Tags for this video have been changed from 'Elliot Spitzer, Keith Olbermann' to 'Elliot Spitzer, Keith Olbermann, Occupy Wall Street, OWS' - edited by notarobot

>> ^VoodooV:

Sorry, but reality disagrees with you.
Demand for health care is not unlimited, it is finite. Sure it is a large demand, but it is quite finite. You're making a strawman argument because no one is advocating the absurd prolonging of life you're accusing others of.
News flash, we don't exist in a vacuum. We don't live in a universe where our decisions only affect us alone so your Ayn Rand fantasy utopia of everyone taking care of themselves and fuck the other guy doesn't exist..it never will.
It benefits everyone to give quality healthcare to all. We are more productive and contribute more when we don't have to bankrupt ourselves paying medical costs. We pay large amounts of money already because people don't have proper health care and don't do anything about it until they show up at the emergency room at death's door. Taxpayers foot that bill when they can't pay. So the question is simple: Do you want to pay for it now while it's cheap and easy to treat, or do you want to pay more later when it's a LOT worse and a hell of a lot more expensive.
Besides, you don't seem to mind spending other people's money and taking their lives when it comes to defense spending and invading other countries. And as the video already pointed out. We don't see Republicans sticking to their conservative "principles" and refusing Medicare/Medicaid when they need it....only when other people need it. So stop being such a hypocrite.


Most of the costs are borne by people who are retired, so I fail to see how borrowing trillions we don't have on life prolongation does anything but doom the future to crushing taxes and inflation for something the present desired but weren't productive enough to pay for. You can't do that, it's not fair, and many young people are waking up to the fact that this essentially a generational ponzi scheme with nothing in it for them. The first SS recipient contributed well below what she received and the final one will have paid in far more than they will receive in benefits. SS and Medicare, by their end, will have impoverished more people than any government programs in the history of mankind. Every naive socialist program is a sentimental black hole that accomplishes the opposite of what it intends. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, for example, made it easier to get a loan, but in doing so increased the price of homes and thus the size of the loan. Because suddenly you've got this "magic bottomless guarantee" to print up a loan, and now you've got damn near everyone seemingly capable of bidding up the prices. Of course, now we realize it wasn't bottomless after all, it just seemed that way for a while.

You've successfully convinced me that you really, really want health care at some future untold person's expense. The populace as a whole is resisting taxes. Their money has been devalued so thoroughly that they can't budget in broad tax increases today, so what makes you think the future can? It's also true that employers are not poor people. We've had nothing but more and more government involvement in this sector and, just like education, the costs have risen with how much the government is able to tax and borrow. I used to work for an online college called Kaplan. Kaplan's price IS what the government takes and loans. Why would they price below that? You just don't seem to understand how markets work. Look at something like LASIK and PRK aren't covered by private or public insurers. It's had nothing but price declines and quality improvements. Look at computers, constant price declines and quality improvements. When people are forced to spend their own money, the fear and greed offset works. When they're spending a pool of forcibly appropriated funds, they lose sight of its true cost to them and the future and become reckless.

Oh, and I'm not a Republican in favor of military adventures. I sympathize less with that nonsense than I do with you. I understand that public roads are of lower quality than toll roads, but I'd rather we bear that cost for the simplicity of not having to dick with toll booths. Everything governmental has that dynamic, but I say the government should be completely disallowed from borrowing in excess of revenue. If you want something now, pay for it now, the end. If you can't raise the revenue, don't cry about it and don't steal from the future.

And yes, demands are infinite. Austrian economics 101. You offer someone everything on earth for $100, they'll probably take it. Problem is, supply ISNT infinite, so the price will never be that low. If you found some way of making planets full of shit cheap and abundant, you'd see that demand is indeed infinite.

Here's what I find hilarious about people trying to make arguments against Social Security or Medicare using simplistic methods without considering all the ramifications of the policies and programs they rail against.

Social Security and Medicare don't just benefit seniors. Both programs create a market for goods and services consumed by seniors. And just who exactly will be producing the goods and services seniors will be purchasing using Social Security and Medicare? The young! That provides the young job opportunities and increased compensation since demand for labor to produce these goods and services is higher. Best of all, most seniors are not competing for these jobs because they're typically retired.

>> ^BansheeX:

What I find weird about liberals is that... Medicare and Medicaid is about life prolongation. How much are you willing to transfer from the young to the old? That is the question because that is how these programs are paid for, not by the recipients, but by immediate transfers. So far, the answer is essentially "everything" since there is at least 50 trillion in unfunded promises that will be paid by future taxes or inflation.
It's a nice sentiment, it wins a lot of votes, but you can only prolong life by reducing its quality among the young. Draw a line somewhere.
Oh, and didn't the post office just announce they're like 3 billion underfunded? The employees voted themselves nice pensions based on future revenue that can't possibly exist. And rather than cut the pensions, they want to just work a 4 day week. Pretty soon, it'll be a 3-day work week for the same wage. Pretty sweet deal if you're a USPS employee, pretty awful deal if you're a citizen who just wants their fucking MAIL.

