"welcomed a relatively small number of European Jewish refugees in the 30’s while under British rule"
The Jewish population in Palestine approximately doubled from 84k in 1922 to 175k in 1931, and tensions already started pretty heavily then in 1931. The Arab narrative is pretty emphatic that the invasion start in the 1920s(and unspoken, the resistance and tension internally between Jew and Arab too).


"Then in the 40’s the Jewish minority, America, and England ignored their pleas to minimize immigration, ignored immigration laws, and invited a major invasion, so many European Jews came illegally..."

Come now, don't play dumb, you left out any reason why European Jews might do this outside of 'launching an invasion'. What other motive might 1940's Jewish Europeans have had to ignore immigration laws to migrate out of Europe????


That's where your narrative and mine clash irrevocably. I count the refugee flight from 1940s Europe to be even more desperate than the plight the Palestinians in Gaza face today. I can not accept your POV where upon arriving in Palestine and facing violence and discrimination there too, that it's just plain and simply obvious that the Jewish people's are invaders and bad guys with no right to an existence in the land they fled to.

You know, unless you want to credit Trump's MAGA approach to the southern border as valid cause it's awful similar, save that the Jewish people were facing much more desperate circumstances

In short-The small population of Arab natives along with a native Jewish minority welcomed a relatively small number of European Jewish refugees in the (edit:20’s and early) 30’s while under British rule (but with a date set for their independence by the League of Nations, a date that came and went without ever establishing a Palestinian state). Then in the 40’s (even by mid 30’s)the Jewish minority, America, and England ignored their pleas to minimize immigration, ignored immigration laws, and invited a major invasion, so many European Jews came illegally that the Arab natives quickly became the minority, then had all rights stripped by the now well armed invaders that now claimed their land and property…invaders that kept coming by the millions. How is that not an invasion of squatters?
It’s a complete abandonment of the Palestinian Mandate the Brits ruled under, which was allowed internationally after ww1 for the sole purpose of getting Palestine in a position to rule themselves, something the Brits failed to even try then actively sabotaged by supporting the mass immigration of millions of European Jews, and was the biggest possible “fuck off and die” to the Palestinian people that had cooperated fully with the international plan for their independent future that was unceremoniously stripped from them and handed to Israel.
From that point, details don’t matter so much. Invading occupying forces don’t get to whine because the natives won’t just go away and die….at least I’m not listening when they do. Want to stop being attacked, stop murdering innocents and taking land.

I wonder why you think Israel is not so dominant seeing as they already proved repeatedly their military dominance even when their neighbors band together. Not one of the countries you mentioned has an advanced military, they are last gen at best, really two or more generations behind, and have third world resources not trillions to spend. Iraq proved that advanced weapons beat numbers hands down every single time. Unless Iran gets a nuke capable of getting through the highest levels of missile defense on the planet, their “neighbors” (Palestines allies) pose no actual threat to Israel and a pretty minor threat to the expansionist settlers invading Palestine.

I never ignored any rolls of the neighbors supporting, arming, and instigating unrest…but those roles are minuscule compared to the actions of Israel. Nothing recruits for Hamas like the Israeli army. Nothing creates more terrorists than murderous settlers. No other factor has 1% the effect that Israel’s own actions do in creating enemies.
Murderous expansionist settlers should be eliminated with prejudice immediately. They are the biggest factor driving Israel’s murderous regime to murder more innocents.
If Israel acted civilly instead of treating the natives like the Nazis treated them, its neighbors couldn’t easily convince angry teens to pick up guns and shoot Israelis. Give the Palestinians something to lose, or they’ll have nothing to lose, a chip on their shoulder, and a clear enemy responsible for their plight. This is the official recipe for a terrorist.

Blaming the neighbors is like claiming N Carolina is RESPONSIBLE for all shootings in N Y because some guns used are procured there…nonsense. They are complicit, but minimally so. It’s the shooters motives you need to look at, not the store they use. Why are they so ready to sacrifice their lives to just shoot or throw rocks AT Israel (99/100 times hitting nothing)? Because they have nothing to lose but life in an ever shrinking ghetto ruled over by a foreign racist regime that wants them just gone and is more than happy to starve children to death and bomb refugee camps to accomplish that goal.
The neighbors didn’t invade, expel, ghettoize, and gleefully murder the Palestinian people, that was Israel.

