I stopped at #2. Who cares if it's been part of China since the freakin' Big Bang? The Tibetan people want autonomy and independence while the Chinese government just wants to maintain its hold on the region by any means necessary. This argument is like saying a woman can never divorce a man because once they're married she is his property and loses all free will and human rights.

I was already going to be boycotting the Olympics this year, including any company that sponsors the Olympics for its duration, but after recent events my conviction has only strengthened and I'm trying to get my friends and family to join me in it.

The maker of this video is a real ass with his hate-based assertiveness and states many obvious facts of history as if people don't know general Chinese history while being derogative.

I think you summed it up best uhohzombies... it's no excuse to imprison, torture and kill the people of Tibet as they've been doing for a long time now. He's not going to persuade anyone with a grain of common sense in this manner. Watch the "Tank Man" documentary... it will give you a very good insight to today's Chinese imperialistic totalitarian methods and ruthlessness against it's own people.

The people of China deserve to have the Olympics in their country however I think that thier government doesn't deserve any praise for it... especially since it's been known that they've displaced many people without due compensation, they maintain political imprisonment of individuals, information blockage/disinformation and heinous acts of oppression in Tibet.

Considering my ideological perspective I always worry about getting into double standard when I look into China.
Hope you do as much.

Every major country in the world has violated basic human rights at one point or another. Would you boycott the Olympics if they were held in the US, Australia or Russia? Seems unnecessary to avoid something you like based on that. In your defence, there's obviously something I've missed by not participating in that discussion.

Most of Asia belonged to the Mongol Horde.

Please give it back.

This video is ridiculously skewed.

It's not a matter of how LONG Tibet has been 'part' of China or of Tibet achieving national independence, but one of the systematic steps the Chinese government has been taking over the past 50 years to dilute Tibetan culture and language, flooding the area with non-Tibetan immigrants and giving the Tibetan people little say in the management of the region. This "Chinese Apartheid" is the reason why disenfranchised Tibetans are rioting.

What a bizarre mix of insipid forum asshatery and slick video production.

All I can say is, if the people of Tibet want to be independent from China, say by a 2/3 or 3/4 majority, then they should be allowed to separate. Anything else is exploitation, and simply immoral.

BTW, I would have said the same thing during the American civil war. The use of force to maintain a political structure is unacceptable.

Free Texas or leave? WTF? I live in Texas, i grew up in Texas. There isn't a single person I know or have ever heard of who wants Texas to leave the US. Texas has a proud history as a independent Republic and becoming free from Mexican rule, but that doesn't mean Texans thought or do think being part of the US is a bad thing.
The difference is that the majority of people in Tibet would like to be independent from China. And frankly after all these years of being treated as 3rd class citizens to the Chinese dynasties, then a period under British rule (which wasn't nearly as bad as this video makes it out to be), I can't blame them at all for wishing to be free to make their own choices and mistakes.
China is a fascist regime, and while it isn't the most oppressive or violent form of fascism it's still unpoular throughout the rest of the world. I believe that China has a amazing history to draw enlightenment from and the current "peoples'" China is a shadow of the great country it could be.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=4328870

"The Tank Man" documentary Constitutional_Patriot referenced above can be watched in its entirety here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tankman/view/

Past borders of China under ancient imperial regimes are irrelevant.

If the vast majority of residents of Tibet want to secede, they have the right to do so, period. The only possible mitigating factor is if the new government of Tibet allows horrible institutions (for example slavery). That is not likely to be the case. They would have to fuck up badly to get a worse human rights record than the current censorious Chinese oligarchy.

Wow, downvotage is high on this one.

I think it is interesting and well produced, even if some of the arguments are pretty lame. I don't really think the claims of Western imperialism are off base, but it should always be noted, just because your opponent is wrong does not make you right.

I posted it because it's the only vid I've seen on the subject that seems to have come from China. I think that perspective alone makes it siftworthy, but the sift will decide.

Moving this video to dgandhi's personal queue. It failed to receive enough votes to get sifted up to the front page within 3 days.

China, yer pissed because their Kung Fu is better, their Dharma is better, and their view is better, from way up top.....

To Farhad2000:

Just for argument sake, the Yuan dynasty that the video maker referenced IS the Mongolian horde, and it is generally considered part of Chinese history. The Han Chinese are very good at assimilate other cultures through out history. Many times, nomads form the north (either invaded China or was invaded) decided that they would like to become Chinese and either invent or request a Chinese family name for their tribe. The Mongol invaded China, but turned out becoming part of the Chinese civilisation (just like the Manchurians of the Qing dynasty which was also mentioned).

