Is this sarcasm? If not, then [citation needed].

>> ^jwray:

This is heavily edited. It doesn't show what he said to piss people off.

Your video, Cultish Orthodox Jews do NOT want you in their community, has made it into the Top 15 New Videos listing. Congratulations on your achievement. For your contribution you have been awarded 1 Power Point.

Whether thrown in an oven or massacred by bombs and artillery what is the difference ?
And yes, I do believe as many Muslims have been slaughtered over their history as the Jews (if not more).

Also, ALL orthodox religions are CRAZY ! Christian, Jew or Muslim. Please stop cherry picking extreme events to paint Muslims as crazy, all religions are guilty of it. I can't be bothered to troll the internet for tragic instances of religious freaks killing each other, but it's all there. Just look at orthodox Jews in Israel if you want to see the oppression of women. I don't see the west stepping in to 'help' them.

Also, the west is mostly to blame for the lack of progress in the middle east. Every time an organized modern government appears, we bomb it back into the stone age or setup a dictator to take them out.
The west does not want progress in the middle east. Just look at Israel / Palestine.

>> ^GeeSussFreeK:

>> ^billpayer:
This talk is pathetic.
The Hudson institute is a bunch or war mongering fascists set up by Herman Kahn (sociopath) and RAND corp (ie. US Military Industrial Complex).
Scum like these have been building up Islamophobia for decades.
Muslims are in-arguably the new Jews and are the subjects of persecution all over the globe.

Interesting, and where are the getting tossed into ovens by the tens of thousands? Where do women still get stoned for showing their faces? While no doubt, the subject or some western bigotry, the comparison to them to Jews is just patently absurd. Even African Americans pre-60s had it harder then Muslims today. Are there separate Muslims bathrooms, no.
This talk is not pathetic. Was it pathetic the Catholic Church was, and still is, the subject of malice over the recent fiasco, no. Western bigotry over Muslim ideals is inevitable, because as they currently are incompatible. They don't have to be, but that is the current state of them. A man can beat his wife for not putting out. A women can be stoned for adultery, and adultery can be so loosely defined as being alone with another man that is not your husband.
This does cause undue stress on Muslims that do not practice these ideals, they are the true victims. But they still don't have it as bad as AA did in America, the Jews in German, or the women in Muslim countries do today.

>> ^Skeeve:

I'd like to see some stats on the amount of scientific research done by atheists as opposed to research done by religious people. We already know that the majority of people in academia are non-religious, does that carry over into the research? In that case, I think it would show that the religious people are really the parasites.


Yeah, the vast majority, 'today' being the key word. It seems only correlative though. I don't see how its relevant except in the kook's eyes. Playing to that game, the vast majority of scientific discoveries throughout history were made by people who HAPPENED TO HAVE HAD religious beliefs and would only further strengthen his bizarro logic. Its just not relevant at all. Progress is made in spite of this vile shit, not because of it.

Speaking of parasitism, something something about tax-exempt status in America while demanding even more special privileges and contributing virtually nothing. Not enough? How about Ultra-Orthodox Jews who dedicate their lives to Torah study in Israel basically being on payed state-welfare for their entire lives? The only group who holds such a privilege in the entire country; these fucking nutters who think Armageddon can't come soon enough and are purposely trying to steer the Middle-east towards conflict. All the while trying to erode/undermine the remaining secular values their government guarantees and that the normal every-day WORKING folk there pay for, not these fucking leeches scratching and clawing to hold on to their remaining power as it increasingly slips through their fingers.

Hypocrisy is basically a prerequisite if you want to be a part of their club. I have to live with this ignorant crap everyday, family dinners are a fucking ball and a half! It really disturbs my family for them to know that they're related to a "Nazi", err I'm sorry, a "Natzi". Do these idiots not realize the similarities in rhetoric they share to a certain someone who basically sought to eradicate them completely, not too long ago? Have they no sense of decency/self-respect, no sense of history?

These people are out there in droves. America is in for some rootin' tootin' good times if these people are genuine about their desires for "revolution". Tea-baggers fucking disgust me. Big surprise that they also scare the ever-living shit out of me and most other sane, rational folk. Its impossible to argue with these people in good faith, stop by for dinner with the family if you doubt me.

