Im moving to Connecticut at the end of this year. I am looking forward to joining (one of) the local groups there, now that I know of the sport. Fencing and Kendo have always been too 'restrained' for me. This is most likely due to not understanding certain, set customs on my part, but from my perspective if my nature, and what I perceive as natural, oversteps some organizations predefine ruleset, I can't see it as a test of actual ability. You can most certainly find examples for and against that, but that's how I look at a particular structure prior to empirical evidence.
If I were to translate that to human understanding it would probably be: In the majority of competitive events throughout my life, when questioned on the 'why' of rules, 'just because' has been the overwhelming answer, rather than a rational understanding/explanation of the sport.
Anyway, I'm going to longsword some mother-fuckers in a few months, and I can't wait for that final joust and the claiming of the princess, silhouetted against that raging castle fireplace (Defender of the Crown reference, FYI).

I am by no means a cutty stabby person, but after this I looked around a bit. This is basically kendo: ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMxlqayAwG8&feature=related ) and you are right, it doesn't look like this at all.
What these guys are doing is called kenjutsu ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIxt3Zd6K0k ) which seems to be a whole other thing (kinda like comparing judo to karate). When you check out more of that kenjutsu stuff it all of a sudden looks a lot more "realistic".

Also, I am pretty sure that standing with your guard completely down and just moving your shoulders is probably not a valid sword fighting technique, but maybe this guy is just so bad-ass he doesn't care.

The stances employed according to far more geeky interweb friends is something like "Tamiya-ryu" or "Jigen-ryu" (somewhere between the late 15th and 16th century) and it actually involves mostly diagonal/vertical slices to the torso to try and kill your opponent in one blow. The goal was pretty much always to hit the enemy's throat and failing that slice the opponent in an up to down diagonal motion while denying your opponent to do the same.

>> ^Mauru:

>> ^mentality:
This looks ridiculous. When he "dodges" all he's doing is shifting his shoulders back while his head stays as stationary as a dead log. I guess it works if you're fighting someone dumb enough to consistently aim one foot to either side of the real target...

now imagine you were aiming for the head- giving his arms all the time to move... there is a reason why in pretty much in all sword and knife fighting schools (japanese and elsewhere) you are taught to aim for the body.
Also, a katana is usually used in semi-vertical slices since it wasn't specifically suited for stabbing (it'd get stuck).
Ofc this is a movie yadda yadda, but in a "real" fight the aim was to cut the shoulder/arms so you wouldnt hurt yourself charging in and could be ready for the next victim/attacker (that overhead stance is for fighting stuff on horses btw- forgot the name).


I never said that you should aim for the head specifically, but when you're making vertical slices, the head and the center of mass are inline.

The reason why swordmanship and marksmanship principles teach you to aim for the body is because it's the largest and easiest area to hit, and the center of mass is the hardest for the target to move in an attempt to dodge.

It makes no sense to aim for the shoulder, as it requires you to "charge in" just as much as if you were going for the center, but is much easier to miss. If you really wanted to disable someone, the wrists and forearms are a much better and less risky target, while the head, body, or throat are much higher reward targets. This is why hitting those areas will score you points in kendo, while the shoulder will not.

Basically, this fight makes no sense and looks retarded.

If you ask me, I don't think light saber battles look anything like kendo. Sure they're fast, but Olympic fencing is even faster.

That's one thing I've always wondered though: do light sabers (the "light" or blade part anyway) have any weight? Because they always use moves that incorporate the momentum of the blade. To me, light saber battles in the new movies look more like wushu than anything else. I used to have a book with a chapter about how Bob Anderson and Peter Diamond choreographed the fights for the original Star Wars movies but I can't find it now. Anyway, they based the styles off of older fencing styles. You can see that when you watch the movies how Luke's "Ready position" is with his feet well apart and his light saber off to the side, whereas Darth Vader has a more upright Kendo position with his blade always in front. But they also chose those styles because they looked good on camera, and they changed them further still so that they had a "wow" factor.

Either way, I think the fencing would look completely different if they were really using blades that only had mass in the handle. They would be able to change course instantly, making for a lot of very tricky (not to mention insanely fast) moves. But it would still probably look closer to European fencing. And the actors in the movies need something (which in Star Wars props I believe is a carbon fiber rod) that they can swing around and bang on another person's sword creating the illusion that the light sabers in the final product are actually touching. If they represented it accurately though (which no movie ever does) then a person who new nothing about fencing would probably have a very hard time seeing what was actually going on. And there would probably be a lot more missing hands and fingers like Luke's in Empire. The actual techniques of any fighting style usually need some sort of introduction before anyone can really tell what's going on though.

That said, I can see Xaieleo's point about how the older movies seem more realistic. Although I think "more determined" is a much more accurate way of describing them than "slower". So I can see your point as well Sheppp. As time goes on, everyone has just gotten used to the Chinese "fling your blade around like crazy style" that is taught in wushu, which is really more of an exercise anyway but looks WAY cooler on camera than most "realistic" combat moves.