Blaming the victims is not an argument that will win many over…and no question the Palestinian people are the TRUE and only victims.

Where are the European countries now…the same ones that facilitated the Jewish invasion should be obligated to enforce the borders, and/or take the Palestinian refugees and free them from the ghetto/prison Israel keeps them in….but none are.

Side note- I keep hearing people who support Palestinians described as anti semitic. It bears noting that European Jews, the VAST majority of Israelis, are NOT Semitic…but all Palestinians are. Being pro-Israel is actually and factually anti-Semitic.

Agreed, the details are many, but trying to see what will happen in the future is simple, it’s the same thing that’s been happening in the past. Israel will continue to illegally expand into territory they agreed belongs to Palestinians, will continue to militarily support and defend the murderous settlers that murder Palestinian families and steal their land constantly with no repercussion at all, and will use any resistance to that violent expansion as an excuse to abuse and further control and murder the remaining citizens while blaming them for their plight.
That’s exactly what’s happening today.
The areas hit by Hamas were all Palestinian land stolen by settlers with full military support, not in Israel but in what was recently Palestine. The expansionist invasion continues, it’s never stopped, and some people don’t understand why the remaining civilians imprisoned in the ghetto by Israel, often with no food, water, or medicine, might revolt and throw stones, but you totally understand why the invaders should get to flatten entire populated cities if one of theirs gets hurt.

The population of Israel is 15 times Gaza, but the casualties of this 70 year conflict are statistically all Palestinians. Just this latest conflict has seen under 1400 Israeli casualties and over 15000 Palestinian civilians…nearly 5000 YOUNG children. THE NORM IS MUCH WORSE, normally this retaliation would come after fireworks hurt 4 settlers almost killing one and damaging their stolen house.

There’s something Americans can do. Vote for a president that will cut all military aid to countries that commit war crimes regularly. Simple, but not easy.

Israeli military is only so strong because we support them. Without American weapons and support, Israel would be a long distant memory of a short lived immigrant invasion.

Yes, Hamas has rhetorically been as genocidal as Israel (also totally genocidal)…but they have zero ability to follow through, while Israel is actively committing genocide today with the most advanced weaponry on the planet we supply, and for the last 70 years. If Israel directly eliminated Palestine as they have stated they will, they would start another war with every neighbor, this time likely without support. Otherwise they would have followed through 40+ years ago. This newest “occupation” may be the last. There will be no rebuilding under occupation, and there are few habitable structures left in Gaza. It’s a small town of 750000 people flattened, under total embargo, and under a shoot on sight order from their oppressors.

Yes, Israel is fighting its neighbors….100% because of their treatment of Palestinians and blatant intent to ignore any borders in their expansion. Combined with Iran their neighbors aren’t 1/2 the military power Israel is thanks 100% to America supplying advanced weapons and defense platforms for decades at our expense.

Invading occupying military forces have no right to complain they are threatened…that’s like saying we should hand squatters AR-15s and grenades because they keep being threatened by the home owners and the neighborhood, and the squatters have every right to shoot neighbors in their own yards if they seem threatening, but the neighbors and home owners have no rights whatsoever, not even the right to leave home because that threatens the squatters. Not even the right of self defense when the squatters invite their family over to take the neighbor’s homes.
I prefer shooting squatters and dumping the bodies in the sewer where they belong. Zionists are all squatters….well armed squatters.

The squatters do not have the right to murder the neighbors who signed the petition to remove the violent squatters. The squatters are always the wrong party no matter what. Period. End on line.


Because Israel intends to act unilaterally and violently to ensure their defense and continued expansion, always at the expense of their neighbors, they should be abandoned by the rest of the world. Murderous expansionist invading occupying racist armies get zero sympathy, and there’s no such thing as an Israeli civilian, they do not exist, only those yet to be military, andtive military, and those in reserve…conversely there’s no such thing as a Palestinian soldier in Gaza…does not exist.