/toggle ramble off

He's describing Hasidic Jews. Orthodox Jews dress conservatively but still relatively normally.

My father is a carpenter and does quite a bit of work for orthodox Jews in the area. They generally are very happy to discuss and explain these oddities and a lot of them seem to think they're as ridiculous as we do but honor them as tradition.

There was a plumber at one house while my dad was working and they got talking a bit. The plumber explained that he spends a lot of time during the summer (most of these families live in NYC and only spend summers here) unclogging toilets at Jewish homes. Why? Because you can't tear toilet paper on the Sabbath.

You can use toilet paper, but you can't tear it off the roll. Many Jewish families will tear off a bunch of it ahead of time but others will use tissues instead, and therein lies the problem. Toilet paper breaks down rapidly when wet, but tissues don't.

Jews are forbidden from "transferring between domains" on the Sabbath; basically you can't bring something from inside to outside or vice-versa. In order to get around this, they construct Eruv: usually (around here) 10' tall 2x2" poles with string tied between them, encircling the yard. Magic string makes your yard part of your house, so now you can carry stuff around all you want. In an extreme example, one of the Hasidic camps near my job constructed a pathway that was visible from the road for a mile or so before going over a hill. I have no idea where it ultimately went.

What makes all this so ridiculous to me is that these are loopholes. Why seek out loopholes in the commands of your beloved, benevolent God? I would think you would be happy and willing to adhere. Cheating the system is for oppressive systems that you don't believe in. It's a rebellious action to find loopholes in a law.

^Because people with these ridiculous belief systems are the ones responsible for so much of what's wrong in the world. Ultra-orthodox Jews, fundamentalist Christians, radical Muslims, militant Hindus, etc. are responsible for so much violence, suffering, and human rights abuses. To show the absurdity of their beliefs will hopefully make others question why anyone should listen to these nutjobs in the first place.

If all they were doing is stupid shit in their kitchens then I wouldn't give a fuck, nor would most others. But when many of these same people want to push every last Palestinian out of their 'promised land' because in the Bible it says God gave it to THEM, then we have a problem.

Note that this debate circle mostly around rights in the public services.

Some events that been push through this debate's strainer since some years now, to name a few:
A young Sikh men brought is Kirpan(tradional knife) to the elementary school. Should he be allowed to do so ?
In name of religion, a Muslim man refused to pass his driver's license test with a woman instructor.
Orthodox Jews required that windows giving view to women exercising be shaded in a community gym
Some muslims community are asking to be legally freed from work or study for the Friday noon prayer and be accommodate to do so.
In Ontario some people are legaly charge upon the Charia, should the Quebec allow such thing

Actual "Liberal" government (traditionally on the right) (generally get the early generation immigrant electorate) push the so called "reasonable accommodation" policy in public services kind of by opposition to the France "secular" policy in the public services. Reasonable accomodation advocate the right of expression in public services of religious symbol for main religion. The nationalist party (traditionally on the left)is pandering to the right wing of its party (the openly progressive and pro-union wing have been expelled from the party last week) and it's feeding what i'd called a negative nationalism which go along intolerance and racism on this issue.

This debate is now raging for more than a year here, although I didn't get into it, for the terms of the debate are completely distorted by partisan politics, and intermingled with emotional response arising from the erosion, or the fear of it, of "traditional culture". Consequences of a geopolitical-cultural encirclement and the ever-growing cultural and economic globalization.

So I didn't thought thoroughly about it. As for now, the questions i'm asking myself, is to where you draw the line ? What if my belief says that I should go naked to school ? Which beliefs will have rights and which won't ?

Hope that your distance will enable my fellow sifters to see clearer in this debate and help me by ricochet.

Red

>> ^blankfist:
I used to think there were wizards in my neighborhood, too. Until I realized they were orthodox Jews. Zing!


Reminds me of the first time I drove down La Brea. The sight of them in roving groups was... inspiring! I wanna be an Orthodox Jew.

