Random observation two was surprising. I smell top fifteen for this one.

I hate to say it, but there is no way in hell to discusss Palestinian terrorism without addressing the odious conditions that they are forced to live in by Israel.

You can't treat people like animals for three or four generations and expect them to behave in any other manner.

I was going to make a Sideshow Bob joke, but he makes a good point.

cosmic. malcolm gladwells genius, as well as his 'fro, have been haunting my dreams for about week now. which leads me to conclude that his genius and the size of his righteous 'fro are directly proportional. using mathmatics to analyze history and history to analyze the present and the present to analyze the future makes me extremely happy. and also extremely irritated that math and history have been bastardized by public education. and that infact, history was introduced into public education under completely bastardized pretenses.... adlfjadslkjfaldskj!

I think...I think its pretty important to look at the types of groups that where committing acts of terror in the 60s-70s. They seem to be groups with an intellectual doctrine, or anti-doctrine. And that kind of terrorist has well and truely faded away. I know I was surprised to hear about all the domestic American terrorists (there was that famous dozen or so who kidnapped some pretty famous girl and brainwashed her using psychological/physical abuse to the point she killed - or at least fired upon cops or something to protect them). Point being, these groups where part of a global, intellectually motivated, violent backlash . A sort of a grass roots, "fuck the man" type deal. And they ran out of steam, especially in capitalist where the Yuppie well and truely killed them, for a few decades at least.

However not all of the terrorists movements died in the 80s. I dont think it would not be controversial to say Spain's terrorists share some of the "dna" of todays most prominent groups: religious zealotry, history of war, etc. And its worth noting that Spain's terrorists are still active and a problem to this day.

What we have left, is the hard core - faith-based terrorists. And to many in the Muslim section of the global village - the USA has been a visible and compelling antagonist.

I dont think the effect of the "terrorist incidents" increases BECAUSE we crack down on it. Infact I would not even call them "terrorists" - they are "religious warriors" whose sights have been set more and more on the USA (and co.). I think the increased severity due to increasing commonality of hatred directed at the USA, and the fact that the people who are planning and carrying out the attacks are hardened warriors with dehumanising religious motivations.

>> ^Raaagh:
I think the increased severity due to increasing commonality of hatred directed at the USA, and the fact that the people who are planning and carrying out the attacks are hardened warriors with dehumanising religious motivations.


What do you think is causing that hatred?

>> ^rougy:
>> ^Raaagh:
I think the increased severity due to increasing commonality of hatred directed at the USA, and the fact that the people who are planning and carrying out the attacks are hardened warriors with dehumanising religious motivations.

What do you think is causing that hatred?


this is an interesting question. i asked a good friend of mine who studies islam and the middle east and has spent alot of time in the region..
"what do they want?"
his answer was about how at one time there was the persian empire, the ottoman empire, the arab world was rich in trade, philosophy, intellect, cultural and a serious world power. now, they live in caves and squalor. his answer was they just dont want to be poor anymore. most of them are illiterate, desperate and highly religious. so.. they cant actually read the qaran, but someone who can comes to the village and tells them what it says. or what his interpretation would be. and basically tells an entire village of otherwise ignorant people that they once were kings and now they live in squalor and they live in squalor because of oppression and the perversion of the western world. the exports of western culture to the middle east are brittany spears and lindsay lohan which is highly offensive in its own right, but especially offensive if youre highly religious and live in poverty. you cant blame anyone for seeing that and thinking we are all pigs. you add what they see of our culture and what they see from our leaders. they see we side with israel and most of us are completely ignorant to the details of the conflict, they see we side with india, another conflict we are ignorant of... they also have an excellent propaganda machine and we give them plenty to hate. but basically they just dont want to be poor anymore, blame the us, and are told the qaran demands jihad and that jihad will restore their people to glory.

also, another aspect that makes these ideas spread like wild fire through islamic cultures is that islam has no religous hierarchy. there is no one authority that says "this is what we think about this" or "no, blowing ourselves up wont solve anything"

^ All of those things come into play, I'm sure.

To me, the obvious rub is not religious but regional.

When western powers start leaving the Middle East alone, the Middle East will have less reason to "terrorize" the West.

