Hey America. What the hell is going on down there?

>> ^CrushBug:

Hey America. What the hell is going on down there?


Whatever our corporate overlords want to go on, mostly.

STOP CALLING IT STOLEN! The entirety of human culture is stolen by that kind of logic. You can only steal something that is a limited resource, of which bits really are not.

Agreed. If I built a ford out of parts I made myself, down to the fucking molecule, it still wouldn't be stealing. I have not taken anything from anyone.

Intellectual Property is a phantom dreamed up by those who want to control information. Information wants out. Information wants to be free. In the end it cannot be controlled.

Make a better service, then software piracy becomes a moot point.

>> ^GeeSussFreeK:

STOP CALLING IT STOLEN! The entirety of human culture is stolen by that kind of logic. You can only steal something that is a limited resource, of which bits really are not.

I find it wildly ironic that a VIDEO GAME DEVELOPER decries the concept of INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY.

To use your analogy: so it's OK if I independently reproduce your video games, pass them off as my own, and make money off them?>> ^gwiz665:

Agreed. If I built a ford out of parts I made myself, down to the fucking molecule, it still wouldn't be stealing. I have not taken anything from anyone.
Intellectual Property is a phantom dreamed up by those who want to control information. Information wants out. Information wants to be free. In the end it cannot be controlled.
Make a better service, then software piracy becomes a moot point.
>> ^GeeSussFreeK:
STOP CALLING IT STOLEN! The entirety of human culture is stolen by that kind of logic. You can only steal something that is a limited resource, of which bits really are not.

Reproduce all you like. That said, I'm just a part of who makes it, so the official stance on piracy etc etc is not my call. But for my 2 cents, piracy is a service issue. You can design your way out of it.

>> ^longde:

I find it wildly ironic that a VIDEO GAME DEVELOPER decries the concept of INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY.
To use your analogy: so it's OK if I independently reproduce your video games and make money off them.>> ^gwiz665:
Agreed. If I built a ford out of parts I made myself, down to the fucking molecule, it still wouldn't be stealing. I have not taken anything from anyone.
Intellectual Property is a phantom dreamed up by those who want to control information. Information wants out. Information wants to be free. In the end it cannot be controlled.
Make a better service, then software piracy becomes a moot point.
>> ^GeeSussFreeK:
STOP CALLING IT STOLEN! The entirety of human culture is stolen by that kind of logic. You can only steal something that is a limited resource, of which bits really are not.

I like to look at how southparkstudios did it, until their mother-company got all dickish and put geographical restrictions on their site. I used to pirate south park all the time, because that's the only way I could see it unless I waited a year for dvds or something, which I don't even have a player for.

Then they started to stream it almost instantly on their website with commercials, and I deleted all my saved files and saw it there instead. That's a way better service than me having to go through the piratebay or whatever site to get it.

I would even pay per episode if they could guarantee access to it from their site, but hulu, netflix and all the official streaming sites are only for the US and even subscription based, as far as I know, so that's just poor service.

So again, now that southparkstudios is not available to me, the pirates provide a much better service, and that's why a lot of people are pirating it.

It's also worth noting that there's a difference between making a copy of something and giving it away, as opposed to selling it.

Wow. Just wow. If rampant piracy existed in your country, or the key markets for your products, you wouldn't have a livelihood.

How can "service" or "design" stop outright duplication of a work?

So, if I completely duplicate WOW, from the look and feel to the name, and everyone flocks to my servers, that's just tough nuts for Blizzard, right?>> ^gwiz665:

Reproduce all you like. That said, I'm just a part of who makes it, so the official stance on piracy etc etc is not my call. But for my 2 cents, piracy is a service issue. You can design your way out of it.
>> ^longde:
I find it wildly ironic that a VIDEO GAME DEVELOPER decries the concept of INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY.
To use your analogy: so it's OK if I independently reproduce your video games and make money off them.>> ^gwiz665:
Agreed. If I built a ford out of parts I made myself, down to the fucking molecule, it still wouldn't be stealing. I have not taken anything from anyone.
Intellectual Property is a phantom dreamed up by those who want to control information. Information wants out. Information wants to be free. In the end it cannot be controlled.
Make a better service, then software piracy becomes a moot point.
>> ^GeeSussFreeK:
STOP CALLING IT STOLEN! The entirety of human culture is stolen by that kind of logic. You can only steal something that is a limited resource, of which bits really are not.

And if I duplicate the Southparkstudios site, what then? (the only thing keeping me from doing so and collecting ad revenue is IP law)

Essentially you couldn't. You would not be able to provide a better service without spending a very very large amount of money and effort into doing it. An MMO is a service, and you have to provide more than just stable servers for it to work, you also have to create new content, bug fixes etc to maintain the integrity of the product.

You can design your way out of it easily. Free to play is one way of doing it, which we have a lot of success with on iOS and the big shots on PC are waking up to as well, finally. Apple in general have their app rejection policy which keeps the most things at bay, but of course there is jailbreaks, which I don't much care for.

I don't have a problem with people copying, although I would of course prefer they give me lots of money. If they corrupt our product however, with map hacks, cheats etc. then it's a much different issue.