Militaries that attack civilian populations are war criminals…every time. Yes, that includes America in Afghanistan, but bears noting the Afghans protected Alkaida (sp?), the Palestinian government and most civilians do not support Hamas.
I do not want to be supporting foreign war crimes with my tax dollars.

Entirely one sided misleading propaganda.

It completely ignores and glosses over the millions of armed Jewish invaders that took over what’s now the ever expanding Israel, outnumbering the less well armed and unsupported Palestinians, quickly creating an apartheid state with inhuman treatment of the now minority native population displaced by European Jews that had no intention of sharing the land they had stolen from the native inhabitants with England’s and America’s blessing, nor of keeping to the borders they agreed to.

So much history was intentionally deleted or completely misrepresented here it’s more misinformation than informative.
The Palestinian people were subjugated by the Turks, then the British, and now by the genocidal Zionists.

The argument here is like if you imagine America has essentially no military at all having just won independence from Britain in 1948, and the French demanded 1/2 of Louisiana as it was originally a French nation and they suffered greatly in the war, including of course New Orleans, and Canada offered them 25% which they agree to, America said “hell no, why should we hand over our land to foreign invaders?”, and now America is blamed for France’s brutal invasion and unending dehumanization of and inhuman war crimes against and brutal subjugation and imprisonment of the people of the entire Louisiana territory that France now claims, with sights on more expansion.

*lies

Oh bobby…
Macgregor…the racist that said Muslim immigrants/refugees (whom he referred to as "Muslim invaders") come to Europe "with the goal of eventually turning Europe into an Islamic state" so should be turned away.
Who said “Vergangenheitsbewältigung” (which refers to the psychological process of the denazification of Germany post ww2) is a “sick mentality”.
The guy who under Trump argued that martial law should be instituted on the U.S.-Mexico border and argued for the extrajudicial execution of all those who cross the border at unofficial ports of entry (which, like they’ve done in Texas, means intentionally killing children).
The guy who congress refused to confirm as an ambassador for good cause.
And disgraced liar Tucker?

This is you guys? 😂

If the US had used directed weather as a weapon in Iraq, or breached levies to flood cities it would have been proper to laugh at the ironic disaster in New Orleans. Remember, the support for attacking the wrong country to retaliate for 9/11 was incredibly high (yes, thinly predicated on what are now known to be blatant lies…we didn’t care), we were not a nation of innocents…(I personally supported attacking Saidi Arabia and doing limited but overwhelming “police actions” in Afghanistan to completely destroy the actual perpetrators, then rebuild any collateral damage better and make friends, and never bought the rationale for invading Iraq beyond “they tried to kill my daddy”- GB…but who listens to me?)

I felt it was karma specifically balancing the universe for the Ukrainian dam they blew up in a terrorist action just over 2 months ago, not the continuing invasion of Ukraine that’s been ongoing and expanding continuously since 2014 when Ukrainian Crimea was invaded and “annexed” by Russia, a move seemingly universally applauded in Russia.

I think there’s delicious schadenfreude in the very religious country that continues to support repeated violent genocidal expansionism against peaceful neighbors thinly predicated on blatant lies (but that support is waning slightly as the war and truth comes home), the aggressor nation that among numerous war crimes intentionally destroyed a major dam to sew chaos destruction and death as they retreated from portions of Ukraine and set forest fires for the same reason having to deal with forest fires and dam failures as “acts of god”, not even from military retaliation.

I do feel a bit bad for the individuals and families if reports of 12 dead are true (it’s Russian news, so likely untrue), but that number is dwarfed by those intentionally killed in their names by the dam destruction in Ukraine.

Agreed on the narration…it was the only coverage I found at the time….well, there was this but even I found it in bad taste…

I didn't laugh or celebrate when Katrina hit New Orleans the year after the US invaded Iraq. I won't celebrate a dam bursting in far east Russia the year after they invade Ukraine.

I don't think the people of Ussuriysk deserved wildfires any more than the people of California.

It's not karma. If you want you can call it bad luck, or mankind suffering due to our own effect on the planet.