I personally think borders are imaginary (though documented not unlike certain book about a certain god that supposed to exit) lines, so why fight about something that doesn't exit? I'm not defending the Chinese government's actions in any sense, but I do think most westerners are mislead by the media regarding many aspects of China, especially how most Chinese feel about the matter, and this video present some fair responses to some of the arguments that Tibet independent activists pushed out. I do however agree that this video uses an overly offensive tone and that's really not helping his argument.

"Every major country in the world has violated basic human rights at one point or another. Would you boycott the Olympics if they were held in the US, Australia or Russia? Seems unnecessary to avoid something you like based on that."

This is pretty weak, Kreegath. You don't think there's a difference between the Chinese government and the U.S. government in both the regularity and intensity of the rights violations they subject their people to? Sometimes differences in degree are morally important.

To Omelet :
by "The difference is that the majority of people in Tibet would like to be independent from China", you are surely wrong. Most western people don't belive it but the truth is majority of people in tibet would like to have Dalai Lama return to Tibet but they don't care about gaining independence at all. Come to Tibet please, and you know the truth. There are 3 million tibetan in Tibet and less than 0.2 million tibetan are overseas. It is the oversea tibetan( they were slave owners before 1959 and lost their power that year) and some ruling class (monks) in Tibet who want to gain independence. The ordinary tibetan people are mainly concerned with the economic change that Han and Muslim Chinese have brought to Lhasa. Of course I am not saying the human rights in Tibet is good. Not at all. Chinese government have a lot of room to improve in human right, though the current cituation is much much much better than it was when Dalai Lama was in power before 1959 (remember he was the biggest slave owners and more than 90% of Tibetan population was slaves at that time). Tibetan people have every right to fight for more freedom against the goverment (so do the Han Chinese people) but it doesn not mandate the independence. Their ordinary people simply don't want it at all, though you western guys are crying for it. Come and talk to ORDINARY tibetan people in TIBET( not only oversea, not only monks... these guys are previous slave owners!), you will find the truth!!

To Constitutional_Patriot

"I think you summed it up best uhohzombies... it's no excuse to imprison, torture and kill the people of Tibet as they've been doing for a long time now. "
------------
Let me answer your question: some riots were imprisoned and killed simple because of their violent behaviours. They burn people ( Han & Muslim Chinese) to death and destroy shops and buildings. The violence is firece and the police couldn't handle. That's why Chinese army was sent. Not a single civilised country would tolorent this level of violence/killing of inocent citizen in a major city. Sending troop to regain peace is almost mandatory. Not doing so would be huge violation of human rights --- more lives will surely be killed by tibetan riots.

Constitutional_Patriot, I guess the fact I put may be surprising to you. Yes if we don't have common basis of fact, any augument is meaningless. I hope you open you eyes and read more about the event. Maybe it's difficult for you to believe in the possibility that CNN and BBC lie to western public. Personally I think these media are not hurting China or even Chinese government. They are hurting pulic knowledge and judgement of their own citizens.

btw: So far no evidence of torture is available or reported. I guess it was originated from your imagination of miserable Tibet.

view this for the 2nd opinion on Tibet :

http://www.ourvoice.de

Sorry had to downvote, if you can find a video that doesn't start screaming at its viewers to get its "point" across I will gladly watch, but I watched to the end and if someone had been ranting this to me...I'd have called them a damned arsehole.

List of Labor Camps Released to International Journalists in China

Ben Bendig
Epoch Times
Thursday, Aug 21, 2008

The Coalition to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong (CIPFG) released today a list of 51 labor camps for journalists to investigate while they are in China for the Olympic Games.

CIPFG reports that there are nearly 300 labor camps in China, where torture, “re-education” (brainwashing), and forced labor take place. Tens of thousands of Falun Gong practitioners are said to be held there, and among them are those arrested in large purges that took place in the months before the Olympics.

The regime in China has been known to deny independent investigations of claims of torture and abuse in its labor camps, which people can be sentenced to without trial.

In the lead-up to the games, CIPFG released to journalists a guide to seven labor camps near the Olympics venues, titled “Torture Outside the Olympic Village: A Guide to China’s Labor Camps.” These camps held practitioners of Falun Gong, a spiritual practice that is heavily persecuted in China.

Sources reported that the Chinese regime relocated many of the Falun Gong practitioners in the camps to ones in other provinces, and put on show tours for foreign media.

Falun Gong has been persecuted since 1999 when the practice was outlawed after it grew to an estimated 80–100 million practitioners. Reports from human rights organizations document brutal persecution against practitioners, including rape, torture, and the harvesting of organs. The Chinese regime has not explained a surge of transplants done since 2001, including 40,000 transplants with donors unaccounted for.