I think it's a problem that many different types of media is lumped together under "intellectual property", because I do think things like Art, music etc should be protected from forgeries and that the original artist should be compensated for his time, otherwise we would have no art at all.

The industry is changing to provide a better service still though. Look at music - who buys CDs anymore? We have things like Spotify and Grooveshark who stream just about any music easily supported by commercials.

Any Blizzard game, and all their future games, will need a persistent internet connection, both for piracy issues but also for better service - instant patching, social networking etc. Same with steam.

>> ^longde:

Wow. Just wow. If rampant piracy existed in your country, or the key markets for your products, you wouldn't have a livelihood.
How can "service" or "design" stop outright duplication of a work?
So, if I completely duplicate WOW, from the look and feel to the name, and everyone flocks to my servers, that's just tough nuts for Blizzard, right?>> ^gwiz665:
Reproduce all you like. That said, I'm just a part of who makes it, so the official stance on piracy etc etc is not my call. But for my 2 cents, piracy is a service issue. You can design your way out of it.
>> ^longde:
I find it wildly ironic that a VIDEO GAME DEVELOPER decries the concept of INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY.
To use your analogy: so it's OK if I independently reproduce your video games and make money off them.>> ^gwiz665:
Agreed. If I built a ford out of parts I made myself, down to the fucking molecule, it still wouldn't be stealing. I have not taken anything from anyone.
Intellectual Property is a phantom dreamed up by those who want to control information. Information wants out. Information wants to be free. In the end it cannot be controlled.
Make a better service, then software piracy becomes a moot point.
>> ^GeeSussFreeK:
STOP CALLING IT STOLEN! The entirety of human culture is stolen by that kind of logic. You can only steal something that is a limited resource, of which bits really are not.

@gwiz665 Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense.

I think this is the most plausible way I've seen anyone square this circle. I'm just not sure it really holds up to scrutiny.

Philosophically, I'm in the "information isn't property" camp, but I also put food on the table by creating intellectual property.

The confluence of my own philosophical tastes on this topic would be that not only should "making copies" be legalized, it should actually be criminal to withhold any sort of scientific or engineering advance from the broader public, especially for selfish gain.

But, I think that would essentially destroy software companies as we know them. I think Blizzard & WoW would have trouble making the case to people that their service is worth $140/yr. That's especially true in the kind of world in which any content they generate can just be copied by a knockoff service provider just as easily as the original copy of WoW was in the first place.

I have trouble even imagining what sort of service they'd be able to compete on in that world. Uptime? In-game customer service? Best policing of player misbehavior? It can't be bugfixes (copyable), and it can't be content (also copyable).

I think ultimately WoW would have to become something more like an open source project -- the community provides all bugfixes and content gratis. Blizzard ultimately would have to give up any kind of creative or engineering control at that point, and also give up on having a revenue stream of millions of dollars a month, too. They'd just be a glorified hosting company. Companies like Microsoft probably wouldn't even be that.

It'd probably be better for the whole world that way, but not so awesome for incumbents in the industry.

You know, people like you and me.

>> ^gwiz665:

Essentially you couldn't. You would not be able to provide a better service without spending a very very large amount of money and effort into doing it. An MMO is a service, and you have to provide more than just stable servers for it to work, you also have to create new content, bug fixes etc to maintain the integrity of the product.
You can design your way out of it easily. Free to play is one way of doing it, which we have a lot of success with on iOS and the big shots on PC are waking up to as well, finally. Apple in general have their app rejection policy which keeps the most things at bay, but of course there is jailbreaks, which I don't much care for.
I don't have a problem with people copying, although I would of course prefer they give me lots of money. If they corrupt our product however, with map hacks, cheats etc. then it's a much different issue.
I think it's a problem that many different types of media is lumped together under "intellectual property", because I do think things like Art, music etc should be protected from forgeries and that the original artist should be compensated for his time, otherwise we would have no art at all.
The industry is changing to provide a better service still though. Look at music - who buys CDs anymore? We have things like Spotify and Grooveshark who stream just about any music easily supported by commercials.
Any Blizzard game, and all their future games, will need a persistent internet connection, both for piracy issues but also for better service - instant patching, social networking etc. Same with steam.

Ultimately, the service they would provide would be content before any of the knock offs. Plenty of companies have tried to make knockoffs of wow, some even with otherwise very compelling universes in the baggage (lord of the rings online, warhammer online), but no one has come close yet. Star Wars the Old Republic might, but I doubt it. A rose by any other name is still WoW. And right now they have a critical mass of users, which is all they need. They could shit in a shoebox and call it Mist of Pandaria and millions will buy it on the release day.

Sure, there exists private servers of Wow at this point too, and some people like to play on them, but for me? I wouldn't even want to. There's no challenge when everything is possible. I'm certain that even if a joint effort between developers of all sorts banded together to copy and create an MMO like wow, it would likely be crap, because they have no other incentive to make it than "because we can". Design decisions based on that are not good - look at linux. Even Mozilla is a company nowadays. A command structure is essential in creating a massive work of art in a reasonable time.

