She seems to think scientology is legit, and is taking their side... uninformed lady is uninformed.

^ or perhaps, stupid lady is stupid.

Scientology gets to be treated like other religions when it starts to act like one.

As long as it continues to refuse to discuss it's beliefs publicly, it deserves no protection at all.

As long as it actively refuses to allow anyone to see their 'secret documents' without paying vast sums of money first, it deserves no protection at all.

As long as it's deepest foundational beliefs still include Hubbard's Xenu alien origin of life fantasy, it deserves ridicule.

As long as it's practices continue to include things like "Fair Game", it deserves to be fought.

Fair Game, is a declaration that an opponent of scientology is 'fair game' for any and all manner of attacks and attempts to destroy their character as are needed to destroy them and their credibility. Vicky Aznaran, a formerly very high level scientologist described the effects/actions of that policy:

Because of my position and the reports which regularly crossed my desk, I know that during my entire presidency of RTC "fair game" actions against enemies were daily routine. Apart from the legal tactics described below, the "fair game" activities included break-ins, libel, upsetting the companies of the enemy, espionage, harassment, misuse of confidential communications in the folders of community members and so forth.

>> ^lwi:

She seems to think scientology is legit, and is taking their side... uninformed lady is uninformed.


Obviously the stupid rubbed off.

I would love him to say it officially, publicly too. It would be true - scientology is sinister, evil and bogus. *Cults are dangerous, scientology is nothing more than a cult of money and stupidity.

Adding video to channels (Cult) - requested by gwiz665.

>> ^bcglorf:

^ or perhaps, stupid lady is stupid.
Scientology gets to be treated like other religions when it starts to act like one.
As long as it continues to refuse to discuss it's beliefs publicly, it deserves no protection at all.
As long as it actively refuses to allow anyone to see their 'secret documents' without paying vast sums of money first, it deserves no protection at all.
As long as it's deepest foundational beliefs still include Hubbard's Xenu alien origin of life fantasy, it deserves ridicule.
As long as it's practices continue to include things like "Fair Game", it deserves to be fought.
Fair Game, is a declaration that an opponent of scientology is 'fair game' for any and all manner of attacks and attempts to destroy their character as are needed to destroy them and their credibility. Vicky Aznaran, a formerly very high level scientologist described the effects/actions of that policy:
Because of my position and the reports which regularly crossed my desk, I know that during my entire presidency of RTC "fair game" actions against enemies were daily routine. Apart from the legal tactics described below, the "fair game" activities included break-ins, libel, upsetting the companies of the enemy, espionage, harassment, misuse of confidential communications in the folders of community members and so forth.


How is that not like "real" religions? Catholic excommunication? Execution for apostates from Islam? Calling Scientology "stupid" then going to church is ridiculous. Scientology is a frickin case study on how a bullshit idea can become a worldwide cult. The only difference between it and "real" religions is 10 or 15 centuries.

^
Beautiful, you hate religion so much your willing to elevate something like Scientology into it's ranks.

When the Christians and Muslims start suing people for distributing copies of the Koran and Bible under copyright violation you can class them together.

When they start charging people thousands of dollars for private, closed doors viewings of small, select teachings from only parts of the Bible and Koran you can class them together.

I figure religions that openly share their beliefs and teach their followers to love and accept their critics are in a different class from those that hide their beliefs and teach their followers to hate and attack all critics.

I'm quite happy lumping Westboro Baptists and Muslims supporting executions for apostates(I know that's a lot of them and I'm ok with it) in with the Scientologists. The local church or mosque that does little more outside their walls than volunteer at soup kitchens and offer support networks to the disadvantaged I class differently.

@bcglorf It would actually be interesting to make a tiered list of religions/cults and plot them after the level of crazy/evil/good.

^gwiz665 It would actually be interesting to make a tiered list of religions/cults and plot them after the level of crazy/evil/good.


Where interesting==depressing

>> ^bcglorf:

^
Beautiful, you hate religion so much your willing to elevate something like Scientology into it's ranks.
When the Christians and Muslims start suing people for distributing copies of the Koran and Bible under copyright violation you can class them together.
When they start charging people thousands of dollars for private, closed doors viewings of small, select teachings from only parts of the Bible and Koran you can class them together.

You mean like executions for heresy & blasphemy, or Indulgences? Like I said, the only difference is 10 to 15 centuries of establishment.

You mean like executions for heresy & blasphemy, or Indulgences? Like I said, the only difference is 10 to 15 centuries of establishment.

Yep, any religion still practicing or defending such practices can be thrown on the burn pile. Are you under the impression that your local christian churches are secretly practicing executions for blasphemy? If you are, stop wasting your time on this forum and report them to your local police, and they'll put the brakes on it asap.

