Police brutality is like soldiers going ape-shit and shooting people they're not supposed to. It's not that it's private or statist, but rather it's individuals that break and weren't fit for the job.

What needs to be done, is to make incitements for better people to want to become officers. There are different ways to do this; raise the pay, higher entry demands on education/other tests, bonuses payed on "good behavior" stuff like that. Fully privatizing the police force is not a good idea, I think (*memories of blackwater*) since they are a basic brick of the society, keeping law and order. I want many things privatized, but emergency stuff I don't. Fire department, ambulances, police all that jazz should be covered by the state, since they are indispensable and we cannot allow "we went bankrupt" to make us lose lives for whatever reason.

Think of a privatized fire department that fails to show up because they went bankrupt the night before... very bad idea right there.

First off - congrats NR on a rare manifestation... Civil dialog. Here's hoping it becomes a habit rather than an exception.

there's a moral problem with military targeting civilian population centers.

Countries don't put production and infrastructure into "military-only zones". Fuel, electricity, steel, plastic, textiles, technology, computers, food, factories, manufacturing plants, and many other commodities are also critical military supplies. Action that effectively impacts the ability of a government to support a military by necessity will target civilian population centers.

We're looking for what amount to organized criminals operating within the borders of sovereign foreign nations. ...We're looking to stop a bunch of Timothy McVeighs in a country that doesn't really have any sort of governmental enforcement of law and order.

Hm - disagree on semantics. McVeigh was a radical that operated AGAINST the government he was within. Terror groups recruit locally by playing on local prejudices, but their heart and soul (and wallet) belong to some other nation. Case in point with the 9/11 bombers. A more accurate comparison would be your second one, where you hypothesized what a foreign government would do if McVeigh blew up their buildings - let's say Saddam's palace. If TMcV did that then the U.S. would have said, "Oh - terrible tragedy... We condemn it utterly..." but behind closed doors they'd pop champaign and maybe sponsor other radical groups in the hopes of getting a few more TMcVs to crop up.

The use of these kinds of 'plausible deniability' terror-ops forces is becoming more and more common. They can't do large-scale damage without nukes (thank goodness) in most areas. However, in Arab nations there are so many tribal rivalries and bad blood that they can do more than just commit random atrocities. They can topple nations, and win wars. And even in the U.S. they did billions in damage and killed thousands. My opinion is when nations in any way support these radicals they are culpable and have no right or expectation of immunity from a response.

@Winstonfield_Pennypacker I think you're still not engaging the central criticism several of us are leveling at you -- there's a moral problem with military targeting civilian population centers.

Add to this that in the case of our "war on terror", what we're really involved in here is a sort of international law enforcement effort. We weren't attacked by the military of Afghanistan, and we're not fighting their military now. We're looking for what amount to organized criminals operating within the borders of sovereign foreign nations. We're not looking to destroy the effectiveness of the Afghani people to wage war on us with their military, we're looking to stop a bunch of Timothy McVeighs in a country that doesn't really have any sort of governmental enforcement of law and order.

What you're talking about is a tactic I would argue was only barely justified to stop the Axis powers in WWII, against a country whose only crime is failing to root out criminals within their midst who merely have aspirations of launching an attack on US soil.

Just imagine if Timothy McVeigh had decided to blow up some important building in China instead of the US. Would China be justified in invading us, overthrowing our government and installing a puppet government, then bombing our infrastructure and civilian centers until they felt sure they'd killed every last member of a militia group in the US?

1- Of course not. It is well known and documented that police stop and harass people depending of factors such as color, where they live, class, etc. The drug war is a prime example of a set of laws that everyone breaks, but are selectively enforced. There are many others, if you want to get into it.

Ah, yes, LA, that epicenter of police justice. Home of dirty cops who make up evidence to convict folks. Didn't they recently have to overturn hundreds of convictions due to dirty cops' behavior?