Almost all of the so-called terrorists in Iraq aren't out to destroy America, they are out to remove the American occupation from their homeland.

We must try to imagine our roles reversed. Imagine your city or town controlled by Iraqi soldiers who suspected you of murder and neither understood, nor really cared to understand, your language or culture.

Random Observations pertaining to 9/11 by Malcolm Gladwell Daniel Pearl.

islamofacism must die for the civilized world to survive.

>> ^quantumushroom:
Random Observations pertaining to 9/11 by Malcolm Gladwell Daniel Pearl.
islamofacism must die for the civilized world to survive.


man, you're not even trying

it's not that they're increasing in severity, it's that those that are seriously planned will be the ones that will be successful. there are other factors, but them getting more and more severe (somehow exponentially) isn't one of them - that's unfounded.

>> ^rougy:
^ All of those things come into play, I'm sure.
To me, the obvious rub is not religious but regional.
When western powers start leaving the Middle East alone, the Middle East will have less reason to "terrorize" the West.
Almost all of the so-called terrorists in Iraq aren't out to destroy America, they are out to remove the American occupation from their homeland.
We must try to imagine our roles reversed. Imagine your city or town controlled by Iraqi soldiers who suspected you of murder and neither understood, nor really cared to understand, your language or culture.

I think you're dead-on about the "terrorist insurgents" in Iraq.

And as to your supposition that it's regional as opposed to religious, I think you're pretty close to the truth there as well. You only have to look at peaceful Muslims of the western world to see that Islam isn't the source of terrorism, but rather a tool used by villains to exploit people into doing their dirty work. It's far easier to convince the faithful that they are giving their life for their god, rather than trying to convince them to do it because your US buddies screwed you over after you fought so hard to prevent the Russians from stealing their heroin harvest.

>> ^quantumushroom:
Random Observations pertaining to 9/11 by Malcolm Gladwell Daniel Pearl.
islamofacism must die for the civilized world to survive.

Replace "islamofacism" with "religious fanaticism", and I'll say you're on to something.

I had a bunch of random observations about Carrot Top, Sideshow Bob, and Yahoo Serious, then he started speaking... and I upvoted.

>> ^rougy:

When western powers start leaving the Middle East alone, the Middle East will have less reason to "terrorize" the West.
Almost all of the so-called terrorists in Iraq aren't out to destroy America, they are out to remove the American occupation from their homeland.
We must try to imagine our roles reversed. Imagine your city or town controlled by Iraqi soldiers who suspected you of murder and neither understood, nor really cared to understand, your language or culture.


absolutely.
but terrorism/jihad has been a tool long before we invaded iraq. infact iraqis were not really players in the terror game until we invaded. so yes, in the case of the insurgents in iraq, its certainly a "get the fuck out of our country you american pig". but outside of that and long before that its been a tool to exploit the poor to do the bidding of the fanatical. and its worldwide. like an al queda cell attacked a small fishing village in the phillipines (that my friends wife and baby live in) and decapitated 4 people about 2 months ago. ... and speaking of propaganda machines.. why dont we hear about this in the us?

but you are right, we need to get of their country, rethink our position on israel, denounce the war on terror as an excuse for abuse after extensive abuse, and focus our efforts towards a war on poverty... or maybe not a war... maybe a... "poverty conflict" or... "military social agenda"? .. ah fuck it.. wed just screw it up anyway.

i think the basic observation that if you increase security you increase danger is true. someone somewhere will always want to find a way around it.

especially if you shit on their country for years.

>> ^quantumushroom:
Random Observations pertaining to 9/11 by Malcolm Gladwell Daniel Pearl.
islamofacism must die for the civilized world to survive.


Hey, how about:
islamofacism Intellectually-retarded bigots must die for the civilized world to survive.

>> ^videosiftbannedme:
>> ^quantumushroom:
Random Observations pertaining to 9/11 by Malcolm Gladwell Daniel Pearl.
islamofacism must die for the civilized world to survive.

Hey, how about:
islamofacism Intellectually-retarded bigots must die for the civilized world to survive.


Hmm, how about:
Cultural relativists thinks we're all friends, until they get blown up while on holiday.