Making a copy of WoW isn't "just" making a copy of WoW, it's enormous. By the time someone has copied it to the finer details, the game will have moved on to something else; systems change all the time.

A good example of something happening like you say is Vampires: Bloodlines where the community made a huge amount of "community patches" to fix the game, after the developer went bankrupt. I like that, but they could do it because the things they were fixing were straight forward. If they wanted to make entirely new things, who decides which things are good and bad? Like wikipedia, they would need custodians. A private company like Blizzard does not have that problem.

I was certainly a little too broad when I said all intellectual property is bunk. First of all I have a problem with the umbrella term of IP. I don't think it's helpful. Different types of IP have different solutions and problems. Some are more bunk than others. (Wtf is with they way rights to music works? What is it now, 100 years after the artist dies? Crazy.)

Like you I am philosophically on the "you can't own ideas, man"-wagon, but practically I'm more loose with my morals - hell, morals are fluid baby.

I'll say this. I would rather have 50000 people playing my game and 50 people paying for it, than I would have 50 people playing my game and paying for it any day.

>> ^NetRunner:

I think this is the most plausible way I've seen anyone square this circle. I'm just not sure it really holds up to scrutiny.
Philosophically, I'm in the "information isn't property" camp, but I also put food on the table by creating intellectual property.
The confluence of my own philosophical tastes on this topic would be that not only should "making copies" be legalized, it should actually be criminal to withhold any sort of scientific or engineering advance from the broader public, especially for selfish gain.
But, I think that would essentially destroy software companies as we know them. I think Blizzard & WoW would have trouble making the case to people that their service is worth $140/yr. That's especially true in the kind of world in which any content they generate can just be copied by a knockoff service provider just as easily as the original copy of WoW was in the first place.
I have trouble even imagining what sort of service they'd be able to compete on in that world. Uptime? In-game customer service? Best policing of player misbehavior? It can't be bugfixes (copyable), and it can't be content (also copyable).
I think ultimately WoW would have to become something more like an open source project -- the community provides all bugfixes and content gratis. Blizzard ultimately would have to give up any kind of creative or engineering control at that point, and also give up on having a revenue stream of millions of dollars a month, too. They'd just be a glorified hosting company. Companies like Microsoft probably wouldn't even be that.
It'd probably be better for the whole world that way, but not so awesome for incumbents in the industry.
You know, people like you and me.
>> ^gwiz665:
Essentially you couldn't. You would not be able to provide a better service without spending a very very large amount of money and effort into doing it. An MMO is a service, and you have to provide more than just stable servers for it to work, you also have to create new content, bug fixes etc to maintain the integrity of the product.
You can design your way out of it easily. Free to play is one way of doing it, which we have a lot of success with on iOS and the big shots on PC are waking up to as well, finally. Apple in general have their app rejection policy which keeps the most things at bay, but of course there is jailbreaks, which I don't much care for.
I don't have a problem with people copying, although I would of course prefer they give me lots of money. If they corrupt our product however, with map hacks, cheats etc. then it's a much different issue.
I think it's a problem that many different types of media is lumped together under "intellectual property", because I do think things like Art, music etc should be protected from forgeries and that the original artist should be compensated for his time, otherwise we would have no art at all.
The industry is changing to provide a better service still though. Look at music - who buys CDs anymore? We have things like Spotify and Grooveshark who stream just about any music easily supported by commercials.
Any Blizzard game, and all their future games, will need a persistent internet connection, both for piracy issues but also for better service - instant patching, social networking etc. Same with steam.

>> ^gwiz665:

Ultimately, the service they would provide would be content before any of the knock offs. Plenty of companies have tried to make knockoffs of wow, some even with otherwise very compelling universes in the baggage (lord of the rings online, warhammer online), but no one has come close yet. Star Wars the Old Republic might, but I doubt it. A rose by any other name is still WoW. And right now they have a critical mass of users, which is all they need. They could shit in a shoebox and call it Mist of Pandaria and millions will buy it on the release day.

Sure, there exists private servers of Wow at this point too, and some people like to play on them, but for me? I wouldn't even want to. There's no challenge when everything is possible.

I think we're talking about different things. Here you're describing people making "knock offs" of WoW by actually trying to independently create a new game from scratch without directly copying any artwork or code from WoW, but still kinda looks and feels and plays like WoW.

I'm talking about firing up the DVD-burner, and making a 100% exact copy of WoW. If that were legal, people would do it. In other words, the "private server" thing. Right now they're mostly script kiddies diddling themselves with Legendary items, because if they tried to actually replicate the WoW-server service and charge money for it, they'd be forced to shut down, and probably get thrown in jail too.

If that constraint weren't there, I'm sure you'd see an explosion of "competitors" for WoW "service". And I'm sure the market would explode with all kinds of people trying to differentiate themselves on service and price, but I'm sure the competition would force the average price well below what Blizzard's charging.

And that's the rub -- without being able to hold a monopoly over the monthly service charge, or even be able to demand $40 for the expansions, would Blizzard even bother with a Mists of Pandaria expansion?

I do think we could make things a lot better if they'd stop extending the time limit on things going into the public domain. Any content older than 10 years should be public domain, period.

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