Plus, I would have thought an AI wrote that script except I think it would have done a better job. Am I missing context when it comes to 'the flood'? Badly written, badly voiced, but not quite enough for me to downvote.

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The context isn’t missing. You just don’t like it.
He was bragging and defending himself against accusations that he wanted to invade Iran by showing the secret plans and saying "Well, with Milley -- uh, let me see that, I'll show you an example. He said that I wanted to attack Iran. Isn't that amazing? I have a big pile of papers, this thing just came up. Look. This was him. They presented me this -- this is off the record, but -- they presented me this. This was him. This was the Defense Department and him, We looked at some. This was him. This wasn't done by me, this was him. All sorts of stuff -- pages long, look. Wait a minute, let’s see here. I just found, isn’t that amazing? This totally wins my case, you know. Except it is like, highly confidential. Secret. This is secret information. Look, look at this. This was done by the military and given to me."
This recording is from summer 2021 when Trump spoke to a team who was researching a book written by Mark Meadows and some of his own staff, none of which had clearance. This is the same document he said he could have declassified but didn’t, so it’s still top secret. Look!
The transcript is part of the now public indictment. You won’t hear about it on right wing propaganda outlets, because it’s all unthinkably treasonous.
The photos are also from that indictment, and some are reported to show party goers posing with the boxes full of stolen classified documents (faces blurred to protect the innocent party goers).

Pretty hilarious the insane convoluted theories you’re willing to accept without a shred of evidence just because some random guy on the internet said it was true once, but when presented with a sworn indictment containing direct audio tape and testimonial evidence of Trump sharing what he admitted were highly classified state secrets with random people with no security clearance and evidence he stored classified state secrets in ball rooms he rented out with them on stage complete with photos you need more context. 🤦‍♂️

Edit: Be honest with yourself if you can…we know the truth you don’t have to say it….if the charges were against Biden with the same evidence you would be screaming for the firing squad, wouldn’t you. (I would just insist on a trial first)

Bwaaaahahahaha.
You are the epitome of a laughing stock…you win…here’s your “biggest boob” trophy. 🏆
Oh you dumbshit….The Washington Free Beacon (a right wing publication) and Paul Singer, (a far right mega donor) paid for the Steele dossier about Trump, then later sold it to Clinton. That’s a fact.
Republicans created the Steele dossier, and most, like 90% of it, is confirmed to be correct, none of it was ever proven false (EG- if the dossier said an anonymous source said Russians have pee tape blackmail material against Trump and it is never found, the dossier wasn’t proven to be wrong at all, it just reported the claim). People (like Manafort) went to prison for charges stemming from it.

But you [are] a foolish ignorant man has no idea of any reality because you watch slanted one sided internet propaganda from anywhere as long as it’s anti American. It’s never correct, it never includes legitimate sources, and it’s 100% anti American, anti constitution twaddle and inconsistent lies.

Since you believe anything you see online, watch this unverified report and enjoy… https://youtube.com/shorts/_f1bYWlfApQ?feature=share
And…
https://youtube.com/shorts/lV-pDw6fUTY?feature=share

You said near 3 weeks ago that Bakhmut HAD fallen and was under 100% Russian control, proven by the faked Russian propaganda film of someone raising a Russian flag somewhere and declaring victory, but Bakhmut is still not taken, Russians are losing 1000 troops a day, and Ukraine just got 40000 more troops and billions more worth of current military equipment, Russia is using 70+ year old equipment they’ve never trained with and is dropping bombs on itself.
I’m taking sides, I’m with democracy and stability by treaty.
You are too-siding with Russia, despotism, expansionism, and lies.
Russia is losing ground, losing soldiers, losing equipment, losing borders, losing its long term stalemate with NATO, losing billions from sanctions, and is losing this war. Facts are facts, and you’ve never met a real fact you could agree with.

Russia entered Ukraine because they tossed out the Russia installed “president” (his first “election” was thrown out as a total farce). Yanukovych delayed signing a hugely popular pending association agreement with the EU, choosing to accept a hugely unpopular and bad for Ukraine Russian trade deal, leading to his removal from office and, surprise, cushy retirement in Russia.