>> ^volumptuous:
1- Bullshit point. Citing/ticketing a person for breaking the law happens on every "side of the track", or whatever you're calling it. In fact, this "side of the track" is the officers beat. This is where he is every day. These are the people he is served to protect.
2- If you read this thread, you'd see my earlier account of my friend being ticketed for this same thing. My friend is also white, blonde, blue-eyed and makes a lot of money. But, cops didn't care, they saw a guy jaywalking and pulled him over. He wasn't suckerpunched because I didn't try to intervene and then push the officer like the girl in this video!
3- One girl was 19. Not a minor. The other (who pushed him) is 17. You're treating them like they're 8 or 9 years old.
4- Someone in the crowd yelled out "there's going to be a riot, right here".
5- The officer needs more training in subduing a perp. Otherwise, he ended the situation appropriately.
6- I've been arrested three times in my life. I didn't fight back during any one of them, nor did I call the officers names, or try to run away.
I lived for years in downtown Detroit, and now I live in one of the most violent, gang ridden parts of Los Angeles. Please do NOT tell me anything about color prejudice or police conduct. It seems the one here with no experience with law enforcement, or gang voilence, are the ones so quick to point the finger at us.
I'm one of the first to point out police misconduct, and basically have very little respect for authority. But that disrespect doesn't make me blind and cry wolf every time a cop arrests someone.
btw: Longde - your post above shows exactly what happened. People were breaking the law, the cop tried to stop them, they resisted, one pushed the cop, the cop ended the situation. The end.
>> ^longde:
1) I think the girls were stupid and should be taught how to deal with officers who have no respect for your age or gender, especially if you live on the wrong side of the tracks
2) I just can't imagine this happening to some of the skinny blonds I knew in high school, some of whom were just as crazy. I can't see them being suckerpunched. can you?
3) Despite some of you wanting to make an exception for these girls because they don't fit the phenotype you prefer, they are kids and minors, with the same mentality as such. It absolutely does matter in this situation.
4) The crowd was not hysterical, not a mob, not a riot. Look at their behavior, not their skin color. They were very restrained, not physically interfering at all. Just paying attention and recording to make sure this didn't turn into another 'accidental' cop murder. Given the history of cops, I can't blame those folks for being wary.
5) The officer obviously needs more training. To let a jaywalking infraction escalate into punching a 17 year old girl is unacceptable.
6) You law and order types would not be quiet and respectful if you thought some officer arresting you was in the wrong. You feel the way you do because you seldom encounter aggressive cops. Well, some people deal with that type everyday.

1- Bullshit point. Citing/ticketing a person for breaking the law happens on every "side of the track", or whatever you're calling it. In fact, this "side of the track" is the officers beat. This is where he is every day. These are the people he is served to protect.

2- If you read this thread, you'd see my earlier account of my friend being ticketed for this same thing. My friend is also white, blonde, blue-eyed and makes a lot of money. But, cops didn't care, they saw a guy jaywalking and pulled him over. He wasn't suckerpunched because I didn't try to intervene and then push the officer like the girl in this video!

3- One girl was 19. Not a minor. The other (who pushed him) is 17. You're treating them like they're 8 or 9 years old.

4- Someone in the crowd yelled out "there's going to be a riot, right here".

5- The officer needs more training in subduing a perp. Otherwise, he ended the situation appropriately.

6- I've been arrested three times in my life. I didn't fight back during any one of them, nor did I call the officers names, or try to run away.

I lived for years in downtown Detroit, and now I live in one of the most violent, gang ridden parts of Los Angeles. Please do NOT tell me anything about color prejudice or police conduct. It seems the one here with no experience with law enforcement, or gang voilence, are the ones so quick to point the finger at us.

I'm one of the first to point out police misconduct, and basically have very little respect for authority. But that disrespect doesn't make me blind and cry wolf every time a cop arrests someone.


btw: Longde - your post above shows exactly what happened. People were breaking the law, the cop tried to stop them, they resisted, one pushed the cop, the cop ended the situation. The end.



