards,
ZDM

>> ^Payback:

Game is bullshit. Studies have shown (ya ya I can't find one but I've read them) that a sober woman has decided to, or not, sleep with you within the first 5 seconds and no amount of game will change that.

How on earth did they go about proving that?

I'm sure I can do a lot of things to change her mind to not sleep with me. *fart*

>> ^Payback:

Game is bullshit. Studies have shown (ya ya I can't find one but I've read them) that a sober woman has decided to, or not, sleep with you within the first 5 seconds and no amount of game will change that.

>> ^messenger:

Maybe he is, but that's not the question he asked. He asked how to last longer. "Ages" wasn't in the question.
You and Dan have both made some assumptions about the guy asking. He might already be great in bed and fully confident in himself and his ability to please his partner, and still want to last longer. Maybe he'd like to be able to enjoy several minutes of intercourse, rather than three strokes before blowing his wad. Maybe his partner would like to get pounded longer. Methods for delaying orgasm is a valid question, and deserves a straight answer with no assumptions made about his overall performance or self-esteem.>> ^alien_concept:

Well maybe what he's pointing out is that there is no need to last for ages through penetration alone if you concentrate on doing other stuff in between. Anyway, unless a woman is lucky enough to be able to orgasm through penetration, it gets pretty old pretty quick. Maybe that's just me though



Yes the writer could have been asking for any one of those reasons you gave, although I think you're being a tad pedantic. Let's face it, usually when a guy is worried about not lasting it's because he feels either embarrassed at his performance and/or is worrying how his partner feels about it.

And even if he wasn't asking for that reason, Dan Savage has never been one for just replying to the individual specifically. He uses the questions as a springboard, so that he can give his advice on the more widespread and common issues about sex and relationships that plague so many people. Then effectively he has helped maybe hundreds of people, rather than just one.

Maybe he is, but that's not the question he asked. He asked how to last longer. "Ages" wasn't in the question.

You and Dan have both made some assumptions about the guy asking. He might already be great in bed and fully confident in himself and his ability to please his partner, and still want to last longer. Maybe he'd like to be able to enjoy several minutes of intercourse, rather than three strokes before blowing his wad. Maybe his partner would like to get pounded longer. Methods for delaying orgasm is a valid question, and deserves a straight answer with no assumptions made about his overall performance or self-esteem.>> ^alien_concept:


Well maybe what he's pointing out is that there is no need to last for ages through penetration alone if you concentrate on doing other stuff in between. Anyway, unless a woman is lucky enough to be able to orgasm through penetration, it gets pretty old pretty quick. Maybe that's just me though

She's gone mad, obviously. But there's still room for debate, which is to ponder why she had lost her mind.

Perhaps she already had very low self esteem to begin with, and is seeking attention.

I'm voting this up pretty much purely because I want to see the discussion on this, not so much because I agree with him.

There are truths in what he says, that those who partook in the riots are self involved, self pitying shits who have no justification for doing what they did.

But... this whole 'how/where you were brought up is no excuse for the way you are' line of thinking is rubbish.

It's much easier to have a sense of worth and see that work = reward equation when you've been brought up in a supportive environment where all your basic needs are taken care of without thought and time is then spent on your self esteem and treating other with respect etc.

If you were brought up in a low income environment with parents who don't have any self esteem themselves and pass on that feeling to their children. If time after time you try to do the right thing or work hard and yet are shot down by negative others in your environment or just otherwise shown that cleaning up or doing work doesn't change your situation much... then yeah, you can start getting a world view that doesn't include making an effort because you've never seen it work, you've never been told that if you try you could actually accomplish something.

Sure you can wheel out examples of hugely successful people who dragged themselves out of such situations, but they are BY FAR in the minority, and come from either pretty exceptional character traits in themselves, or you may find that they had one or two mentors who made a huge difference in how they lead their lives.

So Pat's rant about it all being their fault is not entirely true. It's a case of society as a whole not having in place ways of breaking the shitty cycle of poor, self abusing, self loathing parents = the same type of kids.

If programs of one sort or another can be introduced that can show those kids that hard work can make a difference, that they are worthy, and give them opportunities to use any skills they may have productively, then you CAN stop this sort of mentality. You CAN instil a feeling of pride in your neighbourhood, you CAN reduce this ME ME ME thinking.

Pat's thinking doesn't help anything. To help things he could be starting up some centres to start these things moving in the right direction, he could be volunteering for groups that I'm sure already exist who are trying to do these things, but I'm sure are woefully understaffed.

But no, he'd rather just call them all scum and pretend it's entirely their fault and that his upbringing and education have nothing to do with him living comfortably.

This is just some middle of the road, middle england mid-morning BBC presenter trying to stop unsubstantiated and potentially dangerous anti-police rhetoric going out to the country. The BBC are the most reliable mainstream news source in the UK except maybe for the Guardian but they do have a 'look after the country and include everyone' agenda. Hardly the worst problem to have with a news agency.