I used to think there were wizards in my neighborhood, too. Until I realized they were orthodox Jews. Zing!

I can understand to some extent getting circumcised for religious reasons, although it does seem to conflict with the belief in not having "gashes in your flesh" or "incise any marks on yourselves" that prevents orthodox Jews from getting piercings and tattoos.

I don't understand Americans (and possibly other countries?) generally getting circumcised at birth as a matter of course. Most of the excuses given seem to have little/no evidence -- there's probably more evidence to promote removing tonsils and appendix at birth instead.

>> ^MaxWilder:
No, no, no. Religion is never the "cause". It is the gasoline that gets poured on sparks. It is the brightest beacon in an "us vs. them" mentality. "They" are heathens. "They" are infidels. "They" are goyim.

Do you argue that other fuels like nationalism are less volatile? If not, why are you attacking the gas instead of the spark? If you think humans are incapable of escaping from their violent nature, then what are you arguing about? We will always fight, and the reasons are irrelevant.


In the places around the world where there is war, how many of them are fought between peoples who share an identical religion? Sunnis hate the Shiites, Muslims hate the Jews, Protestants hate the Catholics. Nevermind that they all share the same ideological roots.

So what. People from different backgrounds fight? Wow, that's profound. The point isn't that religious backgrounds cause harm, but that humans find any difference between their tribe and another as worthy of fighting over.


How many conflicts would simply stagnate and die if the religion element was removed?

None.

The entire middle east would suddenly have no reason to fight. No holy land to contest. You talk about tribes and nations, but aren't they primarily defined by their religions as well?

No, they are not. They are defined by tribal and ethnic associations. Do you think a fanatical orthodox jew shares more with others that subscribe to his religion, or those who share his heritage, including those who do not visit temple every saturday? The "holy land" isn't disputed because of some temple, it's disputed because of its economic, political, and military importance.

>> ^Yehoshua:
First pull out, bulldoze the checkpoints and the walls, open the borders, remove all of the settlements, release all of Palestinians imprisoned in Israel, call off any pending assassinations, restore the borders to where they were in '67, then peace?

That would be a good start but this will never be initiated by the Israelis or the Palestinians, the only real power broker that could bring both parties to the table and diplomatic relations would be the US and the EU, without taking the sides of either party.

The US is too pro-Israel and too politically stubborn to stand up to Israel even though bringing this to a finality would resolve alot of middle eastern hostility to America. The Arabs see Israeli pilots in American planes dropping American bombs (even though most GCC states buy arms wholesale from the US themselves a fact under reported in local arab media).

The US should bring forward GCC states to the table as well and enforce their acceptance of Israel as a state. The sheer idiocy imposed in the Middle East against Israel is retarded Kindergarten stuff, simply used to divert public attention away from their own corrupt governments something especially seen in Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

UN forces would be needed to arrange security zones and provide disengagement, neither Israel nor Hamas would accept either as a security component in any shape or form. UN Peace keeping forces could be brought in and provide the same middle man entity as it did in the Balkan conflicts. Jerusalem would be best created as a separate state within a state along the lines of the Vatican to prevent religious tensions between both religious groups as there extremist orthodox Jews and Muslims.

With such imposition attacks would be far more rare as the majority of the population would be accepting of these terms and thus these attacks would gain no political or social traction, an unwilling population who sees no benefit and loss of hope through attacks becomes friendly and would oust terrorist themselves, this is not the case clearly now, as IDF bombs them so they support retaliation. Though it would not guarantee it as too much blood has been split, on both sides. But this is what happens when you let a conflict fester for 60 years.

Am surprised you think that hostile actions could only come from Palestine and not Israel. Israel is not exactly saintly when it comes to being rational in its application of force.

Even within Israel and Jewish communities around the world there is large dissent over IDF actions in Gaza as they have seen this happen time and time again and know that such hostile actions coupled with large civilian deaths (a third of which are children) would only create blow back.

The problem with Israel's arsenal of Nukes is that its a secret and was only discovered when an Israeli brought forth information about it. Your claim later on is false I believe, I don't trust any nation with nukes I do not believe one nation or the other is more sensible when it comes to the application of nuclear weapons.

