This is what many Sifters are supporting. Cheery.

Sometimes people are so open-minded that their brain falls out.

False Dichotomy - Logical fallacy

Also known as False Dilemma, Bogus Dilemma, Bifurcation, Black-and-White Fallacy, Either-Or Fallacy

A dichotomy is evaluated on a premise that only two alternatives are possible. This is false when other alternatives are in fact possible, which usually is the case. The notion that a binary choice exists usually is implied rather than being stated explicitly.

Examples:

"You are either with us or against us." -- George W. Bush, November 6, 2001

" http://www.videosift.com/video/Hamas-in-their-own-Voices#comment-628400 " -- Pprt, January 9, 2009

Yeah, the video was informative and paints a scary picture of a dysfunctional application of religion in government (hence the upvote), but saying Israel is wrong in their actions in Gaza doesn't mean that the leaders in Gaza are on the moral high ground either.

I'm curious if the clerics and MP's portrayed in this video are on the more extreme side of the Hamas party and there's generally more moderates, or if this is the position of that whole group. America has its Ann Coulters and Bill O'Reilly's that say some pretty wacky stuff too, but their more insane positions are not supported by most of the their peers. Does this video portray the average Hamas politician and they all go around saying stuff like this?

Pure propaganda.. Can we stop with the cut up 3 second clip videos and talk about something more current events then just, Hamas is bad.

Of course Hamas is bad you morons.

What does that have to do with dropping bombs on schools? Just because the people living in that place elected Hamas? What about US citizens that elected Bush?

What does that have to do with dropping bombs on schools? Just because the people living in that place elected Hamas? What about US citizens that elected Bush?


So, the people are not at all responsible for the actions of their elected government? The Hamas sells war against the occupation, and people were buying.
Of course civilians don't deserve to die because of that, but apparently no, they don't understand that Hamas is bad.

Sometimes I wonder whether voting should even be allowed in areas of conflict. People will just pick the guy most likely to kick the other people's tuchess. It's like this sort of a national survival instinct, or maybe an aspect of an arms race.

That would be true if Hamas solely sold terrorism and a fight against occupation, but Hamas also provide social services for the people of Palestine and has constructed schools and hospitals to achive this aim. From Wiki:

Hamas also runs extensive social programs and has gained popularity in Palestinian society by establishing hospitals, education systems, libraries and other services throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Hamas' charter calls for the recapturing of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now named Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip. Hamas describes its conflict with Israel as political and not religious or antisemitic. However, its founding charter, writings, and many of its public statements reflect the influence of antisemitic conspiracy theories.

Hamas's political wing has won many local elections in Gaza, Qalqilya, and Nablus. In January 2006, Hamas won a surprise victory in the Palestinian parliamentary elections, taking 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber, while the previous ruling Fatah party took 43. Many perceived the preceding Fatah government as corrupt and ineffective, and Hamas's supporters see it as an "armed resistance" movement defending Palestinians from the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories. However, since Hamas's election victory, particularly sharp infighting has occurred between Hamas and Fatah

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

I agree with the first part of Rambaldi's reply, but

>> ^Rambaldi:

Sometimes I wonder whether voting should even be allowed in areas of conflict. People will just pick the guy most likely to kick the other people's tuchess.

I don't think there are any alternatives to elections that aren't worse.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Farhad: I understand your position but just because a murderer contributes to charity doesn't mean they shouldn't be prosecuted for their crimes.

Hamas was elected government for both reasons, and the people that elected them own some of the responsibility for both the good and the bad that they do, just like every democratic nations' peoples own some of the responsibility for who they elect as their leader.

Religion must go. Then the blood shed in the name of God will end...........

This seems to be an inflammatory piece aimed at keeping people afraid of the dark people who speak funny.

Ultimately, Hamas was elected by a disenfranchised group who've been suffering under the yoke of tyranny for more than sixty years. Yet, this didn't start two weeks ago, two years ago, or even sixty years ago. We are speaking about an institutionalized racism going back centuries.

Perhaps Hamas uses religious rhetoric to captivate their audience and inspire their constituents to action. That's no different than Bush did at the beginning of the Iraq War.

Keep in mind, also, that Hamas represent a government fighting for food relief for Christians and Muslims alike. Because, fundamentally, being a Palestinanian doesn't mean being a Muslim, Christian, or Jew, but an Arab from the land of Palestine. Christian Arabs from Palestine suffer the same injustices. And even the Israeli governments sought to deny Palestinian Jews full citizenship in the early years of the regime. Effectively, this war, that has been raging for sixty years, is aimed at the full extinction or exile of the Palestinian people.

Forget religious rhetoric. Don't get wrapped up in the fundamentalism on any side (Israeli or Palestinian).

What is happening in Palestine and Gaza is ETHNIC CLEANSING.

And I thought Americans were against GENOCIDE.

Lets all sing: My God is better then your God......My God is better then Yours.
My God is better then your.......God. Because my brain is so small! Religious political dogma has killed more people then any weapon or natural disaster in the history of mankind. It is a disease.

well said theintelligentsia,
religious dogma and rhetoric may be the TOOL,but this is about ethnic cleansing,
and genocide.
for thirty years the UN has put together a treaty to return to the sovereign borders made in 1967,the ONLY dissenters,EVERY year this has been proposed has been the U.S and isreal.
can someone tell me WHY?
because while some in the world look the other way,and others look upon this situation with horror.BOTH sides of this conflict seem to rationlize the brutality,torture and murder of the innocent,be they plaestinian or jew.
returning to 1967 agreed upon borders would bring some form of stabilization to the average citizenry,and make the inflammatory words we see in this video impotent.it would also strip the IDF from any reason to enter palestinian townships.
while not perfect,it seems to me that at least the average citizen would enjoy a modecum of peace not seen in decades.
i teach comparative religions.
what i see in this video is a total perversion of the words written in the quran.fundamentalists tend to do that,pervert and corrupt the words of scripture to justify their own desires.
i also have been following this story,quite closely,and each time i come to a wall of "why"?
why would they NOT go along with the accord set in 1967?
can someone help me understand this?
because if you take radical,fundamentalism out of the equation,for both sides,most people prefer peace.
so....why is isreal,along with america not agreeing to the original agreement?
please...anybody?
help me understand.

