i'm pretty sure more than 10 people would find this interesting so *requeue

Re-queueing this video for one more try; last queued Tuesday, November 13th, 2007 1:13pm PST - requeue requested by submitter MINK.

can i *requeue again?

Re-queueing this video for one more try; last queued Thursday, November 15th, 2007 4:09pm PST - requeue requested by submitter MINK.

*requeue
there's nothing else like this on the Sift.

Re-queueing this video for one more try; last queued Monday, November 19th, 2007 1:08pm PST - requeue requested by submitter MINK.

Incredible documentary. It underlines many of the views I had about democracy in Russia. Very frightening.

I heard many say that Russia is not ready for democracy and that it needs "vertical power", that is a false statement, Russians have never experienced true democracy, are pushed away from it by the unstable and turbulent years of the 90s. But this is something they themselves need to clearly understand first, too many of the old Soviet Union guard is still around wanting to go back to the 'glory' days of the Cold War while they systematically rape and steal by 'nationalizing' the oil sector.

the most striking thing is that even in lithuania, a country that fought so bravely for independence, the old guard are still there and young people are still inheriting old ideas.

i really sympathise with those who are worse off since 1991, and who blame democracy for their problems...

but the real culprits are the old guard and the corporate/political mafia who twist everything so much that the situation is neither capitalism nor communism... it can only be described as mafiocracy.

not only that... the culture of corruption extends right through the population, and i am expected to sign dodgy contracts because "everyone does it".. and when i refuse they get very confused. Then they blame politicians for their problems.

of course, all those new rich who are currently floating on a sea of easy credit and EU investment are going to get a shock when the bubble bursts, but they don't even seem to have a concept of bubble economics in their heads, they are totally in denial... all except the wise rich people who will continue to reap the benefits of the disorder.

for a long time, the government did everything, and there wasn't any point in arguing. Now, even with the wonderful gift of democracy, the same attitude prevails, which is actually a dangerous combination.

media monopoly, mafia in the government, all glossed over with a pretence of democracy and wrapped in the lithuanian flag... what could possibly go wrong?

Nice find mink, and I still say you crazies are having this crazy dream about democratic Utopian world. Part of the reason why Putin and his ways are so popular is because they 'tried' democracy back when Yeltsin was in power.

Things went to shits during that time, yet Putin was one of the very fews that actually disagreed with Yeltsin's ways, saying decentralized states would ruin the nation, and Russia needs a more authoritative government to stabilize itself from post-disintegration of USSR.

10 years later things turned exactly the way Putin had predicted, and gave him lot of credibility. That's why Putin got into power in the first place.

All in all, they've tried their best to have democracy and things turned out to be awful. Putin comes in with his ways and things are turning around, and nation is getting rich.

So tell me, why the heck would Russians risk everything they've got right now, and try this democracy deal again?

p.s. and why are you guys keep linking democracy = better standard of living / humane treatment?

Standards of living comes from better economy, not just by switching to democracy. And don't give me that 'democracy = better economy' BS. That's capitalism, not democracy (IE People's Republic of China). Democracy is a way of government policy, not ethics. There were / still are plenty of non-democratic nations with very high standard of living (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, China and etc). And democratic nations that are in poor shapes despite their western government policies, such as Brazil, Nepal and Albania

Any kind of government policy has a potential of achieving strong economy and higher standards of living. Quit doing that cold-war style 'OUR GOVERNMENT IS THE BEST FORM OF GOVERNMENT'.

It's pretty damn interesting, and scary too. You've been determined as hell to get this one sifted, MINK, so I'm glad I can give it the tenth vote.

That's a simplistic argument to make, that Russians 'tried' democracy and it failed. The fact is that Russian's never got to experience democracy at all, with the coming of Yeltsin into power the centralized market system was thrown out overnight for a capitalist economy, workers were issued shares for the companies they worked in, the Russian currency collapsed, pensions were stopped, all due to western economists (who arrived in droves) believing that the spirit of entrepreneurship would suddenly infect the souls of people who lived under communist rule for over 60 years.

But what happened was that some individuals within that system started buying out the shares from the workers who needed to sustain themselves at that point, seizing massive control of various industries, thus creating the oligarchs. The same people who now own various football clubs in the UK.

The people as a whole felt robbed, they blamed democracy for that, failing to see how the economic reforms worked against them, instead of blaming the transition many more people assumed it was democracy that was at fault. What should have been a long term phased switch into a market economy like the one seen with China was rushed within the space of a few years, incomes and welfare of course fell. Look at how gradually China introduced free market zones, by cordoning them off to small regions, then allowed foreign direct investment there. The whole motto of their capital development was "import 1st product, assemble 2nd product, manufacture 3rd product".

The current Putin government is full of KGB cronies who have muscled their way into acquisition of the most important sectors of the economy, most significant of them being the oil sector, which is wholly responsible for the economic boom in Russia. The war in Iraq and possible war with Iran has seen the Oil price soar year on year since 2000 and Putin's coming into power and the economic boom in Russia, that's not coincidental. This is why Putin visited Iran, instability in the Middle East sustains the high oil price and Russia's development.