>> ^longde:

1) I think the girls were stupid and should be taught how to deal with officers who have no respect for your age or gender, especially if you live on the wrong side of the tracks
2) I just can't imagine this happening to some of the skinny blonds I knew in high school, some of whom were just as crazy. I can't see them being suckerpunched. can you?
3) Despite some of you wanting to make an exception for these girls because they don't fit the phenotype you prefer, they are kids and minors, with the same mentality as such. It absolutely does matter in this situation.
4) The crowd was not hysterical, not a mob, not a riot. Look at their behavior, not their skin color. They were very restrained, not physically interfering at all. Just paying attention and recording to make sure this didn't turn into another 'accidental' cop murder. Given the history of cops, I can't blame those folks for being wary.
5) The officer obviously needs more training. To let a jaywalking infraction escalate into punching a 17 year old girl is unacceptable.
6) You law and order types would not be quiet and respectful if you thought some officer arresting you was in the wrong. You feel the way you do because you seldom encounter aggressive cops. Well, some people deal with that type everyday.

1) I think the girls were stupid and should be taught how to deal with officers who have no respect for your age or gender, especially if you live on the wrong side of the tracks

2) I just can't imagine this happening to some of the skinny blonds I knew in high school, some of whom were just as crazy. I can't see them being suckerpunched. can you?

3) Despite some of you wanting to make an exception for these girls because they don't fit the phenotype you prefer, they are kids and minors, with the same mentality as such. It absolutely does matter in this situation.

4) The crowd was not hysterical, not a mob, not a riot. Look at their behavior, not their skin color. They were very restrained, not physically interfering at all. Just paying attention and recording to make sure this didn't turn into another 'accidental' cop murder. Given the history of cops, I can't blame those folks for being wary.

5) The officer obviously needs more training. To let a jaywalking infraction escalate into punching a 17 year old girl is unacceptable.

6) You law and order types would not be quiet and respectful if you thought some officer arresting you was in the wrong. You feel the way you do because you seldom encounter aggressive cops. Well, some people deal with that type everyday.

I clicked on this expecting some kind of outrageous action by the police officer. I am not apologist for the police; I think the have militarized and extended their "us vrs them" philosophy to the point where they are no longer serving the public in some cases; they are becoming thugs. Not all police, and not all police forces, but it is definitely going in the wrong direction. And time after time I see videos where the police report of the incident was a flat out lie.

Putting aside the matter of what the charge was for the moment, I really fail to see how this video is an outrage. In fact, he seems to show a lot of restraint to me. One guy with a crowd around him, a fair bit of the crowd hostile. He is just trying to arrest one person, who is resisting. Sure he could have slammed her down on the hood, hurt her and cuffed her, but he choose not to; it likely would have riled the crowd, plus be pretty nasty. Once he is in the position where another person tries to interfere, he really only has two choices: Leave or escalate. Leaving is not a good option, overall law and order wise; it will create complications. His escalation is just a single punch that will do no lasting harm and solves the two on one problem instantly without further damage or harm. He does not freak out and seems to be trying to not escalate. I'll bet that if they had just talked to him, took their ticket and moved on there would not have been a problem.

All in all, the resolution seemed about as good as it was likely to be.

Things are looking up in Jet City. The cops are finally bringing the jaywalking menace to its knees. Score another one for law and order.

You guys act like government is only roads, fire departments and public schools. You paint a wonderful Norman Rockwell painting of government.

But let's not forget where your money also goes: bank bailouts, nationalizing corporations, massive defense spending, war, bans on gay marriage, militarizing local police, etc. Wonderful fight you're fighting there, guys.

And you describe taxes as theft implemented with force. The closest the world can come to your tax free ideal is places free of any government at all. Somalia comes to mind.

Articulate your alternatives and defend them. If taxes are 'theft', then explain how even rudimentary law and order is supposed to be provided for in your better alternative. Pointing out how terrifically broken our system is doesn't count, we all agree. It's solutions that are needed, and we're merely pointing out that your so called solutions are anything but.

I started making a video, but then I was sidetracked by ten episodes of Law and Order: SVU. My bad.

>> ^dag:
Don't forget to check out Choggie's video, our only entry to date. You have until 23:59 local Tongan time to submit your video.
promote

Interesting. Talking about it openly like that seems like an honorable thing for Jay to do.