Are you more moderately under the impression that your local churches are defending those practices? If so I'd strongly recommend double checking that belief before making the accusation, as I'm aware of many churches against which your accusations would be blatantly false.

If neither of those are true, and you don't believe the local churches are practicing or advocating executions for heresy, then I'd ask how your question has ANYTHING at all to do with what I said?

>> ^bcglorf:
If neither of those are true, and you don't believe the local churches are practicing or advocating executions for heresy, then I'd ask how your question has ANYTHING at all to do with what I said?


"Scientology gets to be treated like other religions when it starts to act like one."

Scientology is exactly acting like one. It simply hasn't had enough time to update its public image marketing with enough Mother Teresas or Pope John Paul IIs. Give them time, they're young. Another century and the only controversies they'll have will be in countries you don't care about, like preaching against birth control, denying the HIV to AIDS connection, or the systematic protecting of child molesters at the highest levels.

Give them time, they're young.

You say that, but you don't really mean it.

Scientology shouldn't be given time to moderate itself, it should be labeled as the dangerous and destructive cult it is. It should be marginalized and ideally driven to the 'religious' status of Jedi Knights where it is at least understood that the foundation was a sci-fi work from a sci-fi author.

I must say, I'm pretty surprised we can't agree on that.

I can only presume your so keen to class scientology as a religion because that means all the more targets for your barbs against religion. The irony is that you're arguing for the recognition and legitimization of yet another religion. Wouldn't you rather be advocating for us to be heading in the other direction?

That's where I am and it frustrates me to no end when someone like you so helpfully jumps in to the defense of one of the most easily discredited cults out there.

Chop your idealism down a little and start for reform of 'religious' freedoms being limited to those belief systems that are willing to openly and freely share their beliefs and whose teachings include a minimum bar of tolerance.

If you destroy Scientology now, who will run the soup kitchens in 100 years? Why did older religions deserve time to moderate themselves but newer religions don't?

I'm of the opinion that they're all dangerous and destructive but I'm against forcing anyone to abandon them. People should be free to have dangerous and destructive beliefs right up to the point that they start violating the rights of others.

>> ^bcglorf:

Give them time, they're young.
You say that, but you don't really mean it.
Scientology shouldn't be given time to moderate itself, it should be labeled as the dangerous and destructive cult it is.

If you destroy Scientology now, who will run the soup kitchens in 100 years?
Robot slaves of course.

Why did older religions deserve time to moderate themselves but newer religions don't?

You're the only one that ever suggested they should, I certainly never did. I wasn't around during the days of the witch trials and the Inquisition, the best I can do is condemn them today as wrong, harmful and unworthy of any defense or protection.

People should be free to have dangerous and destructive beliefs right up to the point that they start violating the rights of others.

Agreed.

It's also exactly the line that Scientology systematically and routinely crosses.

It tries to use freedom of religion and play it against the rights of others that it is trampling. I believe that act itself should be enough to disqualify it from any such protection or status.

>> ^bcglorf:

Give them time, they're young.
You say that, but you don't really mean it.
Scientology shouldn't be given time to moderate itself, it should be labeled as the dangerous and destructive cult it is. It should be marginalized and ideally driven to the 'religious' status of Jedi Knights where it is at least understood that the foundation was a sci-fi work from a sci-fi author.
I must say, I'm pretty surprised we can't agree on that.
I can only presume your so keen to class scientology as a religion because that means all the more targets for your barbs against religion. The irony is that you're arguing for the recognition and legitimization of yet another religion. Wouldn't you rather be advocating for us to be heading in the other direction?
That's where I am and it frustrates me to no end when someone like you so helpfully jumps in to the defense of one of the most easily discredited cults out there.
Chop your idealism down a little and start for reform of 'religious' freedoms being limited to those belief systems that are willing to openly and freely share their beliefs and whose teachings include a minimum bar of tolerance.


Oh my god, are you new to the internet or something? I'm arguing, through sarcasm, that all religions should be marginalized and destroyed because they are all guilty of the types of things you want Scientology to be marginalized for.

No more so than nearly every other religion I'm aware of.
>> ^bcglorf:

It tries to use freedom of religion and play it against the rights of others that it is trampling.

>> ^lwi:

She seems to think scientology is legit, and is taking their side... uninformed lady is uninformed.


Have Church in any title and people automatically attribute it more importance and increased rights over other institutions.

@xxovercastxx we have to start somewhere, might as well be with scientology. It's damn near impossible to take them all down at the same time anyway.