>> ^VoodooV:

What planet are you from Banshee? Republicans make false accusations about the health care reforms having death panels....now you're advocating them?
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Republicans have no fucking clue what they're for. The only thing they know is that they'll take the opposite stance of whatever a Democrat wants.
I'm waiting for Obama to openly support trickle down economics just so I can watch the Reps head explode.


How can you not understand what I'm saying? Demand for health care is unlimited. Every person has to decide how much money they want to sock away for a future problem afflicting them. It is a balance between quality of life and length of life. People make those kinds of decisions already with the quantity of children they have. Each child causes an additional divide from the same pot. But you can't make those kinds of decisions with OTHER people's money, because you will take everything and more. Eventually, it gets to the point where no one wants to produce in such amounts that would reduce their benefit relative to their burden. And if the majority are consuming more than they're producing, where do the funds come from to consume in the first place? Net destruction ends in nothingness, a currency so worthless you can scarcely afford anything. But hey, it works for a while.

Payroll taxes for Medicare and SS go straight into the general fund and the government annually spends in excess of the fund by borrowing at interest. The interest payments alone are becoming massive burdens.

>> ^TangledThorns:

Ohh poor liberals getting their ass kicked by the American people? Boo hoo, no failed socialism for you. Sorry liberals, try doing things for yourself for once.


Awesome, we are getting more conservatard trolls on the site.

>> ^VoodooV:

>> ^ChaosEngine:
>> ^BansheeX:
What I find weird about liberals is that... Medicare and Medicaid is about life prolongation. How much are you willing to transfer from the young to the old? That is the question because that is how these programs are paid for, not by the recipients, but by immediate transfers.

Gee, I dunno. Call me a socialist, but I think if you pay taxes your entire working life, you're entitled to some fucking medical care in your old age. Nah, you're right. What we need are death panels for old people!! Hang on, don't liberals want them too? Those sneaky liberals. They want to kill granny and pay for her medical expenses at the same time!!

Standard Schizophrenic Christian Conservative mentality: protect a person at all cost when they're in the womb, tell them to go to hell once they're out.


"If you're pre-born, you're fine. If you're pre-school... you're fucked!"

>> ^ChaosEngine:

>> ^BansheeX:
What I find weird about liberals is that... Medicare and Medicaid is about life prolongation. How much are you willing to transfer from the young to the old? That is the question because that is how these programs are paid for, not by the recipients, but by immediate transfers.

Gee, I dunno. Call me a socialist, but I think if you pay taxes your entire working life, you're entitled to some fucking medical care in your old age. Nah, you're right. What we need are death panels for old people!! Hang on, don't liberals want them too? Those sneaky liberals. They want to kill granny and pay for her medical expenses at the same time!!


Standard Schizophrenic Christian Conservative mentality: protect a person at all cost when they're in the womb, tell them to go to hell once they're out.

lolololol

In reply to this comment by Ryjkyj:
>> ^Seric:

It makes me sad that the majority of politics is a bitch-fest where people genuinely get angry with each other, slinging mud at 'the other choice' saying how they've fucked up, how shit they are - rather than directly addressing issues or discussing sensibly what is the best logical solution to whatever problem has arisen...
tl;dr
The world of politics is full of turds, it simply doesn't have enough people who are in it to make their country genuinely better.


Fuck YOU!!!

>> ^Seric:

It makes me sad that the majority of politics is a bitch-fest where people genuinely get angry with each other, slinging mud at 'the other choice' saying how they've fucked up, how shit they are - rather than directly addressing issues or discussing sensibly what is the best logical solution to whatever problem has arisen...
tl;dr
The world of politics is full of turds, it simply doesn't have enough people who are in it to make their country genuinely better.


Fuck YOU!!!

>> ^BansheeX:

What I find weird about liberals is that... Medicare and Medicaid is about life prolongation. How much are you willing to transfer from the young to the old? That is the question because that is how these programs are paid for, not by the recipients, but by immediate transfers.


Gee, I dunno. Call me a socialist, but I think if you pay taxes your entire working life, you're entitled to some fucking medical care in your old age. Nah, you're right. What we need are death panels for old people!! Hang on, don't liberals want them too? Those sneaky liberals. They want to kill granny and pay for her medical expenses at the same time!!

>> ^quantumushroom:

Now that your tepid squirt gun of insults is sucking air, maybe you'd like some FACTS.
Medicare Fraud: A $60 Billion Crime

Poverty in America - based on US Census
Speaking of deluded "logic", is yours really 'If it doesn't happen to me, it doesn't happen anywhere.' ?????????????????????????????