To say Iran would detonate a nuke is to take that situation and not go into the details of what actually occurred, the IAEA has stated time and time again that Iran has no nuclear weapons programs. Iran as a whole is in economic straits and possess none of the technology to actually create a nuclear weapon. Iran's stance and progression and threats towards those means however is simply a symptom of the hypocritical notion that some nations can be trusted with nuclear technology and not others, not to mention the sudden international attention acquisition of nuclear arms creates. Look at how the US rushed to North Korea to placate it to disarm its nuclear programs. But I digress.

However I know full well that the scenario you and I propose will never see the light of day. Because no one gives a shit really.

Young Abdel Mahdi (Shahmay) was only 18 years old,
He was the youngest of nine children, never spent a night away from home.
And his mother held his photograph, opening the New York Times
To see the killing has intensified along the road to peace

There was a tall, thin boy with a whispy moustache disguised as an orthodox Jew
On a crowded bus in Jerusalem, some had survived World War Two
And the thunderous explosion blew out windows 200 yards away
With more retribution and seventeen dead along the road to peace

Now at King George Ave and Jaffa Road passengers boarded bus 14a
In the aisle next to the driver Abdel Mahdi (Shahmay)
And the last thing that he said on earth is "God is great and God is good"
And he blew them all to kingdom come upon the road to peace

Now in response to this another kiss of death was visited upon
Yasser Taha, Israel says is an Hamas senior militant
And Israel sent four choppers in, flames engulfed, tears wide open
And it killed his wife and his three year old child leaving only blackened skeletons

It's found his toddlers bottle and a pair of small shoes and they waved them in front of the cameras
But Israel says they did not know that his wife and child were in the car
There are roadblocks everywhere and only suffering on TV
Neither side will ever give up their smallest right along the road to peace

Israel launched it's latest campaign against Hamas on Tuesday
Two days later Hamas shot back and killed five Israeli soldiers
So thousands dead and wounded on both sides most of them middle eastern civilians
They fill the children full of hate to fight an old man's war and die upon the road to peace

"And this is our land we will fight with all our force" say the Palastinians and the Jews
Each side will cut off the hand of anyone who tries to stop the resistance
If the right eye offends thee then you must pluck it out
And Mahmoud Abbas said Sharon had been lost out along the road to peace

Once Kissinger said "we have no friends, America only has interests"
Now our president wants to be seen as a hero and he's hungry for re-election
But Bush is reluctant to risk his future in the fear of his political failures
So he plays chess at his desk and poses for the press 10,000 miles from the road to peace

In the video that they found at the home of Abdel Mahdi (Shahmay)
He held a Kalashnikov rifle and he spoke with a voice like a boy
He was an excellent student, he studied so hard, it was as if he had a future
He told his mother that he had a test that day out along the road to peace

The fundamentalist killing on both sides is standing in the path of peace
But tell me why are we arming the Israeli army with guns and tanks and bullets?
And if God is great and God is good why can't he change the hearts of men?
Well maybe God himself is lost and needs help
Maybe God himself he needs all of our help
Maybe God himself is lost and needs help
He's out upon the road to peace

Well maybe God himself is lost and needs help
Maybe God himself he needs all of our help
And he's lost upon the road to peace
And he's lost upon the road to peace
Out upon the road to peace.

The sad truth is that there is more than enough blame to go around on both sides. Both sides want to stake their claim as "the victem" when they are each the victem of circumstances they created. It is true that the Israeli's are far more powerful and their attacks are disproportianate and brutal, their opression of the Palestinian people is inhumane and their targeting of civilians is shameful. But it is also true that peace will never come until the Palestinians truly want peace. They protest when the Israelis kill their children, they must also protest when Hamas kills an Israeli child. One life is not worth more than another. I saw a picture of Orthodox Jews protesting the war in Gaza. I pray for the day I see Palestinians protesting Hamas and Hezbollah attacks on Israel. When I see that I will know that the Palestinians truly want peace. If they want the collective punishment to end they must collectively rise up against their own people who do not want peace.