I quit the final fantasy series as soon as moved to the playstation. Just like Peter Griffin's critique on the Godfather, the Playstation series insists on itself. Too many cut scenes, the game play piled on unnessary battle elements, the story lines and characters acted like clingy, needy, insecure relationships, that you knew weren't going anywere when you started them.

Most of all, I really liked the Jrpg's battles. There was an element of thought that was needed in order to be successful. It has since mutated into a very bland, almost mortal combat style of predictability.


Granted I have only played the first playstation FF, but having watched my friends play from time to time was enough to convince me that I will never enjoy another FF game.

^You have to say that faster, with no punctuation and use more curse words.

Hmmm, at least someone confirms why I don't play any Final Fantasy games.

final fantasy 6 was awesome!! I still pull out an emulator every now and then to replay it

>> ^rottenseed:
^You have to say that faster, with no punctuation and use more curse words.


Ok got it i'll try harder next time..fuck...poop

I don't have a problem with reviewing a game based on the first 5 hours. If the first 5 hours are that bad, shame on the developers; they get what they deserve. Seriously, 5 hours is generous... a game is lucky if I give it 5 minutes to pull me in before I decide to never play it again (*cough* Metro 2033 *cough*).

Game looks gorgeous from what I've seen, but holy fuck does that interface look absolutely, insanely terrible. How the hell did they reach the conclusion that it was great the way it is? All that money and time and marketing go into the game, but they completely cock up the interface and menus and make it look like you need a computer science degree to navigate... bloody awful.

I liked Final Fantasy 10. I hated the new combat in 12. It sounds like the combat in 13 is worse.

>> ^Xax:

I don't have a problem with reviewing a game based on the first 5 hours. If the first 5 hours are that bad, shame on the developers; they get what they deserve. Seriously, 5 hours is generous... a game is lucky if I give it 5 minutes to pull me in before I decide to never play it again ( cough Metro 2033 cough ).
Game looks gorgeous from what I've seen, but holy fuck does that interface look absolutely, insanely terrible. How the hell did they reach the conclusion that it was great the way it is? All that money and time and marketing go into the game, but they completely cock up the interface and menus and make it look like you need a computer science degree to navigate... bloody awful.


I agree with you on your appreciation for Deus Ex & SS2 and I agree with you on this. I have to say this was his best review yet.

I really don't understand all the Final Fantasy bashing. Final Fantasy = Epic-ish storyline & Archetypal characters & Combat engine & Pretty graphics. Everyone knows this by now, and yet every release everyone whines about how Squaresoft really screwed the pooch this time around, Final Fantasy 6/7/8/10 was way better, and if they don't pull their head out of their ass the company is finished. Never mind that they have enough money to print their next limited edition release on actual gold discs. Okay that's exaggerating, but you see my point.

The point is that you already know for the most part what you're getting into when you open the box, and it should not surprise you. I enjoyed the crap out of Final Fantasy XIII because the graphics amazed me, the combat system was fun and engaging, and I actually enjoyed the story's pacing for the most part. It doesn't hurt that I think their characters have been getting better with each subsequent release. If you can't stand the characters, or don't like the combat, or aren't willing to watch for 20 hours while the thing gets going, then play a different game. No-one is forcing you to buy this one, and I'd be happy to recommend alternatives.

(Disclaimer: The arguments I've seen here are just about the mildest form of FF bashing I've seen on the Internet. It's just that any level of this generic / nostalgic bashing annoys me because the series has been around so long that it should surprise literally no-one by this point.)

^ So what you're saying is that if they say that "it's meant to be like this", that excuses the fact that people don't enjoy it?

I mean that's the bottom line really, isn't it? People don't enjoy it, so they complain. Now you're complaining that their reasons for not enjoying it aren't original enough.

Edit: also, i rather disagree with you. I think that if a game/company has been around for that long they should be building success upon success, each game getting better and better. Sooner or later you'd reach a saturation point of better and it'd just be fantastic each time.

If you're going to bash on the bashers you need something better than "Stop complaining, the game is MEANT to be like this!" because that, believe it or not, is not a valid counter argument. The game depends on whether people find it fun. I can't make my own shit game and defend it by saying "It's meant to be shit!" and expect people to stop bashing it/not liking it.

Now i've seen a lot of FF bashers out there who sound like they're auditioning for the over-acting society's version of the trial of nazi germany, but the defenders of it, for me, are worse because they're self aware and capable of putting together a decent argument and yet they still say "it's meant to be like this lol!"