>> ^Smugglarn:
>> ^videosiftbannedme:
>>
; ^quantumushroom:
Random Observations pertaining to 9/11 by Malcolm Gladwell Daniel Pearl.
islamofacism must die for the civilized world to survive.

Hey, how about:
islamofacism Intellectually-retarded bigots must die for the civilized world to survive.

Hmm, how about:
Cultural relativists thinks we're all friends, until they get blown up while on holiday.


How about you stay out of my shit and Ill stay out of your shit? Sound fucking fair? Fine now get out of my headspace. <just adding to the crazy argument>

>> ^rougy:
I hate to say it, but there is no way in hell to discusss Palestinian terrorism without addressing the odious conditions that they are forced to live in by Israel.
You can't treat people like animals for three or four generations and expect them to behave in any other manner.


Agreed, but you need to go one step further. There is no way in hell to discuss the plight of the Palestinian people without addressing the policies of the surrounding Arab nations for the last 4 generations as well. Iran and Syria currently aid the Palestinians by training them to blow themselves up and giving them weapons and explosives with which to do so. Historically, Israel's aggressive foreign policy that is causing the Palestinian's troubles has resulted from a continual effort by their neighbors to annihilate them.

I read somewhere that a study had tracked acts of 'terror' by small groups for many years, and concluded that every one of them related to an occupation of some kind. Every one had a close relationship to an independence movement. It may not be the sole reason, or even necessarily the greatest motivator, but without the occupation the acts of terror would not have taken place. Occupation was the enabling or prerequisite factor.

Makes me wish I had the study handy.

A world without Islam would be a far more peaceful place. Other religions have had their rough patches and small scale catastrophes (most of them centuries ago) but only Islam, an inflexible, confrontational religion that craves revenge over forgiveness, still makes women second class citizens and was founded by a gigolo/warlord/pedophile (all true charges, so don't blame me) causes trouble wherever its followers gather in large numbers.

Muslims of all stripes, like the Soviets of old (and now new) seem to respect only brute force. We're celebrating diversity AND speaking their language when we threaten them with annihilation when their bad behavior persists.

I'd like Islam to evolve peacefully, but it's not going to happen, if history has anything to say about it.

It's going to take New York becoming Nuked York for moral and cultural relativists to wake up, and probably not even then.

Homeland security seems to be getting more and more like Digital Rights Managment every day. If someone wants to get through illegally, they will, and the people with valid reasons get screwed.

I guess the main difference is your average business traveller won't be blowing up anything other than his top after his security "experience".

It's official: 9/11 is the new El Niño.

>> ^bcglorf:

Agreed, but you need to go one step further. There is no way in hell to discuss the plight of the Palestinian people without addressing the policies of the surrounding Arab nations for the last 4 generations as well. Iran and Syria currently aid the Palestinians by training them to blow themselves up and giving them weapons and explosives with which to do so. Historically, Israel's aggressive foreign policy that is causing the Palestinian's troubles has resulted from a continual effort by their neighbors to annihilate them.


Yeah, they stole that land fair and square, right?

And they're still doing it, a little bit every day.

And they kill a few more Palestinians every day. But we never hear about that.

But when one of the Palestinians gets sick of the shit and attacks with bombs or rockets, it's all over the news.

Yeah, they stole that land fair and square, right?


That's either the most ignorant or racist remark that seems to be made by people about the issue.

When Palestine was still one country it had both a Jewish and Palestinian population. During the early part of the century, for some unknown reason, a lot of european jews relocated to live in Palestine. On the whole they were not treated as equals in Palestine either, but it was better than Europe. By the end of WW2 though the tensions in Palestine between the Jewish and Palestinian people was resulting in very ugly violence. When the UN mandated a 2 state solution of Israel and Palestine, the Israeli's declared independence and accepted those borders. The surrounding arab league declared war on the Israeli state and vowed to annihilate it. When that war was done, the Israeli's gained land beyond the UN mandated borders, and the rest of Palestine was divided up amongst the Arab countries. Even if you want to call that 'stealing fair and square', it's the neighboring Arab countries that stole the most land.

But by all means keep making ignorant one liner insults, that's far more effective at stirring up hatred than talking about the real world.