Putin did give something to the Russians, and that is pride in their nation, a seeming return to the heyday of the Soviet Union with it's planting of flags in the Arctic, stance against the American government and nuclear armed patrols that hark back to the Cold War era. But it also came with government control of oil resources, elimination of civil rights, elimination of freedom of press, state control of media, needless military expansionism, Byzantine rule of government, political oppression through assassination of those who oppose the government.

Just this past month he imposed a collective freeze on food prices until after the elections sometime in January, this was done so as to keep the appearance to Russia's poor that the economy was doing well when in reality food prices across the world are rising, once elections are over they can remove the freeze.

A good article on "Why Putin Wins" is Sergei Kovalev's article , who gives a realistic breakdown of Russia as it is now and what is its future. As Scott Horton says in "What Putin Wants":

The challenge will be for America more than for Russia. In America, there is still a hope that the democratic process can work to effect a rollback of creeping authoritarianism and a restoration of the beacon of hope that the land once held up to the world. In Russia, all sight of that beacon is lost.

*rushes onto the field with bandages for legacy

any government which has to shoot journalists and imprison the opposition is a bad government, period. Putin is KGB, not Amnesty International. Him and his friends have found a way to convince millions of politically naive people that everything is OK. His end will come, unfortuntely only after more people get killed and the fake economy he creates collapses again.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. For evidence, see "The History Of The World parts 1 to 1048973"

You say that my analogies are too simplistic. Ironically, I feel the same about you guys thinking that democracy would fit in so well and just magically turn things around in Russia. Matter is not that simple.

(oh and about Saudi arabia having poverty etc. Well so does United States, UK, France, Germany and all those ghettos in Los Angeles and any other big cities. Every country still has a poverty class. And those who don't are socialist nations, who still have something similar like drug addicts. This is a dead argument.)

And again, Russians feel that they've already tried democracy a go and failed (you can argue that they did it wrong, but nonetheless that's how they feel right now). And Putin's way of doing things seems to work so far. So right now the thought of changing a government policy in middle of positive progression and economic recovery isn't too popular in Moscow as of this moment.

Ultimately it's not me that you should argue against, it's the popular voice of Russia. The ones clamoring democracy are not your regular Joes who suffered through depression of 90's, and likes the change of pace they have right now. But these overly educated people (usually super pro-western because they got rich and successful in the west *cough Garry Kasparov *cough) who has this fantasy view of the 'perfect world', and value philosophical BS over practicality.

whereas you value practicality over human life *cough* politskovaya *cough*

positive progression and economic recovery? Who told you that, Putin's press office?

I watch Russian television on regular basis and keep informed via their press, over the last few years you saw a systematic propaganda movement to convince the Russian population of the same things that are hit within this documentary, that service in Russia is to "Land, Church and Tsar" or specifically the former KGB cronies who now occupy all government posts headed by Putin within the Kremlin. The stability most people talk about is not stability, its fear and respect to the old ways of Russian control much the same way that has been ingrained in the population over 100 years of centralized soviet communist and previous to that Tsar rule.

There is no tradition of peaceful power passage within the Russian government, because for Russians the modus operandi has been either revolt or submission. But its very simplistic to assume that it's what Russian want or understand much in the same way it was simplistic for the Neo-cons to assume that Arabs only understand brute force.

They have not been informed or given the opportunity to see that there are other choices beyond Putin or even Yeltsin, who after a disastrous first term was elected for a second term. The press apparatus was ineffective in informing the citizens that there was another choice, and now has been wholly seized by the state, thus you see the development of anti-western rhetoric that even Legacy employs, that Kasparov and other democratic parties are 'super-western'. It's merely a revival of the age old Soviet stance of 'enemies aboard', 'western intervention' and so on, but merely is a guise for assumption of totalitarian power, much in the same way 'war on terror' and fear mongering tactics were used by the White house to justify intervention into Iraq and the dismantling of key civil liberties.

When Yeltsin assumed power it was recommended to him that he disband the KGB and former secret service apparatus, but he did not take these steps, and over the years the KGB reformed as the FSB encroached on more positions of power and control within the government. Year on year the number of high positions held by former members of the KGB/FSB increased, far in excess of even the times of Gorbachev and the USSR.

Electroal laws have been changed to create a perpetual one party state under "United Russia" - from Putin machine squeezes opponents

* Increasing the minimum percentage of votes required for a party to enter parliament from 5% to 7% and banning parties from forming coalitions in order to break through the higher threshold

* Increasing the minimum number of members a party must have in order to be officially registered by the authorities, from 10,000 to 50,000

* Banning independent candidates from running for parliament.

*promote

Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Monday, November 26th, 2007 8:41pm PST - promote requested by kronosposeidon.