That's an extremely impressive strawman you've got there. You've clearly put a lot of work into it.

Personally, I find myself angry and depressed upon each FF release because it's such a sad and pathetic commentary on the world we live in. Here we have a series built on bad storytelling, bad characters, bad plots, bad gameplay, and bad interface design and it's one of the most celebrated game franchises of all time. It would be like Atari Teenage Riot putting out albums for 20+ years and all of them going double-platinum.
>> ^davidraine:

I really don't understand all the Final Fantasy bashing. Final Fantasy = Epic-ish storyline & Archetypal characters & Combat engine & Pretty graphics. Everyone knows this by now, and yet every release everyone whines about how Squaresoft really screwed the pooch this time around, Final Fantasy 6/7/8/10 was way better, and if they don't pull their head out of their ass the company is finished. Never mind that they have enough money to print their next limited edition release on actual gold discs. Okay that's exaggerating, but you see my point.
The point is that you already know for the most part what you're getting into when you open the box, and it should not surprise you. I enjoyed the crap out of Final Fantasy XIII because the graphics amazed me, the combat system was fun and engaging, and I actually enjoyed the story's pacing for the most part. It doesn't hurt that I think their characters have been getting better with each subsequent release. If you can't stand the characters, or don't like the combat, or aren't willing to watch for 20 hours while the thing gets going, then play a different game. No-one is forcing you to buy this one, and I'd be happy to recommend alternatives.

So let me make this crystal clear (I hope). You are more than welcome to dislike the game, obviously. You're more than welcome to complain about the game, and if your complaints are legitimate, I'll happily debate them. What annoys me is when a new FF game comes out and people are actually surprised by the formula as if they hadn't seen it twelve times before (more or less). It's clear they've seen it at least once or twice before, because they nearly always say that FFx is better, where x is usually the first FF game they've played. So surprise? Really?

Also, I don't think calling my argument a straw man helps. Let's take a look at a few examples:

"I quit the final fantasy series as soon as moved to the playstation. Just like Peter Griffin's critique on the Godfather, the Playstation series insists on itself. ... Most of all, I really liked the Jrpg's battles. There was an element of thought that was needed in order to be successful. It has since mutated into a very bland, almost mortal combat style of predictability."

In other words, FF sucks now and FF6 was better. The characters, plot, and development have been more or less the same for several games. Saying it insists on itself implies to me that you're expecting it to reach for something more, which I don't think was ever the case. Also, the battles in Final Fantasy games have never needed that much thought. You have more likely simply gotten better at these games.

"I don't have a problem with reviewing a game based on the first 5 hours. If the first 5 hours are that bad, shame on the developers; they get what they deserve. Seriously, 5 hours is generous... a game is lucky if I give it 5 minutes to pull me in before I decide to never play it again (*cough* Metro 2033 *cough*)."

What? A JRPG that takes longer than five minutes to get going? This should not be a surprise. You have pretty much dismissed the genre completely.

"I liked Final Fantasy 10. I hated the new combat in 12. It sounds like the combat in 13 is worse."

A variation on FF sucks now, FF10 was better. The combat in every Final Fantasy game has been different in one fashion or another, and FF13's system has to be played to be appreciated since it largely emphasizes quick reactions and decision making. In my opinion the system plays much better than it sounds or looks.

"Personally, I find myself angry and depressed upon each FF release because it's such a sad and pathetic commentary on the world we live in. Here we have a series built on bad storytelling, bad characters, bad plots, bad gameplay, and bad interface design and it's one of the most celebrated game franchises of all time."

Mischaracterizing the series does may be the problem here. Final Fantasy is primarily built on epic-ish plotlines and really pretty graphics. It's not stellar writing, but people seem to like it, so Square-Enix doesn't really improve it -- Yes, that's lazy of them. Gameplay and interface have changed with each iteration so these aren't really central to the series. The graphics get consistently better at every turn -- I don't see why this is a problem.

"If you're going to bash on the bashers you need something better than 'Stop complaining, the game is MEANT to be like this!' because that, believe it or not, is not a valid counter argument. The game depends on whether people find it fun. I can't make my own shit game and defend it by saying 'It's meant to be shit!' and expect people to stop bashing it/not liking it."

Okay, how about "why are you commenting on a game you clearly haven't played" or "why are you expecting something other than a JRPG when playing it"? I may not be able to level this one at you directly, but comments such as "The battle system *sounds* awful" and "The interface *looks* horrible" and "Why don't I know everything about a game after five hours" are missing the point in my opinion. At the end of the day, you have to play a game to get an accurate opinion on it, and if you're somehow expecting it to be different than other JRPGs then I don't know why you're wasting your time.