Darkus has been vociferously sharing his opinion with the BBC for my whole life. He's OK by me and he has a good point about black kids being pissed off with the cops, nothing new there.

But this guy Duggan *ALLEGEDLY* had a loaded 9mm in his hand when the armed police came to get him. IF that's true (and remember de Menezes before believing them) then its a very short step to getting shot from there. As an excuse for a horde of chav 14 year olds to pile out of the estates into sports shops and steal trainers and flatscreens it's off message enough to be irresponsible to broadcast.

The real problem, that the BBC will stay will clear of on the morning news, is 30 years of unregulated capitalism, training kids to build their self esteem around what they have and relying on the market to get it to them. The market isn't looking after these families any more, and that means no one is. No brains, no prospects, no jobs, no money and still a constant barrage of adverts telling them what to desire. More trouble to come..

>> ^Sagemind:

In Canada - I believe it's 6-9 months (Paid- although at a reduced rate) leave. And either the man or the woman can take the leave - but not both.


One year, basically, but yeah, the rest is correct. There is a correlation between parental leave and family cohesion, societal well being and child self-esteem.

Oh, and "holiday"? Fuck you. Pretty sure you are neither female nor a parent.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

This industry preys on women with poor self-esteem. It's pretty fucked up, I'd rather put a plate in my lip.

The thing that disappoints me about statements like these is that they're not objective. There's a general tendency among the hardcore liberals here (not you specifically but I find this to be an example of this behavior) to defend values like freedom of choice/speech/etc, but only so long as they fit certain ideals they have for their vision of a 'good society'.

I get what you're saying, I can honestly tell you that I not only sympathize but whole-heartily agree; damn shame that a woman would subject her perfectly natural, normal body to this procedure.

But here's where we part ways: so what if it disturbs me? Who the hell cares what I think? It's her choice. I don't support women's right to have abortions because I think they're the proper/healthy course of action for some women in some situations (though they definitely are), I support it because it should be their right to decide what's proper/healthy for themselves, regardless of how I feel about it.

And as for cito, his comment wasn't worth reading let alone commenting on. I would downvote but I was under the impression I have to be some special-star-mega-shiny-member to downvote stuff.

>> ^bareboards2:

No, I don't think it is irrelevant.
If every single person said to this poor woman -- your body was beautiful just the way it was, please don't deform yourself for some idea in your head, then maybe just maybe, this would stop.
And yeah, I can have an opinion. A really strong one.
And yes, doctors who deform perfectly healthy bodies should be subject to peer review.
I had a friend years ago who had breast enhancement surgery. She lost a lot of weight and was so happy to be comfortable in her body. With the weight loss, her breasts shrunk and were deformed looking. She showed me a picture of her before -- it looked like she had two deflated hot dogs laying down her chest.
Now there is a woman whose self esteem was truly enhanced by surgery.
This woman? No way.
You want to comment on someone's post? Go say something to @cito. That is the most disgusting, rank, filthy thing he wrote and I am the only one to downvote it? And you want to lecture me about my opinion?


>> ^NinjaInHeat:
The doctor is a villain and should lose his license? Did he do something wrong or is that your general stand regarding any plastic surgeon? How about tattoo artists?
Whether you approve or not is irrelevant, wouldn't you agree?

No, I don't think it is irrelevant.

If every single person said to this poor woman -- your body was beautiful just the way it was, please don't deform yourself for some idea in your head, then maybe just maybe, this would stop.

And yeah, I can have an opinion. A really strong one.

And yes, doctors who deform perfectly healthy bodies should be subject to peer review.

I had a friend years ago who had breast enhancement surgery. She lost a lot of weight and was so happy to be comfortable in her body. With the weight loss, her breasts shrunk and were deformed looking. She showed me a picture of her before -- it looked like she had two deflated hot dogs laying down her chest.

Now there is a woman whose self esteem was truly enhanced by surgery.

This woman? No way.

You want to comment on someone's post? Go say something to @cito. That is the most disgusting, rank, filthy thing he wrote and I am the only one to downvote it? And you want to lecture me about my opinion?




>> ^NinjaInHeat:

The doctor is a villain and should lose his license? Did he do something wrong or is that your general stand regarding any plastic surgeon? How about tattoo artists?
Whether you approve or not is irrelevant, wouldn't you agree?

"Breast enhancement surgery benefits women who are unhappy with the size, shape, or form of their breasts. Often times, breast size impacts a womans security with herself and her body. By recontouring the shape, with the help of saline or silicone implants, these women regain their confidence and self-esteem, allowing them to feel sexy, desirable, and good about themselves."

*sigh* I hate our fuckin' species.

Nope. Home grown Americans.

In reply to this comment by bobknight33:
Are you talking about Men of Muslime faith?

In reply to this comment by bareboards2:
And never underestimate the evil that exists in a low-self-esteem man who needs to control his wife and children... how many men kill their own kids to punish women for leaving them? Kill the women for daring to leave them?