>> ^Yogi:

I know that leaving wouldn't be a perfect option however it's still the only option. Many many more people will die if we stay. We went through the same thing in Vietnam when people thought we should stay, it's wrong and we shouldn't. Although there will probably be some horrific deaths, there will be thousands more if we stay. We must leave.

To be honest, I'm beginning to think more and more that it's your mess, and your responsibility to fix it. Going into Afghanistan was just as ridiculous as going into Iraq. What were the odds that a slow, advancing military force was going to seriously disrupt a fluid cross-national terrorist organisation, let alone catch a single terrorist in its dragnet? Yes, the Taliban openly sponsored Al Qaeda but this doesn't change the fact there is no shortage of decrepit states and governments to which terrorist organisations can relocate like Somalia. It was obvious that if going in the objective was to topple a government, nation building would follow.

Yes, the US has a massive budget deficit and is in no position to fund wars, but equally I don't think you can morally justify bailing and seeing the people who trusted in your willingness to establish a semblance of a functioning state with human rights be rounded up and executed. Biden's plan of leaving a limited force to target terrorist activities will simply not be enough to prevent this. While the kind of parliamentary/ presidential democracy they're going for really has little chance of working because of the lack of pan-national trust and how dependant the political system is on patronage, I think a more decentralised model has a chance, and that's really what I think they should be aiming for.

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:

So - what happens when 'the group' decides what 'the individual' wants is unacceptable? And what happens when 'the individual' tells 'the group' to cram it sideways with walnuts? And by what moral system are these decisions measured?

That's the age-old question of politics.

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:
I know that the neolib left has long engaged in a mastubatory fantasy that somehow hippies were 'wise'. The reality is that hippies were just rebellous baby boomers who wanted meaning in their lives, but at the same time rejected the values of the previous generation.
Here is a little clip from Dragnet that everyone who thinks hippies were 'cool' should see.
http://
www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZo2hhvvlpw&feature=PlayList&p=11559F2B8F7E2A4B&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=25


It's kinda funny, that clip basically says nothing to support your argument. The upshot wasn't "shut up you fucking spoiled children", it was "don't give up your passion, but don't expect to win overnight, and don't try to start a revolution because you're impatient".

That speech applies a lot better to the modern-day teabaggers than it ever did to actual (non-strawman) hippies.

PS: For the millionth time, neoliberal doesn't mean what you want it to mean!

It will have to allow for individuals to make important decisions with the consent of the group -- as the group will need to realize that every individual choice is important, but it can't forsake an individual's right without circumstance. This issue is decided by both the individual and the group to have the same value/decision.

So - what happens when 'the group' decides what 'the individual' wants is unacceptable? And what happens when 'the individual' tells 'the group' to cram it sideways with walnuts? And by what moral system are these decisions measured?

I know that the neolib left has long engaged in a mastubatory fantasy that somehow hippies were 'wise'. The reality is that hippies were just rebellous baby boomers who wanted meaning in their lives, but at the same time rejected the values of the previous generation.

Here is a little clip from Dragnet that everyone who thinks hippies were 'cool' should see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZo2hhvvlpw&feature=PlayList&p=11559F2B8F7E2A4B&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=25

Wasted and wounded, it ain't what the moon did
I've got what I paid for now
see ya tomorrow, hey Frank, can I borrow
a couple of bucks from you, to go
Waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda, you'll go waltzing
Matilda with me

I'm an innocent victim of a blinded alley
and I'm tired of all these soldiers here
no one speaks English, and everything's broken
and my Stacys are soaking wet
to go waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda, you'll go waltzing Matilda with me

now the dogs are barking
and the taxi cab's parking
a lot they can do for me
I begged you to stab me
you tore my shirt open
and I'm down on my knees tonight
Old Bushmill's I staggered, you buried the dagger in
your silhouette window light to go
waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda, you'll go waltzing
Matilda with me

now I lost my Saint Christopher now that I've kissed her and the one-armed bandit knows, and the maverick Chinamen, and the cold-blooded signs
and the girls down by the strip-tease shows go
waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda, you'll go waltzing Matilda with me

no, I don't want your sympathy, the fugitives say that the streets aren't for dreaming now
manslaughter dragnets and the ghosts that sell memories
they want a piece of the action anyhow go
waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda, you'll go waltzing Matilda with me

and you can ask any sailor, and the keys from the jailor
and the old men in wheelchairs know
that Matilda's the defendant, she killed about a hundred
and she follows wherever you may go
waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda, you'll go waltzing
Matilda with me

and it's a battered old suitcase to a hotel someplace
and a wound that will never heal
no prima donna, the perfume is on
an old shirt that is stained with blood and whiskey
and goodnight to the street sweepers
the night watchman flame keepers
and goodnight to Matilda too

Wasted and wounded, it ain't what the moon did
I've got what I paid for now
see ya tomorrow, hey Frank, can I borrow
a couple of bucks from you, to go
Waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda, you'll go waltzing
Matilda with me

