As well...,
(using the example at the bottom from the post on YouTube)

If someone's wage is 30% wage and 60-70% Tips, brings up their income level to a decent level, they no longer make minimum wage.

1). The government is getting shafted on the income tax (someone call the IRS)
2). I say: pay the servers the proper wage they deserve, cut out the mandatory tip and raise the food prices to compensate.

This way, the servers get paid a fair wage, the customer isn't forced to tip for bad service and the people pay taxes based on their income true levels so they start paying like the rest of society.
The servers still get the option to be tipped above and beyond, only now they have to work for it.

Also on that note, I'm not sure how this works in the US, but here in Western Canada, all tips go into a single jar and get divided equally amongst the entire server/kitchen staff at the end of each night.

QUOTES FROM YOUTUBE:
"when I was a server I pocketed $100 per 6hour shift on average, plus my hourly wage. So when you look at it 2 dollars an hour I am still pulling in 112 dollars for 6 hours of work that's not to shabby." - nicholaswells

"Thank you for giving us a real life example, Nicholas. $112/6 hours = $18.67 per hour. I encourage anyone who wants to heartily disagree with Dudley on this issue, but I am sick of hearing that waiter/esses make minimum wage; they do NOT. I recall my days in high school when the girls held the waitress jobs at our national chain pizza restaurant. I made $3.50/hour; they made $9/hour ($2 from the employer.) They did NOT received minimum wage--I did. - euroboardgames "

I hate tipping, Sure I'll tip if it's called for.
Tipping is a great way of rewarding those who go above and beyond.

But I think the US system is broken and needs fixing of some kind.
When the system is built so that the waiter/waitress gets paid the lowest wage possible by the employer and the customer is forced to tip whether they deserve it or not to offset the lack of wages, there is a major problem. That's called a surcharge, not a tip.

I don't know what this guy is proposing, there is no information in this video. It's all subjective on the peoples reactions not what they are reacting to because he never mentions wage reduction in the clip.

Maybe instead of sowing decent, someone needs to sit down and talk to this guy, maybe he has some real ideas. And maybe he doesn't, because like I said, we don't really get a chance to listen to him.

Reminds me of... not is ... it shares a general concept but not the motivation to create obediance.

Here, the language takes away the context of human idioms, emotion, and cultural norms embedded in the words replacing it with dry descriptions and simplified adverbs. e.g. Lips, eyes, smile, waiter, food, drink, menus, mirrors, tears, man, woman. Smiling or crying means something. Lip uplifting or dripping salt liquid is an empty description.

Living with such a language would limit the ability to think and behave emotively as a human... there just wouldn't be a word for it any more.>> ^poolcleaner:

>> ^raverman:
Awesome Post! Steampunk style poetry... reminds me of Orwellian "Newspeak".

It's more like the opposite of Newspeak. Newspeak was a parred down vocabulary, simplifying sentence structure, omitting alternative words, and emphasizing simplistic concatenations such as "doublethink", as well as shortened concatenations such as "minitrue" (Ministry of Truth). It's also important to note that in order to truly speak and understand Newspeak you must have a specific understanding of each word, for no single word is intended to be used in any other way than it's original meaning, eliminating poetics.
This video, on the other hand, is a string of modern expressions filled with stiff latinate words for comedic (and poetic) effect. There are too many thoughts associated with each word to be even remotely considered for ingsoc's Oceania.

>> ^berticus:

The waiters of the best eating-houses mock the whole world; they estimate every client at his proper value.
This I know certainly, because they always treat me with profound respect. Thus they have flattered me into praising them thus publicly.
Yet it is true; and they have this insight because they serve, and because they can have no personal interest in the affairs of those whom they serve.
An absolute monarch would be absolutely wise and good.
But no man is strong enough to have no interest. Therefore the best king would be Pure Chance.
It is Pure Chance that rules the Universe; therefore, and only therefore, life is good.


Would that I could evoke *Quality.

That is the Breaks.

Beautiful Berticus, well done.