My goodness... That was WAY too long and COMPLETELY useless. I need some chocolate or something.

I used to love Final Fantasy games, but for me it started going downhill after whatever FF3 for SNES was in the Japanese numbering... 5? 6?

However, I won't fall into the trap of claiming that FF3(6?) was actually better than the more recent endeavors -- the real difference is that I personally grew out / away from them. Some of that stems from my being roughly 10-15 years old when I was massively intrigued with FF2 and FF3, but I don't want to overstate that and suggest that an older player can't enjoy the series. What I really grew dissatisfied with is the leveling system that is so prominently featured in JRPGs, and to a certain extent western RPGs as well.

My specific problem is this: I start out as a level 1 peon, with 100 health points. My level 1 stick of smiting does 10 points of damage, and the imps I am fighting have about 50 health points each. I grind away for a while, slowly being spoonfed a storyline that isn't exactly Pulitzer material.

Pretty soon, I bask in my own splendor at having reached level 10. At level 10, I have 1000 health points. I now have an iron sword which does 100 damage, and I'm now fighting ogres that have 500 health points each.

By the time I reach the final boss (or actually in the case of FF games, only after spending some significant grind time after that point) I'm up to a godly level 100, and I now have a massive 10,000 health points. My heavenly sword of deadliness hits for a staggering 1000 damage, but the drakes I am fighting are up to a beefy 5000 hp each.

What's wrong with this picture? Only the fact that the entire leveling system is completely meaningless. The proportions between my level, health, damage, and enemy strength remain essentially constant. At the end of the game, I'm basically doing the exact same things to win a battle that I was at the start. All of the flashy new skills, spells, etc. that I have access to provide me with very brief moments of new gameplay experiences that merely serve to emphasize how consistent and predictable 99% of the rest of the game is.

My foes are visually much more impressive and intimidating by the end of the game, but those looks can't really hide the fact that inside they are just a level 1/10/100 "angry bag" that functions in basically the same way from start to finish. There are exceptions, but not in any truly profound way.

Practically every RPG falls prey to this problem, but the ones that annoy me the most are those that utilize leveling that results in characters that are statistically orders of magnitude more powerful at their final level than they were at the start. Growing to be ten times more effective in combat after training / battle experience? Maybe, depending on where you place the baseline / "level 1". 100 times? I doubt it. 1000 times? Um, no.

Skills-based leveling limits this problem. Sometimes. But really, I'd love to see an RPG where a max-level veteran is statistically only 3-5 times stronger than a completely fresh noob. But realistically, I know that the only way that system can work is in an open-world sandbox style game, and those seem to be rapidly falling out of favor. A pity, at least to my tastes.

FF comes from *Asia

Also, I have to agree with the sentiment that "if you have to wait 20 hours for it to get going, you're doing it wrong."

I almost didn't get into the Witcher because, as Yahtzee correctly pointed out in his "first impressions" review (he should've called this the same!), it kind of straggled out of the gate. Fortunately I got more into it, but the argument about pacing is important and shouldn't just be dismissed out of hand as an "element of the genre."

That's just a bit crazy.

Adding video to channels (Asia) - requested by Krupo.

+ 1 to @MilkmanDan for liking ff3/6, imo the best FF game... Got to love/hate Kefka, the most evil guy in any game out there.
*spoiler alert*
(if you haven't played the game that is...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53uXNM7NUws
From 06:00 and onward... but you can watch it all if you like

>> ^MilkmanDan:
But really, I'd love to see an RPG where a max-level veteran is statistically only 3-5 times stronger than a completely fresh noob. But realistically, I know that the only way that system can work is in an open-world sandbox style game, and those seem to be rapidly falling out of favor. A pity, at least to my tastes.


It's interesting that this sort of progression seems to be part of every genre *but* RPGs. In Zelda 2, for instance, you can only double your health and magic. You grow a bit more powerful as the game continues, but you can still be killed by scrubs if you're not careful.

I don't know if you're into tabletop role playing games, but Legend of the Five Rings exhibits this sort of growth. Even combat masters are only statistically two or three times more hardy than a commoner, though they have special techniques they've trained over their lifetime. Even so, a group of five or six starting characters could cut them down in most cases. It's interesting to look at and fun to play, but as it's a tabletop RPG, it does fall into the category of open world.

The thumbnail image for this video has been updated - thumbnail added by saber2x.

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