>> ^VoodooV:
>> ^quantumushroom:
You gotta bunch of fatalist losers in the audience who believe life is a zero-sum game, that is, in order for one person to win, another must lose. Not one of them has the understanding that wealth is not finite slices of pie, the pie itself is getting larger all the time.
America's "poor" are the wealthiest poor in the world. Most own their own homes, have two cars, air-conditioning, 2 computers, 3 TVs, etc. And that's on top of "free" food and health care.
I'm not so cavalier as to believe losing 60 billion dollars EVERY YEAR to fraud, waste and abuse means nothing, but it really highlights the liberal mindset. When you're taking someone else's money at gunpoint, you really don't care how hard they had to work to earn it.

Like Spitzer said to Kibbe, "You're so wrong on so much of that I don't know where to begin"
You're either incompetent, deliberately lying, or both.
Speaking for myself, by QM's deluded logic, I obviously don't live in America, because I don't even have HALF of what QM claims the poor have.
But that can't be....I'm a public employee, I should have 10 cars and 5 homes if that were true.



What's your point QM? As others have already said. Proving that there is fraud does nothing other than show that things need to be improved. But that's not what you want to do, you want to slash the budget. Slashing budgets doesn't fix fraud...fixing fraud fixes fraud. Pretty basic concept there. It's really quite disappointing. Conservatives cry all the time about how they want efficient government...but they have some pretty inefficient ways to do it.

As to your second link, nice try, but The Heritage Foundation is an obviously conservative movement and thus, obviously biased. But let's go simpler than that. You...and THF made the claim that the "poor" have their own home, have two cars, air conditioning, two computers and 3 TVs. Fortunately, I qualified MY remarks with "Anecdotally" You do know what that word means right, QM? I know it's a big word and conservatives don't like big words, you like manipulating issues with sound bites, I know, but you guys hate big words. So I never claimed that my experiences speak for everyone. So nice try at a strawman, but QM fails again.

But more to the point. THF is full of shit, or their definition of poor is way the heck off or poor compared to Beverly Hills or something . While I do have air conditioning, I rent, I certainly don't have two cars, I certainly don't have two computers or three TVs and I know I'm doing FAR better than most of the people I work with. And again, I work in State Gov't and contrary to your marching orders from Fox News, we don't make a whole hell of a lot. So if, according to THF, I'm apparently lower than poor, but wait, I'm doing better than most of my peers, so they have to be even lower than the lowest of the poor...so again, either THF is incompetent, or much more likely, since THF is clearly a conservative, thus biased, organization, they are either exaggerating, or outright lying.

You clearly don't know what poor is, QM. You lose...again.

Troll elsewhere

Now that your tepid squirt gun of insults is sucking air, maybe you'd like some FACTS.

Medicare Fraud: A $60 Billion Crime

Poverty in America - based on US Census

Speaking of deluded "logic", is yours really 'If it doesn't happen to me, it doesn't happen anywhere.' ?????????????????????????????



>> ^VoodooV:

>> ^quantumushroom:
You gotta bunch of fatalist losers in the audience who believe life is a zero-sum game, that is, in order for one person to win, another must lose. Not one of them has the understanding that wealth is not finite slices of pie, the pie itself is getting larger all the time.
America's "poor" are the wealthiest poor in the world. Most own their own homes, have two cars, air-conditioning, 2 computers, 3 TVs, etc. And that's on top of "free" food and health care.
I'm not so cavalier as to believe losing 60 billion dollars EVERY YEAR to fraud, waste and abuse means nothing, but it really highlights the liberal mindset. When you're taking someone else's money at gunpoint, you really don't care how hard they had to work to earn it.

Like Spitzer said to Kibbe, "You're so wrong on so much of that I don't know where to begin"
You're either incompetent, deliberately lying, or both.
Speaking for myself, by QM's deluded logic, I obviously don't live in America, because I don't even have HALF of what QM claims the poor have.
But that can't be....I'm a public employee, I should have 10 cars and 5 homes if that were true.

>> ^quantumushroom:

You gotta bunch of fatalist losers in the audience who believe life is a zero-sum game, that is, in order for one person to win, another must lose. Not one of them has the understanding that wealth is not finite slices of pie, the pie itself is getting larger all the time.
America's "poor" are the wealthiest poor in the world. Most own their own homes, have two cars, air-conditioning, 2 computers, 3 TVs, etc. And that's on top of "free" food and health care.
I'm not so cavalier as to believe losing 60 billion dollars EVERY YEAR to fraud, waste and abuse means nothing, but it really highlights the liberal mindset. When you're taking someone else's money at gunpoint, you really don't care how hard they had to work to earn it.


The top one percent have been getting wealthier and wealthier for the last 25 years. You're seeing the results right now. You're seeing the tail end of a failed social experiment. You're just reading it backwards.

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:

...I could go on, but on the issue of socialism far too many neolibs just don't get it. It's their religion...


You guys keep throwing that "socialism-as-religion" thing out there. What I don't get is that socialism is quite clearly one of, if not the founding tenet of Christianity.

>> ^dag:

I think you need to substitute "loses" for "uses to provide a valuable service"
>> ^lantern53:
Medicare is efficient? it loses $60B a year.
If socialism worked, the US would be hip-deep in gold toilet seats.



What doesn't follow under that heading, really.