And they kill a few more Palestinians every day. But we never hear about that.

But when one of the Palestinians gets sick of the shit and attacks with bombs or rockets, it's all over the news.


Our media really doesn't seem to give one shit about people dying on either side. Though I agree networks like Fox aren't doing anyone any favors by covering only one side(when they can be bothered to cover it at all).

>> ^bcglorf:

That's either the most ignorant or racist remark that seems to be made by people about the issue.


I'm not surprised you said that.

I'm actually pro-Israel.

For some reason, some people equate any criticism with Israel, its actions or origins, with a certain form of racism.

You can't sugar coat it: millions of Palestinians who used to own land and live in that region no longer own the land and are living as expatriates or refugees.

They received zero recompense for their loss.

That is not a racist statement; it is a painful and obvious reality.

>> ^rougy:
>> ^bcglorf:
That's either the most ignorant or racist remark that seems to be made by people about the issue.

I'm not surprised you said that.
I'm actually pro-Israel.
For some reason, some people equate any criticism with Israel, its actions or origins, with a certain form of racism.
You can't sugar coat it: millions of Palestinians who used to own land and live in that region no longer own the land and are living as expatriates or refugees.
They received zero recompense for their loss.
That is not a racist statement; it is a painful and obvious reality.


And before you said:
Yeah, they stole that land fair and square, right?

Sounds really pro-Israel there now doesn't it? Did you even read my post? All the 'occupied' territories where originally 'stolen' by Arab countries in 1948 through an effort to destroy Israel. They never gave the land back to the Palestinian people, they instead used it to launch attacks on Israel in new attempts to eliminate it. As a result of Israel winning many of those wars they took control of much of that land themselves. Solely laying the blame for the Palestinian plight on Israel is ignorant or racist and I stand by that.

As for Israel keeping Palestinian land, Israel has removed all it's forces from Gaza(unilaterally). Just this week Israeli soldiers forcefully removed jewish settlers from the West Bank. Unless the land you refer to is within Israel's own borders, Israel has made many efforts to return the occupied lands to the control of the Palestinian people. They could do more, but groups like Hamas and Hezbollah and surrounding countries like Syria and Lebanon could all be doing a lot more as well. Solely blaming Israel is ignoring all the other problems of a very complicated situation.

Many are also keen to point out how cruel it is for Israel to close it's borders with regions like Gaza because the people require aid that comes through them to survive. They are so busy blaming Israel for that, they forgot that some credit should be given to Israel when the borders are open since the largest single source for that aid is Israel itself.

Well, the hell with you, then.

I can criticize China's treatment of Tibet and nobody says I hate Chinese.

I could criticize South Africa's apartheid and nobody says I hate South Africans.

I criticize Israel for being a major reason why the Palestinians behave like they do, and now I'm a racist.

Fuck you.

>> ^rougy:
Well, the hell with you, then.
I can criticize China's treatment of Tibet and nobody says I hate Chinese.
I could criticize South Africa's apartheid and nobody says I hate South Africans.
I criticize Israel for being a major reason why the Palestinians behave like they do, and now I'm a racist.
Fuck you.


Slow down there with your outrage.

When your first post stated:

I hate to say it, but there is no way in hell to discusss Palestinian terrorism without addressing the odious conditions that they are forced to live in by Israel.

You can't treat people like animals for three or four generations and expect them to behave in any other manner.


I AGREED with you stating:

Agreed, but you need to go one step further. There is no way in hell to discuss the plight of the Palestinian people without addressing the policies of the surrounding Arab nations for the last 4 generations as well.


I never denied that Israeli policy is a major reason Palestinians behave like they do, I agreed that was right. I just went on to say there was even more to it than just Israel's policies, to which you replied:

Yeah, they stole that land fair and square, right?


I called that remark EITHER ignorant or racist, not both. To simply accuse Israel of stealing land from the Palestinians requires ignorance of the regions history OR a willingness to ignore the details of history and flatly accuse Israel anyways which I consider to be racist.

Your main point on Israel policy at best antagonizing the situation is right and I agree on it, I just went a step further in pointing out there is much more blame to go around as well.