I think I will say for the record now that I support the building of the mosque legally. However, I don't think it will "build bridges" or anything wholly positive as intended, and thusly think it is ill-advised. I fully support building most anything you want on private property, I also support peoples right to not like what people are building and request that it be moved. The legality is clear, everything else is pretty tattered to me. I would appreciate anyone's comments on why, with all certainty, building this mosque will bring the community closer to reconciliation.

While my take on the video may be different, I concur with your assessment. Cogent.

As to the absorption of sacred or holy sites, this was not exclusive to Islam.

>> ^chicchorea:

While my take on the video may be different, I concur with your assessment. Cogent.
As to the absorption of sacred or holy sites, this was not exclusive to Islam.


Indeed, that seems to be more indicative of a general human nature. Also, I don't like how he uses summery judgments for all Muslims based on what several teachers of Islam have to say. It is like trying to talk about what I believe based on what the Pope said...I'm not even catholic! Also, I think there is a certain level, and this I don't understand, of fear from Christians about Muslims. There seems to be a latent insecurity amongst people that causes them to lash out irrationally against people that don't believe the same set of core beliefs, even with atheists. There is this sweeping bigotry that is deep down inside us that I find disgusting, and the cause of a large majority of conflicts big and small. I think the response to the sages age old question of "Can't we all just get along", is no, sometimes, but not all times.

Symbol addiction has reached stellar heights since the advent of television-TV has been the most successful tool for empire-building and mass-hypnosis. The proposed mosque in question has had so far, the desired effect that this gentleman describes. Hidden agendas aren't that complicated once one extracts their head from their ass, and their numb, drooling faces from the front of this insidious tool for societal mind control.

well its obvouse if your a muslim then u goina have find the cards like that funny , fucking hell , jokes are going to use imagary of a culture.

allso there is not annything inherlty bad about there been a load of mosks in NY city as much as Chirches , the issue is if the Mosks play by the rules or not or are going to be opressive.

My thing is let people build religouse shit if they want to but dont let them abuse women . dont let them indoctranate children with obvouse bullshit.

I think there is an argument for noise polustoin with mosks that would be a big concern of mine , i dont apreceat them bing so fucking noisy calling to prayre , same with chirch bells. Unless its a 1 off occasoin maby 15 x a year max.


The main thing about this thats amausing is how insacure amaercans are ,

The Ground Zero Mosque is just a bunch of horse-shit.

Certain powers in America are trying their damnedest to stir this up to a holy war.

They'll succeed of course partly due to the stupidity of the average American and to a large part because our media is...compromised, to put it nicely.

I was really hoping I could live my life worrying about nothing more than my next tag of pussy and how hard my dick would stay...but it ain't gonna happen.

Some evil fuckers are finagling us into another World War.

And I wish somebody would do something about it.

This guy is making some very tenouse conectoins ,

In no way have muslims evan dented amercans acconamy with the world trade center attack.

thing is amerca is going to detry its self from the inside anny way it alredy is pritty much with the ritch pore devide , id be way way way more worried about welth distrabutoin , welfair , and the damage the midea , and people like palin and beck, are capable on onflicting to the country.

>> ^Bloocut:

Symbol addiction has reached stellar heights since the advent of television-TV has been the most successful tool for empire-building and mass-hypnosis. The proposed mosque in question has had so far, the desired effect that this gentleman describes. Hidden agendas aren't that complicated once one extracts their head from their ass, and their numb, drooling faces from the front of this insidious tool for societal mind control.


While I agree that this seems more of a pawn in a bigger game of chess being played...it is hardly new. From Helen of Troy to the fear of barbarians of the North, symbolic banding is something intrinsic to human nature and not a wholly new media creation. However, your counter point seems to actually beg the question, if symbolic representation is something that has been with us and/or heightened in recent years, then would it not be a fair assessment to assume that BOTH sides have some of that going on? If symbolism resonates with mankind, then this would seem to be more of an issue of why it should concern us instead of why it shouldn't.