And another thing...
The Darth Maul dual-ended staff thing has always bugged me. I can't think of any reason that one double-sided staff like that would ever be more effective than just using a light saber in each hand. It would be much more adaptable and the dual-staff thing just seems way too dangerous to the wielder.

One thing that I would love to have seen instead of the "dual-staff-thing", which I think is a cop out, are new types of light sabers, like Count Dooku's french-handled light saber. I would have loved a little more creativity. I don't get paid to come up with new ideas but I'm sure if I spent a little time, I could come up with a variation that was more impressive than just: "LOOK! This guy uses TWO light sabers glued together!!11!" I don't know, maybe a light-saber-parrying implement or something. I for one was not impressed.

There, I said it. Now you know what kind of things I think about when I'm sitting at home alone and the internet goes out.

>> ^Shepppard:

@<a rel="nofollow" href="http://videosift.com/member/Xaielao" title="member since March 13th, 2009" class="profilelink">Xaielao
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're the only one who thinks the old battles were better. The old battles were slow.. and that MADE them unrealistic.
In a typical swordfight, I'm pretty sure you're not gonna hit 3 times in 5 seconds and stop. And I can probably back the rest of that up with Lore.
Despite being "The Chosen One", Luke was only trained when he was older. Yoda came close to showing off a jedi's true potential by lifting the X-wing out of the marsh, but at that point he was old, and likely hadn't used the force for ages since Luke had appeared.
The Jedi we see in the prequel trilogy had been raised since they were insanely young (Younger then the 9 year old Anakin, because someone even says "He's too old.") and whenever you see someone fighting they're not just a run-of-the-mill jedi, it's typically someone from the council, essentially, the cream of the crop.
And.. just on a last little rant about the swordplay.. they're Jedi. Again, people trained since they were extremely young to use the force as a guide. Qui gon Jin at one point even says something about "He can see glimpses of the future, it's a jedi trait." which again, is something that happens in battle making the fights faster and more epic. Jedi are essentially a partial ripoff of samurai anyway.. and if you don't think sword fighting can be that fast and action packed, watch a couple good Kendo matches.



I may be the only one (though I sometimes doubt that hehe, but I must disagree about the saber battles in the original. They were choreographed by Bob Anderson, one of the greatest holywood sword trainers ever. The guy is behind literally every major action movie with sword fighting in them from Star Wars to The Lord of the Rings, and Pirates of the Caribbean to Highlander. The saber fights are slow I'll give you that, but they were slow for a reason. As I said they were choreographed in such a way that you could almost feel the battle of wills behind the sabers themselves.

@Xaielao

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're the only one who thinks the old battles were better. The old battles were slow.. and that MADE them unrealistic.

In a typical swordfight, I'm pretty sure you're not gonna hit 3 times in 5 seconds and stop. And I can probably back the rest of that up with Lore.

Despite being "The Chosen One", Luke was only trained when he was older. Yoda came close to showing off a jedi's true potential by lifting the X-wing out of the marsh, but at that point he was old, and likely hadn't used the force for ages before Luke had appeared.

The Jedi we see in the prequel trilogy had been raised since they were insanely young (Younger then the 9 year old Anakin, because someone even says "He's too old.") and whenever you see someone fighting they're not just a run-of-the-mill jedi, it's typically someone from the council, essentially, the cream of the crop.

And.. just on a last little rant about the swordplay.. they're Jedi. Again, people trained since they were extremely young to use the force as a guide. Qui gon Jin at one point even says something about "He can see glimpses of the future, it's a jedi trait." which again, is something that happens in battle making the fights faster and more epic. Jedi are essentially a partial ripoff of samurai anyway.. and if you don't think sword fighting can be that fast and action packed, watch a couple good Kendo matches.

You're quite welcome, it's the first post I've made in months, it's great to see that others appreciated it as much as I did.

In reply to this comment by rasch187:
Thanks for sharing the Kendo documentary, that's the kind of video that makes me love the sift. I bow to thee, sifting master of the 8th degree

Thanks for sharing the Kendo documentary, that's the kind of video that makes me love the sift. I bow to thee, sifting master of the 8th degree

great story about a fascinating subject. I love Kendo and have long wanted to learn more about it.

But, I have an issue with the way the test is run mechanically. If the only people to judge are the 8th Dan, then there is going to be a natural bias for them to only pick others that fit the mold that they also fit. Because the bouts are judged on "spirit" and other non-definable characteristics, it makes it virtually impossible to quantify quality, essentially turning this in to an old boys club that judges people not on their skill, but on whether they think the applicant fits in with the club.

these kinds of arrangements very often lead to stagnation. Imagine someone has come up with a crazy new technique that could beat all others, but completely breaks the mold of the past ways. My guess is this person would never make 8th Dan and probably not make it far up the ladder at all. Unless a competition has solid, quantifiable methods scoring quality, then true quality isn't being judged, personality is. To me, that doesn't seem like what sword fighting should be about. But, I'm American and I may not "get it".

you would never expect how real Ken are used.

Its a finesse weapon, the blade cannot travel in two planes, when it strikes at target it will warp.

kendo and, kenjutsu are farce.