I'm an innocent victim of a blinded alley
and I'm tired of all these soldiers here
no one speaks English, and everything's broken
and my Stacys are soaking wet
to go waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda, you'll go waltzing Matilda with me

now the dogs are barking
and the taxi cab's parking
a lot they can do for me
I begged you to stab me
you tore my shirt open
and I'm down on my knees tonight
Old Bushmill's I staggered, you buried the dagger in
your silhouette window light to go
waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda, you'll go waltzing
Matilda with me

now I lost my Saint Christopher now that I've kissed her and the one-armed bandit knows, and the maverick Chinamen, and the cold-blooded signs
and the girls down by the strip-tease shows go
waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda, you'll go waltzing Matilda with me

no, I don't want your sympathy, the fugitives say that the streets aren't for dreaming now
manslaughter dragnets and the ghosts that sell memories
they want a piece of the action anyhow go
waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda, you'll go waltzing Matilda with me

and you can ask any sailor, and the keys from the jailor
and the old men in wheelchairs know
that Matilda's the defendant, she killed about a hundred
and she follows wherever you may go
waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda, you'll go waltzing
Matilda with me

and it's a battered old suitcase to a hotel someplace
and a wound that will never heal
no prima donna, the perfume is on
an old shirt that is stained with blood and whiskey
and goodnight to the street sweepers
the night watchman flame keepers
and goodnight to Matilda too

Yah, Pilger is right on target. As long as Obama makes people smug and content. The harsh reality isn't useful to those in a dreamlike Obama rapture. Obama > thinking.

I guess you could point to Obama's political platform before he was President, you could say he had only the best intentions, however I fail to draw that fine a line.

I mean, he's following George Bush's plan to get us outta Iraq, and he's getting deeper into Afghanistan. The dragnet wiretapping still stands, etc. WHERE'S THIS HOPE STUFF? IS IT HIDING IN A WHITE HOUSE CLOSET?
Ultraconservative Israelis hate Obama, I must give him credit for that. I think.

Here's another clip that shows how Obama is opposed to anything the medical industrial complex doesn't want.

watch at 2:35 seconds, "the intentions of the white house are to please the insurance companies...moveing more and more away from pleaseing people to pleasing insurance companies."

SOMEONE SAYS "IS THIS OKAY" YOU SAY?
Green Pastures (Emmylou Harris)

WHAT WOULD BEST DESCRIBE YOUR PERSONALITY?
Iron Storm (Black Uhuru)

WHAT DO YOU LIKE IN A GUY/GIRL?
Love And Marriage (Frank Sinatra)

HOW DO YOU FEEL TODAY?
Backslidin' Blues (The Del McCroury Band)

WHAT IS YOUR LIFE'S PURPOSE?
Elephant Ride (State of Bengal)

WHAT IS YOUR MOTTO?
Deeper Love (? - Some loungy tune)

WHAT DO YOUR FRIENDS THINK OF YOU?
Wharf Rat (Grateful Dead)

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF YOUR PARENTS?
Let It Whip (Dazz Band)

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT VERY OFTEN?
Dark Sneak Love Action (Tom Tom Club)

WHAT IS 2+2?
In The Bath (Lemonjelly)

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF YOUR BEST FRIEND?
Warning Shots (Thievery Corporation)

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE PERSON YOU LIKE?
Cannonball (The Breeders)

WHAT IS YOUR LIFE STORY?
Drinking Muddy Water (North Mississippi Allstars)

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO BE WHEN YOU GROW UP?
Irresistible Bitch (Prince)

WHAT DO YOU THINK WHEN YOU SEE THE PERSON YOU LIKE?
She's Not For You (Willie Nelson)

WHAT DO YOUR PARENTS THINK OF YOU?
A Life In The Day Of Benjamin Andre (Andre 3000)

WHAT WILL YOU DANCE TO AT YOUR WEDDING?
Red Angel Dragnet (The Clash)

WHAT WILL THEY PLAY AT YOUR FUNERAL?
Bertha (Grateful Dead)

WHAT IS YOUR HOBBY/INTEREST?
Mbolo (Baaba Maal)

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF YOUR FRIENDS?
Cakewalk Into Town (Taj Mahal)

WHATS THE WORST THING THAT COULD HAPPEN?
Ache'n For Acres (Arrested Development)

HOW WILL YOU DIE?
Fire (Jimi Hendrix)

WHAT IS THE ONE THING YOU REGRET?
Control (James Brown)

WHAT MAKES YOU LAUGH?
Beat Biscuit Blues (Mike Auldridge, Bob Brozman, David Grisman)

WHAT MAKES YOU CRY?
The Rocky Road To Dublin (The Chieftans)

WILL YOU EVER GET MARRIED?
Hand On The Pump (Cypress Hill)

WHAT SCARES YOU THE MOST?
Taxman (Greyboy Allstars covering The Beatles)

DOES ANYONE LIKE YOU?
Leaky Faucet Skank (Sad Rockets)

IF YOU COULD GO BACK IN TIME, WHAT WOULD YOU CHANGE?
One Nation Under A Groove (Funkadelic)

WHAT HURTS RIGHT NOW?
The End (The Doors)

>> ^Razor:
One of my favourite shows when I was little, especially the skits with the detectives =) Upvote! Oh, and Mathman!!!


Mathnet (Dragnet name). I watched it too.

No, it's "Red Angel Dragnet." Although, the deep-voiced dude in "Ghetto Defendant" is none other than Allen Ginsberg, warrior poet of "Howl" fame. Shuac = Big Clash Fan

Awesome movie, better than Dragnet I think

AT&T whistleblower Mark Klein to Senate: "they’re doing a huge, massive domestic dragnet on everybody in the United States"

http://www.correntewire.com/at_t_whistleblower_mark_klein_to_senate_they_re_doing_a_huge_massive_domestic_dragnet_on_everybody_in_the_united_states

AT&T Whistleblower: Telecom Immunity Is A Cover-Up

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004662.php

Art of Noise included portions of its other songs in this one. When Tome Jones says “Think I better dance now” there is some music from “Close to the Edit,” “Dragnet” (their version) and “Peter Gun” (their version).

Wikipedia says that this video won an MTV groundbreaking award in 1989.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTV_Video_Music_Award_-_Breakthrough_Video

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_Noise

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Jones_%28singer%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_%28song%29