Williams James wrote about the value of religious experience. It tries to reconcile the disparity between reason and spirituality. This is the "code" that Penn is talking about. It does imply relativism over objectivism which does not gel with people of Penn's rationalistic ilk. His intuitions simply don't allow him to have these kind of contradictions whereas religious people do and also do not see them as contradictions hence their intuitions allow for a kind of dualism between the domain of the rational and the domain of religion. The people in the court are not admitting to the fallibility of their religious beliefs yet also denying the possibility of those same beliefs manifesting in such an obvious and concrete way. So they are at peace with being able to both affirm and deny the factual nature of their metaphysical beliefs without causing disharmony provided the transgression sufficiently big or small. Put it into the realm of the civic where personal gain or other self-serving and un-"virtuous" traits can be attributed and they can happily suspend their metaphysics in favour of the rational that Penn is able to apply to all situations.

It is a kind of metaphysical schizophrenia.

Religion, at it core, is the most successful business model in the history of humankind.

Oh, come on. Most people in church are there as a part of tradition. I went to church for eighteen years and then when given the opportunity I ran far, far away. I hate stupid fucking American traditions that includes family gatherings at Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving all of it, its all fucking stupid, fuck it all.

But, many people find solidarity and comfort through keeping traditions, it doesn't matter if they think about or agree with the sermon because after the sermon donuts will be served. Id rather stand for the actual truth and be shoved into a police car because of it.

I disagree with Penn, when he says Mormonism isn't crazier, just more modern.

It absolutely IS crazier. The founder of Mormonism is someone who we know (because there are official, historical records, from a time when these records were already pretty believable) was a convicted con man. And he stuck his head in a hat to decode ancient tablets which, by the way, he was the only one to have seen.

Mormonism is one of the stupidest religions around. Period.

Just like Scientology

If only someone were here to play devil's advocate (heh) and supply a bit of biblical scripture...

(Let's see if the beetlejuice effect works)

shinyblurry
shinyblurry
shinyblurry!

http://videosift.com/video/Witch-hunt-scene-from-Monty-Python-and-the-Holy-Grail>> ^Kofi:

The people in the court are not admitting to the fallibility of their religious beliefs yet also denying the possibility of those same beliefs manifesting in such an obvious and concrete way.

As a rationalist and an atheist the thing that brought me closer to understanding those people was Orson's Scott Card sci-fi novel "Xenocide".

I do not want write a plot summary - but a mentality of such a believer is demonstrated:
One of the characters, who is a huge believer in gods of the planet, when faced with evidence that those gods do not exist, is still able to interpret this message, as a test from gods to see if she stays a true believer. So even a disproof is a proof...

>> ^EMPIRE:

I disagree with Penn, when he says Mormonism isn't crazier, just more modern.
It absolutely IS crazier. The founder of Mormonism is someone who we know (because there are official, historical records, from a time when these records were already pretty believable) was a convicted con man. And he stuck his head in a hat to decode ancient tablets which, by the way, he was the only one to have seen.
Mormonism is one of the stupidest religions around. Period.
Just like Scientology


At least Mormonism is still a Christian religion. Sure, they are more like Christians: the director's cut with additional footage never before seen and the core tenants of the religion are based on a delusional con-man's fantasies, but they are still, at the core, a Christian religion.

I do have to give Mormons credit for their family support, charities, and their ability to take care of their members in need. They have a fantastic family support group. When the shit hits the fan and the world ends, Mormons will be the last few people standing.

I am an atheist as they get, but as an organization, Mormons do some pretty great things for the community. Scientology, on the other hand, is a scary cult that needs to be destroyed.

I know Penn is making a fine argument, but magic underpants aside: ALL religion is just like this. Mormons are NOT special here, but maybe they make it easier to see sometimes.

It is not made for those that are intellectually honest nor intellectually curious to a fault.

It is the truth of this world and moreover the truth withing our psychology, a truly terrifying notion to any religion believer that EVER happens to fully understand the mind. Your mind can act very much like a paradox, in this, it allows for the most immense blockades to be made so that no one, not even themselves can truly ever tell themselves the truth--EVEN IF in front of them. Because, as one thing is absolutely certain: humans are driven by fear.

ONLY those that have conquered fear truly acknowledge the world as it is, though they do STILL fear, but they fear things that are logical, like losing loved ones or becoming a victim of intellectual deception yourself...

Mormonism seems cosmetically more ridiculous because it's new: we know miracles and magic didn't happen within the last couple of centuries; it only happens an inteterminate period of time so long ago that any real verification is impossible. Obviously. God prefers obfuscation, so he never shows up anymore for fear of some miracle or magic being captured on someone's cellphone and giving people a better reason to believe than "some guy said so."

Penn already knows the answer to his own question about why. But he can't answer it to others because the saying 'the truth will set you free' is a lie.

Mormonism is an interesting religion. The founding fathers of America were hoping that an utopian state could be born out of having a new beginning: they were able to break the shackles of imperailism, and with winning the war with the south, was able to attempt to become a democratic society where all people were treated equal. For its time, the ideas were very progressive. The only thing that was missing was a belief system that was born from this unique product: the religion was inherent still from the English.

About 60 years later, mormonism would fill that gap: it believed that America was the centre of the world religion; and it explained the values of its society. At that time, the Rosetta Stone was found and was early translated, and there was an egyptian revival period going on at that time.

Being able to combine freemasonry ideals (Especially ties between the Knights/Order of Malta), it would have been the ideal time to attempt to unite a nation under one religious banner.

@def -- interesting that Orson Scott Card is the author of your understanding, since he is a deeply faithful Mormon who built many of his novels on Mormon myths. (Ender's Game, my brother tells me, is taken almost directly from Mormon stories.)

My brother converted to Mormonism in his early 20s. Wasn't raised in a church. Aerospace engineer, military pilot. You would think he would be immune.

I'll never forget him telling me -- once, never to be repeated -- that the church was telling him to believe things that were tough to accept, but he "chose to have faith."

That's it in a nutshell. You trade rationality for the other benefits, as others have noted here.

I agree that religion has a business side (what doesn't?) but it has also preserved civilizations for thousands of years.

If there is such a thing as Enlightened Atheism, it can make light of superstition but also recognize religion's historical importance to the survival of the State, and by proxy, the indivdual.

And the last 2 minutes of this is Comedy RHODIUM.


>> ^criticalthud:

Religion, at it core, is the most successful business model in the history of humankind.