Much like western gun duels, it is either over in an instant or it is a dirty grimy bowel exploding, shit covered ordeal.

The cuts are Shomen(straight up and down strike to the forhead), Yokomen(angled attacking the neck or temple), Do(angled attack to the sides of the stomach, right above the hips), hashi(attacking the back of the knees), and tsuki(thrusting). They can be executed on both sides of the body.

They are for cutting soft unarmored targets, with exception to Shomenuchi (most samurai had helmets with crests on them)

Most cuts are done with about 5 inches of the tip of the sword. There are no parries or, blocks. These movements are done so that the swordsmen knows where the enemies weapon is, because eyes should always be locked on their target. The only way to keep from getting hit with the weapon is to move your body out of the kill zone. Blocking puts your weapon in danger of damage.

I still dig these clips .

It's very commendable that he's had that level of dedication, but I think it's going too far to imply his art has anything to do with reality. Watch the guys at 1:00 lose all muscle control and fall to the ground after he twists their wrists. He has no power or mobility behind that twist to do anything.

If that's the context of these arts, I'm doubtful of how honest his kendo opponents are being.

Reality matters (even for people missing limbs), and developing the ability to ignore it, even temporarily, is going in the wrong direction, I think

>> ^spoco2:
I have to wonder if this is originally in English, and if it is, is that version available, as I'd love to know the insanely great dialogue they're spouting.

It`s from the film "The Ghost" from 2001
English version of the same clip here

The guy in the wheelchair is Henry Smalls, who lost both legs in a train accident when he was young (according to the german wikipedia entry)

Inspired me to post this short portrait of him:
http://www.videosift.com/video/Kendo-without-Legs-Henry-Smalls

Here is another Kendo Clip of him:

>> ^Kagenin:
As a side note, the Jo was developed to defeat Musashi's two-sword technique, or so the legend goes. The Bo staff was too long to get close enough to Musashi in a duel (this was when Musashi was using wooden swords to duel). The Jo, on the other hand, was shorter, and quicker to setup a defense and counter-attack in the rematch.

This is true, at least as passed down in legends since there are no documents from the time. However it is false to think that there is a connection between Shinto Muso Ryu, developed by Musō Gonnosuke Katsuyoshi after his defeat against Musashi, and the Jo developed by O-sensei. O-sensei's Jo is an amalgam of yari (spear), bo and bayonet techniques. It is said O-sensei was so good with the bayonet he became chief instructor not six months after entering the army. For an example of Shinto Muso Ryu: http://youtube.com/watch?v=H_wv6JdY2lI. Notice the starting position, the overhead strikes and the thrust at the end which is made without sliding the hands on the jo at all.

What is called Jodo by the way is a dumbed-down version of Shinto Muso Ryu for Kendo practitioners.

I agree, "collusive" (what you normally see in aikido)practice is useless. Forget about all that stuff they teach about ki and inner power. all it amounts to is good balance, and attacking the attacker.

I do like good discourse about the difference between art and discipline.

MMA is sport, as is kendo (fencing) and there are rules, as in all things. But in real "combat" (rare) there are no rules, and if only we could train like that can we be sure of any thing.

BTW That video below ... is really funny.

In reply to this comment by chilaxe:
Thanks for your response. I think if practitioners are used to their opponent giving them an arm to manipulate and not putting up resistance, they'll be very surprised if they're ever in combat with a determined attacker.

I think the momentum in the martial arts world is in favor of MMA, and the challenge for Aikido in the modern scene is to prove to skeptics it can be effective in that context. Relaxing the taboo against competing with other disciplines would probably go a long way. Also, the UFC has no rules against most Aikido moves, so if they were as effective as they're supposed to be, one would expect there would be at least one UFC fighter training in Aikido rather than the usual striking arts combined with submission wrestling/BJJ.

My concern is just that most people would be better off studying MMA-proven, combat-oriented disciplines .

In reply to this comment by NordlichReiter:
The aikido you see on youtube is demonstration. This Kiai master is not Aikido. He is Ki society. Until you have trained for a class in aikido Hapkido, or any of these types you cant understand that in certain holds you cannot fight without loosing a limb in the process.

I can speak for my school that there are serious students and there are the "I want a black belt type." Most of the time people are "I'm a black belt type." These people diminish the training. In the classes that I attend there are 2 wrestlers(judo), 4 bjj guys, several karateka(Japanese Schools), and 2 boxers. The rest are martial undergrads with no previous experience.

The one thing I have learned in 15 years of martial training, is that you cannot train to win, only train to survive. No situation is a surething, you may think you will win but even then you could trip on a pebble and fall on face.

In reply to this comment by chilaxe:
Don't be fooled. In aikido practice, if you resist the moves they're doing on you, they don't work and it's just embarrassing for everybody. Kind of like this classic vid: http://www.videosift.com/video/Kiai-Master-Gets-Owned

Empiricism is better than faith

This is cool, but I do not like Kendo and its principles. Its like fencing, they arent doing full cuts, their shomen attacks are ok, but all others are crap.