>> ^westy:

This guy is making some very tenouse conectoins ,
In no way have muslims evan dented amercans acconamy with the world trade center attack.
thing is amerca is going to detry its self from the inside anny way it alredy is pritty much with the ritch pore devide , id be way way way more worried about welth distrabutoin , welfair , and the damage the midea , and people like palin and beck, are capable on onflicting to the country.


I agree wes, many wide sweeping and unfounded statements...but let there be no doubt that the economy went belly up on 911. My business was literally empty for weeks, we went belly up within 3 months. The different was stark and real. It might of not been perpetual, but the damage was done, and there is now no longer fresh, tasty, wonderful, delightful, Cajun seafood in San Antonio (sigh, O wonderful Jambalaya how I miss you.)

@GeeSussFreeK-Symbols are used, not unlike roughy remarked, by evil fuckers who know how to use them-similar to product placement in cinema. See a symbol enough times then whatever value placed upon it by the bulk of society, becomes the acceptable shit-think.

Symbols contain both intrinsic and adventitious meanings and when used effectively they can convince or otherwise influence the most moral souls to commit unspeakable inhumanities.

To the more enlightened of the planet who take the time to use their computers to explore the history of the place rather than looking at cartoon characters through scopes or hundreds of pairs of tits or listening to National Public Radio, well, it's grammar school time.

Moving this video to GeeSussFreeK's personal queue. It failed to receive enough votes to get sifted up to the front page within 2 days.

What an absolute bunch of horse-crap. If your reasoning sounds like an haiku, it is probably made for the stage. If it is made for the stage you are playing with words. If you are playing with words and you mean to educate, ... ah well, you can probably suspect the value of your reasoning.
We are officially entering the ether of ideological comparison. Go ahead guys. You know how well this has worked out in the past.

I'd feel a lot better if I didn't have the suspicion that this guy got his patriotic hard-on during that video.

>> ^Mauru:

What an absolute bunch of horse-crap. If your reasoning sounds like an haiku, it is probably made for the stage. If it is made for the stage you are playing with words. If you are playing with words and you mean to educate, ... ah well, you can probably suspect the value of your reasoning.
We are officially entering the ether of ideological comparison. Go ahead guys. You know how well this has worked out in the past.
I'd feel a lot better if I didn't have the suspicion that this guy got his patriotic hard-on during that video.


Are you talking to me, or talking to him...and furthermore, what are you even saying! I require specificity. Are you saying the Quran doesn't state those things? Are you saying he is taking them out of context? Just saying something doesn't make it so, you must plead the case. The whole point of this thread was to avoid group thing dynamics where you just state things carte blanche to resonate with your fellow minded friends and to engage with the core issue with specific, and perhaps, personal examples. For example:

>> ^Bloocut:

@GeeSussFreeK-Symbols are used, not unlike roughy remarked, by evil fuckers who know how to use them-similar to product placement in cinema. See a symbol enough times then whatever value placed upon it by the bulk of society, becomes the acceptable shit-think.
Symbols contain both intrinsic and adventitious meanings and when used effectively they can convince or otherwise influence the most moral souls to commit unspeakable inhumanities.
To the more enlightened of the planet who take the time to use their computers to explore the history of the place rather than looking at cartoon characters through scopes or hundreds of pairs of tits or listening to National Public Radio, well, it's grammar school time.


At heart, I am an anti-establishment, non-traditionalist, don't-tell-me-what-to-do type of person. So, when I hear rhetoric about the "man", and zombie mind control, I usually bite hard. When I first read this, I was like "right on, fight the power", but then I started to examine the core of the argument, and look into personal examples and found it held less water.