The waiters of the best eating-houses mock the whole world; they estimate every client at his proper value.
This I know certainly, because they always treat me with profound respect. Thus they have flattered me into praising them thus publicly.
Yet it is true; and they have this insight because they serve, and because they can have no personal interest in the affairs of those whom they serve.
An absolute monarch would be absolutely wise and good.
But no man is strong enough to have no interest. Therefore the best king would be Pure Chance.
It is Pure Chance that rules the Universe; therefore, and only therefore, life is good.

There are topless waitreses in the Sift Lounge now. Unfortunately there are bottomless waiters, too. I sit at the bar instead of the tables if you get my drift.

Welcome back Gunny. Stick around a while. And don't eat the peanuts.

HA!
i made twice the amount of a bachelor degree holding graduate!?! sweet holy mother of irony!
doin what you ask?
waiting tables,bartending and event co-ordinator.
and i actually enjoyed my work.
still buying into that whole "you need to go to college if you ever expect to succeed BULLSHIT"?
well,if money is the parameter in which you gauge your success....you lost that race scooter.
think on this:a waiter makes double what you spent six years to achieve and the waiter has no debt.
think on that and despair.
you have been lied to.

Wouldn't the swearing also make it NSFW? However, I like the artwork, and I've been in that position (as the wtf don't ask me what I just got tipped waiter), so upvote!

Your problem has been around for decades. We have all had to compete upon graduation in a market full of experienced people. I would suggest going to grad school and getting a masters. Or even offering to work for a reduced amount or for free as a probationary measure. A friend of mine's son, recently graduated with a BS in engineering, did just that and it worked. He negotiated to come on as a contractor at $1000 a month; 3 months later they raised his salary. He will probably get taken on as a full worker; but even if they let him go, he has gained some valuable experience.

However, on the contrary, many companies are laying off workers who have years of experience in favor of less expensive new graduates. So, people on the other side of your situation are feeling the same pressures but in a different direction.

Lastly, what's wrong with getting a low paying retail job until you start your career? I worked as a waiter for a few months after I graduated (with a BS in physics) and was able so save some much needed money.

>> ^ForgedReality:
What about those of us who have been on twelve interviews since graduating, and refuse to take a fucking retail job making minimum wage, yet because Obama doesn't give fuck all about the economy, and is therefore doing NOTHING about it, companies will not hire you without years and years of experience, even if you have a bachelor's since it's just too big of a financial risk to invest in new employees, and, thus, we're motherfucking screwed. How about us, huh?
Thank you for wasting billions upon billions of the dollars we haven't even printed yet, Bush and Obama. How swell of you to think of the big picture.

I like Chinese
The world today seems absolutely crackers,
With nuclear bombs to blow us all sky high.
There's fools and idiots sitting on the trigger.
It's depressing and it's senseless, and that's why...
I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
They only come up to your knees,
Yet they're always friendly, and they're ready to please.

I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
There's nine hundred million of them in the world today.
You'd better learn to like them; that's what I say.

I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
They come from a long way overseas,
But they're cute and they're cuddly, and they're ready to please.

I like Chinese food.
The waiters never are rude.
Think of the many things they've done to impress.
There's Maoism, Taoism, I Ching, and Chess.

So I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
I like their tiny little trees,
Their Zen, their ping-pong, their yin, and yang-ese.

I like Chinese thought,
The wisdom that Confucious taught.
If Darwin is anything to shout about,
The Chinese will survive us all without any doubt.

So, I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
They only come up to your knees,
Yet they're wise and they're witty, and they're ready to please.

All together.

[verse in Chinese]
Wo ai zhongguo ren. (I like Chinese.)
Wo ai zhongguo ren. (I like Chinese.)
Wo ai zhongguo ren. (I like Chinese.)
Ni hao ma; ni hao ma; ni hao ma; zaijien! (How are you; how are you; how are you; goodbye!)

I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
Their food is guaranteed to please,
A fourteen, a seven, a nine, and lychees.

I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
I like their tiny little trees,
Their Zen, their ping-pong, their yin, and yang-ese.

I like Chinese.
I like Chinese.
They only come up to your knees...