I have had a feeling for a long time that networks are way, way, way too tied to short term ratings when they make long-term decisions. Couple of examples, remember these are just my opinions:

Seinfeld is probably on the top of the list of my favorite shows I have watched during my life. However, the first season sucked. It definitely sucked in comparison to later seasons, and honestly I think that it wasn't really even good in comparison to standard TV dreck/fare that first season. It didn't get particularly good ratings, but it got picked up for a 2nd season. It then started to get better. Not extremely rapidly, but pretty quickly. It rose fast enough to get the slot after "Cheers", which introduced it to enough more of an audience that it exploded. One of the few examples of a network being nice and patient with a show that was struggling to a certain extent, and it payed off *huge*.

Lets go with Firefly specifically, but basically anything Joss Whedon has ever done fits to a certain extent. Firely comes out, and it isn't advertised very much. Fox thinks it is too cerebral and deep, it needs more things blowing up and less talky-talky. So, they cut his original pilot, rearrange episodes, and don't even provide the show with a stable timeslot, let alone a good one. It gets less than a full season to try the waters and build an audience before it is canceled. In the meantime, we've got umpteen versions of Law and Order, CSI, etc., and a very conservative guess of 2 hours of "reality" TV on in primetime per day per network. They had a show that was great and different, and at the very least could have captured a niche market of people who wanted something else beyond watching vacuous morons kick each other onto/off of "the island" etc.

It seems to me that a network that was willing to take some risks, go with their actual opinions instead of instantaneous market research ratings, and give any new show at least 1-2 seasons to catch its balance would quite possibly make for some great shows with dedicated audiences.

Most of the tech in movies and TV is plain bullshit. It makes watching CSI, 24, Law and Order and so many other shows unbearable to watch as a geek.

This is a problem addressed and solved on Law and Order years ago. Set up a degausing loop around your computer room door, disguise it. When the idiot police remove your computer, the degausing loop will erase and jumble your hard drive data making it un-recoverable. At least, that's the claim (made by more than just Law and Order) I've never tested it.
Handing your computer to the police is the worst idea I've heard in years. There's nothing to stop them from charging you just because you brought them the evidence. It just makes it easier for them to convict. That woman should be sued by the first person to take her advice who gets prosecuted.
This public defender should be disbared for such assinine advice, if what they said is true.

Once the religious, the hunted and weary
Chasing the promise of freedom and hope
Came to this country to build a new vision
Far from the reaches of kingdom and pope
Like good Christians, some would burn the witches
Later some got slaves to gather riches

But still from near and far to seek America
They came by thousands to court the wild
And she just patiently smiled and bore a child
To be their spirit and guiding light

And once the ties with the crown had been broken
Westward in saddle and wagon it went
And 'til the railroad linked ocean to ocean
Many the lives which had come to an end
While we bullied, stole and bought our a homeland
We began the slaughter of the red man

But still from near and far to seek America
They came by thousands to court the wild
And she just patiently smiled and bore a child
To be their spirit and guiding light

The blue and grey they stomped it
They kicked it just like a dog
And when the war over
They stuffed it just like a hog

And though the past has it's share of injustice
Kind was the spirit in many a way
But it's protectors and friends have been sleeping
Now it's a monster and will not obey

(Suicide)
The spirit was freedom and justice
And it's keepers seem generous and kind
It's leaders were supposed to serve the country
But now they won't pay it no mind
'Cause the people grew fat and got lazy
And now their vote is a meaningless joke
They babble about law and order
But it's all just an echo of what they've been told
Yeah, there's a monster on the loose
It's got our heads into a noose
And it just sits there watchin'

Our cities have turned into jungles
And corruption is stranglin' the land
The police force is watching the people
And the people just can't understand
We don't know how to mind our own business
'Cause the whole worlds got to be just like us
Now we are fighting a war over there
No matter who's the winner
We can't pay the cost
'Cause there's a monster on the loose
It's got our heads into a noose
And it just sits there watching

(America)
America where are you now?
Don't you care about your sons and daughters?
Don't you know we need you now
We can't fight alone against the monster

Tags for this video have been changed from 'Robot Chicken, chickens, Law and Order, bok bok bugok' to 'Robot Chicken, chickens, Law and Order, bok bok bugok, kfc' - edited by xxovercastxx