>> ^theintelligentsia:
What is happening in Palestine and Gaza is ETHNIC CLEANSING.
And I thought Americans were against GENOCIDE.

It is absolutely true that many Palestinians are getting hurt and killed, but it is a political and military entity - Hamas - that is Israel's stated target, not an ethnic one. There has been no evidence that Israel is deliberately attempting to rid the Gaza strip of all Palestinians or Islamic worshippers, even if they might want to.

"Genocide" is a loaded term that is incorrectly used in this context. I don't believe "ethnic cleansing" applies either.

And please do not misinterpret this comment as being in defense of Israel. It's pointing out an error in someone's post, not judging Israel's actions.

"but it is a political and military entity - Hamas - that is Israel's stated target, not an ethnic one."

You can't understand how stupid this is? Ok, then Palestinian militants aren't anti-semitic, they just want to get rid of the political and military entity of Israel.

And the problem isn't really Israel taking out Hamas fighters or leaders, it's the hundreds of civilians and children being bombed and bulldozed in their houses and schools. That's sounds like war crimes and genocide, especially when it is done to an occupied apartheid open air prison camp.

And no, there is only evidence that Israel is interested in occupying illegal lands and killing as many Palestinians as it takes to accomplish this. Imagine if you were in control of a million people's lives who are walled in by your tanks and F-16 and war ships and they have no clean water and little electricity and food. Certainly it's not like your are trying to kill them all by blocking all aid and food and water and them dropping bombs on the refugee shelters. Really?

Apologies in advance for the disection.

"Ok, then Palestinian militants aren't anti-semitic, they just want to get rid of the political and military entity of Israel."
This is an irrelevant analogy. You can be anti-semitic just by your words or thoughts. However, you cannot be genocidal or engage in ethnic cleansing without doing something physical. One is an emotion or opinion, and the other is an action. My comment was about ACCURACY of these terms, not about a JUDGEMENT regarding them.

"And the problem isn't really Israel taking out Hamas fighters or leaders, it's the hundreds of civilians and children being bombed and bulldozed in their houses and schools."
I totally agree with this. I inferred as much in my post.

"occupying illegal lands"
Honestly, so much of the recent mutual behaviour between the two factions is illegal by international law, I'm not sure that "legality" means anything to the situation any more. If this is going to ever be fixed, historical prosecutory claims have to be dumped out the window.

"Imagine if you were in control of a million people's lives who are walled in by your tanks and F-16 and war ships and they have no clean water and little electricity and food. Certainly it's not like your are trying to kill them all by blocking all aid and food and water..."
I agree with this point. Israel has been blocking aid and this is deplorable. If it were to go on for a few weeks, I'd agree that it's passive genocide, but I'm not sure that's the case yet. Anyone know if supplies were successfully delivered to Gaza in the recent short ceasefires?

"...and then dropping bombs on the refugee shelters"
I haven't seen this anywhere in the media, admittedly not that I've looked too hard. Can someone please point out where this has been occurring?

clear propaganda. They could make exactly the same video about USA or Israel or anyone else. Design in a Very shallow way for morons and the masses.

We all know that both sides are in the wrong. If I had to accuse one side over the other it would have to be Israel as they are the ones who took over Palestine.

For today they should all be working for peace stead of killing each other. Both of them are idiots but Israel are just acting like real ass holes. If Palestine would have done the same thing that Israel is doing we will be talking about a nuclear war by now.

About the religions aspect of this... I think is secondary and a completely different issue. I would say death to all religions and their non-sense. It is only good for excusing oneself of destroying others.

They could make exactly the same video about USA or Israel or anyone else. Design in a Very shallow way for morons and the masses.

If these are actual soundbites, no they can't.

This video clearly shows a consistent pattern of elected Hamas Members of Parliament calling in public speeches for the complete death of their enemies and for conquering the rest of the world. The context of those statements is unmistakeable.

This is not just a single nutjob reverend from the Bible Belt preaching "kill the homos" here, these are official government representatives endorsing the death of members of another culture. You won't find many occurrences of American politicians saying the same thing without being completely marginalized, even though through its actions, America is doing some of the same things Hamas is saying they want to do in this video.

In response to the comment about terminology.

Would it seem rational to you if the Israeli PM or government official stood before the international community and declare that their objective is full scale annihilation of a people? Only then, would you call it genocide or ethnic cleansing?
Politicians declare many things, but I would hope sentient human beings are able to critically analyze the world around them. How many women and children need to die for people to recognize them as humans? Or would the Israeli PM need to stand up and declare their humanity for you to believe they are entitled to human rights?

I challenge you to think past the rhetoric and construct a terminology that you find adequate for the situation. But as I sit at this computer musing over word choice, the IDF bombars Gaza-- a city that has been under strict economic deprivation for more than two year--from air, sea, and ground, using chemical weapons on a mainly civilian population, 1033 people are dead, more than 4000 are wounded (which a generous estimate of 50% noncombatants) and the US continues to send M16s. Effectively, a large population of a given people are being killed.

And you want to quibble over terminology?