>> ^Hawkinson:
My vote: tipping should not be mandatory. The minimum wage should be a living wage. Waiters/waitresses should not be lower than the minimum wage.
I live in California, so servers are always paid the minimum wage, and when I eat in Santa Monica I know they are getting a living wage. Never the less I always tip 15%, no questions asked. If I made more money, I'd tip 20%, regardless of the level of service. LA is kind of a sucky place to live if your a god damned waiter at Denny's, I don't want to make it any shittier.


Minimum wage is absolutely not a living wage.

My vote: tipping should not be mandatory. The minimum wage should be a living wage. Waiters/waitresses should not be lower than the minimum wage.

I live in California, so servers are always paid the minimum wage, and when I eat in Santa Monica I know they are getting a living wage. Never the less I always tip 15%, no questions asked. If I made more money, I'd tip 20%, regardless of the level of service. LA is kind of a sucky place to live if your a god damned waiter at Denny's, I don't want to make it any shittier.

a few points to make:
---
The restaurant/pub owner/manager was dumb because of all the negative publicity. he/she will easily lose more than $16 worth of business. I blame the manager because if the service was shitty, then they didn't have enough staff (or people called off and no one was brought in as replacement), or that that groups particular waiter/waitress was being lazy because he/she knew that they *automatically* get a tip for parties of 6, so they focused on other tables.
if it was the manager who called the cops, then the owner should have stepped in (the next day or sooner) and dropped the charges before it goes to court, and give them free meals or something. even if it was a "contract" as in written on the menu or told in person, if they got shitty service, they shouldn't have to pay for it. The soup nazi might be funny on Seinfeld, but in real life, in most locations, he wouldn't stay in business.
---
In general, I think it is ok for a restaurant to add a "mandatory" gratuity (oxymoronic or not) to large groups because they are more difficult to handle. They take up more space, stay longer, and are louder than multiple smaller groups combined.
I'm also ok with it being called gratuity, as opposed to a "fee" because it removes ambiguity, such that people aren't tipped twice, and customers aren't asking about the "fee". p.s. The IRS definition for this is "autogratuity".
---
waiters and waitresses make less than minimum wage (usually $2-$3 hourly). for their federal taxes they have to report 100% of their tips to be legal. Employers are required to report all charged tips, and cash tips are estimated based on previous tax year filings for similarly situated employees (- 2%), at least monthly. (For example if all waitstaff made an average of 17% tips for the past year, the employer has to report 15% of gross sales for that employee to the IRS). If the waiter/waitress makes less than minimum wage with their combined $3/hour + tips, the employer must make up the difference to bring them to minimum wage for the hours worked. (But if they are that bad, they would probably get fired)
---
as a teenager, I worked as a busboy in a restaurant. maybe some larger chains are handled differently, but here it was up to the waitress to give the busboys (or busgirl) a portion of the tips they made (this is tipping-out, goes for bartenders as well as busboys). Since I knew the general price of everything on the menu, and also how many customers there were that night, I knew which waitresses were cheapskates and which ones tipped their busboys well. Guess which ones got priority?
---
I think it is a self-perpetuating cultural flaw in America that requires this tipping system. In several other parts of the world, family is more important, as well as dedication to employers. People works together as a team, and they take pride in their work. So, if a waiter does a good job, it makes the restaurant look good, and if they do a bad job, they feel ashamed. American culture rewards individual achievement so much more, that it leads toward apathetic employees and employers. Everyone is thinking of "how can I get ahead?" and so most employers don't care about employees, because there is no more loyalty. People switch jobs and companies much more frequently now than 50 years ago, or even 30 or 20 years ago. It comes down to money and individual gain.
So what's this have to do with tipping? If everyone automatically got tipped the same amount, then the waitperson would have little incentive to do a good job (or NOT do a shitty job, as exampled here). Whereas if they are rewarded based on performance, then they will consistently do a better job. If we switched to a system of "0% tips, raise menu prices, raise wages" then you'd have some good employees, but a whole lot who "don't give a shit" and do the bare minimum to not get fired, and overall quality of service would go down, but prices would stay the same.
Not tipping works in asia - because the staff take pride in their work, without the feeling of individual entitlement.
---
Lastly I'm surprised that no one linked to this video during this thread -
http://www.videosift.com/video/3rd-Rock-From-The-Sun-Tipping-Like-It-Should-Be
---
that is all, thanks for reading.