NATO had nothing whatsoever to do with Russia breaking the treaty from the 80’s in which they and the United States guaranteed Ukraine’s sovereignty and border security in perpetuity if they gave up their nukes. That included Crimea, which Russia invaded too over nonsense lies.
They declared Crimea under terrorist attack (it wasn’t) and invaded “to protect the citizens”. They did the same in Ukraine, recognizing the terrorist separatists as the legitimate (unelected) government and declaring the real government were terrorists attacking peaceful Russians in Eastern Ukraine. (The same peaceful Russians that shot down a commercial airline full of innocent people completely uninvolved in their conflict).

Putin said the purpose of the operation was to "protect the people" in the predominantly Russian-speaking region of Donbas who he falsely claimed that "for eight years now, [had] been facing humiliation and genocide perpetrated by the Kyiv regime". Putin said that Russia sought the "demilitarisation and denazification" of Ukraine, and insisted Russia wouldn’t occupy any of Ukraine….all pure lies. He now says he intends to remove Ukraine from the map and Ukrainians from the gene pool.

It had absolutely nothing to do with NATO….NATO wasn’t considering giving Ukraine, Sweden, or Finland membership before the land grab invasions. You lackwit. If anything it was fear that Ukraine might join the EU….but really it was the loss of their installed Russian president that was beholding to the Kremlin, not any of the lame excuses they’ve made since.

You just love to rewrite history and always expect everyone else to be as ignorant of reality as yourself. Sadly for you, some people have memories longer than a methed out gnat and know why things happened, not just what the perpetrators of crimes say today that contradicts everything they said yesterday and before.
There’s no agreement to not expand NATO. Who told you that, Putin?

But has the actual history, or the nuclear treaty, or the ousting of the Russian planted president by the populace and installation of their chosen president (exactly what you hoped for with Trump on Jan 6 except instead of 2000 people it was the entire country performing a coup) been given on your fake propaganda websites? If so, you missed it all.

Such nonsense. Biden tried to remove the disastrous stay in Mexico policy, but was forced to keep Trump’s border rules until under three fucking weeks ago, dumbshit. He sent more back home to places like Hati than Trump did too. Derp.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-administration-ends-trump-era-remain-in-mexico-policy

Trump’s $40 billion fence hasn’t slowed immigration one percent, as expected. $40 billion more funding to border patrol would have been hundreds of times more effective….but not a monument to Trump.
Not using the border patrol to do useless, expensive political stunts instead of their job helps too.
Good BS blaming someone else. Republicans saying the borders are open is the number one reason people in South America believe it…that’s what THEY say, and why they’re coming now. This lies at least in part at their feet.

Funny how absolutely nothing was the president’s responsibility Jan 2017-21, but now everything in the country is his fault….except the things getting better like unemployment, wages, gdp, covid, the economy, gas prices recently, etc.

Bullshit. Trump never had any program to combat gang violence. Stop lying. His best plan was round up all Mexicans and you’ll get a lot of gang members too, but that’s a horrific and outrageous (and impossible) way to achieve that goal.

Calling them criminals invading is EXACTLY the point of this video, dummy. No one is barging into your house, most aren’t in the drug trade, for the vast majority crossing a line is the only crime they ever committed, and if our immigration/asylum policies were functional they wouldn’t have committed that crime. Just more nonsensical babbling from a ridiculous tool.

Funny how minor crime to save ones life is outrageous to you, but severe treasonous crimes for personal enrichment is a nothing burger. Stupid is as stupid does, and holy shit do you advocate for some stupid shit.

Denying asylum seekers entry was a crime when it started. Do it the right way or you are committing a crime every time you deny one. That’s Trump policy, no problem when he breaks the law, right? You don’t care a whit about law or crime, only about what you can pin on your rivals. Proven time and time and time and time and time and time again. You see no crime ever on the right, and fantasize about non existent crimes from the left, constantly.
Again, Barr lied and obstructed justice to protect Trump who lied and obstructed justice, court findings, but still not a crime because the statutes of limitations expired, right? No crime if they criminally slipped out of legal jeopardy….right?
And you also can’t see the hypocrisy. 🤦‍♂️

Answer this (I know you won’t, you are incapable of ever answering questions unless fed the far right answer, while I address every point you try to make every time)…how much has Abbot wasted on this stunt that hasn’t moved 1/2 days worth of immigrants out of state? Wouldn’t that money be better spent stopping crossings rather than with meaningless political stunts like this and the $10 billion waste of money with his border inspections that didn’t find a single stowaway or drug caches?