Symbols only matter when you care. A symbol for you doesn't really work for me at times. For example; I still have my tattered, unusable bible, my lego collection that I never use, books galore, star wars figurines, ect. They all have very little rational value. The raw materials couldn't fetch much of anything on any market. But they all have real, deep, and meaningful value to me. Symbolism is a deep part of my life and I didn't even realize it, and in fact would of said I am very iconoclast if I was asked.

It isn't for a lack of enlightenment or reason, I would say I have a slight deal more of that than the average man (not much though), but what I value naturally reflects itself in how I deal with objects of my fixations. I don't care for churches persay, so making one of blowing one up is silly to even care about, but if you grabbed 30 of the worlds fastest graphics processors and melted them down right in front of me, I would be disturbed. Of if you grabbed my legos which I don't use and burned them, the depths of my sadness would be hard to measure. Or to abstract it away to a level of symbolism, if people that made those items went out of business, I care (RIP BFG video cards).

Far be it a stretch of the imagination that people would use symbolism under false pretense to manipulate people, I am sure it is done all the time. But that only strengthens the argument that the mosque could potentially be built under false pretense inasmuch as the people who are offended by it. Everyone here could be guilty of some hidden, secret agenda, who is to say? I just wanted to point out that people getting upset about something that isn't a direct offense but a symbolic one aren't very different from you or me; they just care about a different set of things.

>> ^GeeSussFreeK:


Are you talking to me, or talking to him...and furthermore, what are you even saying! I require specificity. Are you saying the Quran doesn't state those things? Are you saying he is taking them out of context? Just saying something doesn't make it so, you must plead the case. The whole point of this thread was to avoid group thing dynamics where you just state things carte blanche to resonate with your fellow minded friends and to engage with the core issue with specific, and perhaps, personal examples.


Since you seem to be on the edge of your seat let me elaborate:

"You (no, not you you, him you) have got a personal commentary which involves taking pictures meant or attached to a joke, a muslim quote from Abu-Darba Muhàmmad (III), who lived in 1618 and one from TsafirIbn Kathir, who lived in 1613 and whose thelogical statements are mildly controversial to state it kindly.

You (no, not you you, him you) then proceed to apply this almost 200 year old shematic and the de-contextualized "opinion" of a "muslim friend" onto the peaceful mayority of moderate muslims in the USA and elsewhere and finally end up knee-deep in the cesspool of ZE CULTURE WARS and fear-mongering, where building a house of worship is becoming an act of muslims showing off their religious penis because they are not allowed to have any friends.

I'm absolutely sorry I ever even doubted this man's objectivity and education. Remember, "it was in the minds of muslims ALL ALONG".

This entire debate has already achieved what media demagogues and fear-mongers on both sides of the fence wanted it to, regardless of whether the mosque is built or not.

Should have just built a &)§"&)§( dunkin donuts on ground zero and have it over with...

who are you and what have you done with spell check? Dear god, man.
>> ^westy:

well its obvouse if your a muslim then u goina have find the cards like that funny , fucking hell , jokes are going to use imagary of a culture.
allso there is not annything inherlty bad about there been a load of mosks in NY city as much as Chirches , the issue is if the Mosks play by the rules or not or are going to be opressive.
My thing is let people build religouse shit if they want to but dont let them abuse women . dont let them indoctranate children with obvouse bullshit.
I think there is an argument for noise polustoin with mosks that would be a big concern of mine , i dont apreceat them bing so fucking noisy calling to prayre , same with chirch bells. Unless its a 1 off occasoin maby 15 x a year max.

The main thing about this thats amausing is how insacure amaercans are ,

Are you having a stroke?
aere your'e haiveng uh srocket?

>> ^westy:

This guy is making some very tenouse conectoins ,
In no way have muslims evan dented amercans acconamy with the world trade center attack.
thing is amerca is going to detry its self from the inside anny way it alredy is pritty much with the ritch pore devide , id be way way way more worried about welth distrabutoin , welfair , and the damage the midea , and people like palin and beck, are capable on onflicting to the country.