while finishing up my university education, i found work in honolulu in a very upscale restaurant overlooking waikiki beach -- this place had fantastic food, an unbelievable view and a great reputation, such that their employees (particularly waitstaff) stayed on for years and years - the average age of the waitstaff was ~35-40, and this was their career, not just some tide-me-over summer work -- as well, they were all very well educated, with most speaking at least 3-4 different languages

of course i couldn't enter the job at the waitstaff level, because those at the top of this hierarchy never left -- i began as a dishwasher, and learned as i worked 'how to' and 'all about' every aspect of the restaurant's food service and preparation business - we 'lower levels' would be routinely quizzed by the chef and management about such bizarre things as wine varietals and the history of the different wine-making regions, the history and ingredients of things like 'worchestershire sauce', as well as every ingredient and what amounts in each and every dish our restaurant prepared, as well as our knowledge of the hawaiian islands and interesting places our, primarily tourists, customers could enjoy -- i worked hard at this and eventually excelled over my co-workers, thus quickly rising to a position of 'senior' busboy - then i was allowed to clear plates and refill water glasses

i eventually rose to the position of 'backwaiter' whose job was basically to do all the 'dirtywork' of a 'frontwaiter' - the frontwaiter being primarily the frontman of a closely knit team overseeing the pleasurable dining of those customers assigned to us of a particular evening (this was done very carefully, going so far as to assign a german or japanese speaking waitstaff team to a german or japanese-speaking table of tourists, respectively)

continuing to learn and display an ever-growing knowledge of foods, wines, liquors, local culture, as well as as decorum and panache... i eventually was promoted to frontwaiter when one of those coveted positions opened up because of a staff member being hurt in a terrible car accident -- this meteoric rise took me almost 2.5 years

as a frontwaiter, i had the ultimate responsibility for my server team - such that i could, at an appropriate remove, watch my tables and anticipate any and all needs of my guests, dispatching my team members with a nod, a glance, or a simple unobtrusive gesture to immediately comply with whatever i felt needed to be done to make our guests' experience perfect - like a team of spies, my staff would report to me, e.g., which of our guests was eating the most slowly... so that i could anticipate when the last dish of the previous course would likely be cleared away so that the next dish could be served in as timely a fashion as possible - we all knew the cooking times of the next course, and would instruct the chef's team of when to begin the preparation of the next course based on which dish of said course would take the longest to prepare - as well, replacement cutlery was already on its way to the table before a guest's implement had completed its fall to the floor due to a patron's clumsy elbow or the like

after another year of this, i was promoted to assistant manager of the restaurant, where i would oversee the 'front of the house' and the individual frontwaiter teams working seamlessly with both the kitchen and barstaff

i say all of this as a way to make some here understand that, imho, there was simply no way that an hourly wage or salary could have created the pride and dedication to excellence that the tips from our commensurate service often brought - it would boggle your minds to know the number of times our customers showed their generous appreciation of our attempts to make their evening (and entire vacation in the islands) as memorable as possible

on one particular evening, an elderly australian couple came in for dinner, obviously tourists - the hostess informed me that they had presented an 'entertainment card' upon being seated -- now, this e-card is a popular facet of tourism locales, whereby the tourist buys a fat book of coupons for both goods and services available around the islands - this typically cost them us$30 and it came with a sort of credit card that could be presented in lieu of toting around this cumbersome book of offers -- in our case, the e-card entitled the holder to one free entree of equal of lesser value for every regularly priced entree purchased - the book further stipulated that a condition of using this offer, the e-card holder 'could be' automatically service charged (15%) as a gratuity, and that to be in compliance with the offer, the gratuity would be based on the original, undiscounted total of their meal

as we were very near our closing time, and my staff had had a long evening of it... as well as the pugnacious and crass demeanor of the elderly australian gentleman, i offered to serve as their front waiter, rather than have one of my hard-working staff suffer under his tight-fisted and surly deprecations

i proceeded to give them, imho, one of the best dining experiences of their lives, and at the close of the evening, i presented the gentleman with his check... noting both the orginal and discounted bill, and that the check had been service charged at 15% of the original total - he paid by credit card, and after i had returned to collect the signed credit card slip, i noticed that he had 'lined-out' the place on the slip where the gratuity was printed, and then 'corrected' the total -- when i returned to top-off their coffees, i enquired if anything during their evening had been amiss - they responded that everything had been perfect -- i then politely broached the subject of their not leaving a tip -- the australian gentleman then garrulously countered that he didn't 'believe in tipping' - i gently pointed out the e-card policy through which they'd received the discounted price, and he responded with an obscenity

i asked him to produce his e-card again, and i quickly went to my office, photocopied the relevant pages of the entertainment-card book, the credit card slip with the the tip section lined out, and cut his e-card in half... the last of which i returned to him

the next day, he complained to the restaurant owner and the e-card company - but when i produced the relevant details, both of the above sided with me

was i in the wrong? imho, the fact is that there is service and then there is 'service' - the latter of which should certainly be more commensurately rewarded than the former... but some people just refuse to see it this way

>> ^blankfist:
It's easy to complain about a business when you've never invested money in a venture yourself. Most business owners are NOT billionaire fat cats with top hats and monocles. Most are working to make a living, and a lot of restauranteurs make less than the servers because of the debt and having to pay worker salaries first before paying theirs.
That aside, when these customers sat down to order they agreed to the mandatory tip. It would've been wise for the restaurant to comp them when they complained, but they certainly are not obligated to do so.
I rarely tip less than 20% unless the service is terrible. Even when mandatory I tend to add to it. I suppose I should move to Europe where they "make better society" and then I'd never have to reward people for their good work.


Blah blah de blah blah. It's easy to make personal attacks instead of a cogent argument.

That last part is just bullshit. We pay tips in Europe, or Denmark at least, but only if the service was over average. Our restaurant industry is better, because if you don't get a tip, you don't starve. You are rewarded for good work, not punished for bad work.

>> ^poolcleaner:
>> ^gwiz665:
I have no problem with a restaurant adding an extra fee if you are a big group, but I have a problem when they try to call it a tip or gratuity. That's the whole issue, it's not gratuity, it's a bill. I pay tips in restaurants when I've gotten good service, or we had difficult orders or whatever - but I CHOOSE to pay it, I'm not forced to it.

Your opinion is skewed because 1) You don't live in America, and 2) You didn't work in the terrible food industry of America.
Before you start downvoting me and before you stop reading what I have to say, let me explain: I'm not against you not being American, (because that's a simple-minded way to go about judging people) but the food industry here is bullshit and the system (for lack of an actual person to blame) forces workers into this reality. When a tip is not paid by a customer, it's akin to docking a worker's pay. I know it doesn't make that much sense, but it's how things turned out over here. And it's as simple as that from a restaurant worker's perspective.
My next point is also important to your understanding: The total tips that a waiter/server makes at the end of the day is split up amongst the food runners, bussers, and barback, so not tipping has a trickle down effect to people who may have done their share of work yet who rely on the waiter to make their fair share.
It really is a shitty shitland of shit for the workers who live by these rules. I fault your ignorance of our food culture, not your ability to reason. I'd love to adopt the system you envision, but that means nothing in the short term and isn't too realistic.


You say that as if I don't know it. I do. Your system is shitty, everyone knows it. I would refuse to play into a shitty system (food industry). If these people saw that there was a mandatory extra fee and chose to eat there anyway, then they are in the wrong. Of course. But to call it a gratuity or tip is deceitful. I have no problem docking a waiter's pay if he provides shitty service, if his pay is partly what he wants me to donate. It is obviously obfuscating the terms, so it doesn't feel like an extra bill, but it still is.

The problem is that (all) customers are being blamed for the poor pay that waiters have. It is not the customers' fault, it is the business owners and the industry's fault.

[edit: forgot I already had replied to that last part..]