@bobknight33

Seriously, I'm finishing off an apple juice box my kiddo drank half of for dinner, clearly labeled on the top and I'll produce a picture if you like, JUICE BLEND FROM USA, CHINA, UKRAINE


Like. It's NOT Joe Biden's fault that the apple juice cost more. Trump's trade war with China that was "Very easy to win" is still ongoing at a stalemate's pace, raising the cost of most things out of china for US citizens alone. Then of course China had the lock entire cities down for crazy lengths of time that hindered shipping and production, again raising costs.

Ukraine got denied defense promises that the US had made prior to trump , then a few years later, Russia invades- leaving any product that uses wheat starved of raw material to work with.


That shit ain't Joe Biden's fault. You act like you care about fact finding.

WHAT IS BIDEN RESPONSIBLE FOR?
WHAT DID HE DO TO CAUSE THIS?
HOW DO YOU KNOW BIDEN'S ACTIONS ARE IN-FACT, CAUSING THIS PROBLEM?

Not if you excuse the invasion and takeover because they were DUE reparations, or even because they were fleeing the Nazis. I think reparations were due….by Germany, not Palestine.
Palestine paid them…and continues to pay them today.
It’s not feasible today, but it was directly after WW2, and that’s what we should have supported, even enforced.

Do you deny a massive influx of Jewish illegal immigrants invited by those who had been generously granted asylum? Do you deny they had the intent to take the land by force for a Jewish state? Do you deny most came after the war ended so weren’t fleeing war or Nazis? If not, where’s the disagreement? If so, citations please.

If they came illegally, absolutely, I object. If they came secretly intending to take the land of their benefactors by force, absolutely, I object. It was mostly in the later 40’s btw, largely AFTER the war ended. They weren’t fleeing Nazi persecution then.
Yes, when you come against the wishes of the local government intending to depose it, install your own, and expel the natives, that’s called invasion. That’s their history.

If I invite a refugee to live in my yard, and they invite their family, neighbors, and groups of armed militants who steal my house, land, and property and put me on skid roe, and the police turn a blind eye, even supporting the squatters because they’ve had it hard lately, do you think I have a right to get my friends to try to remove them, even if I wasn’t prepared to fight to the death unarmed and alone against their mob? If I do, do you still call me the aggressor? Come on. Don’t ignore the primary original crime that precipitated 70 years of atrocities.

Israel declared war by becoming a state by stealing one. I find it bullshit to blame the Palestinians neighbors for supporting their neighbor against a massive invasion and land grab by foreigners. Again, like Mexicans taking Texas back and you complaining if we tried to keep it, especially if we asked our Allie’s for help. Utter nonsense.

The Jewish people had already invaded and expelled the natives, removing all rights from any remaining. The two state solution = just go ahead and keep Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, and Utah because there’s already illegal immigrants there, in a few years you can have Kansas and Nevada, then keep expanding….those people are currently in Texas at this time. Again, you ignore the invasion, land theft, and expulsion to pretend Israel was already there…nonsense again.

Yes, it took more force to keep it from the armies of the allies of Palestine than it did to steal it from the recently liberated colony of Palestine that had no military. Duh.

What I see differently is I don’t ignore or forget the violent forced invasion by the Jewish zionists, nor the expulsion, theft from, and dehumanization of the natives, I don’t blame the natives for attempting to regain their ancestral home or properties that the Jewish state outright stole, nor do I ignore the horrific conditions those same people and their descendants have lived under for 70 years, constantly invaded further, no travel allowed, no imports, no water, no medicine, no weapons but treated like the aggressors and the criminal invaders for attempting to fight for THEIR OWN LAND, kept in shrinking ghettos, treated as sub humans to be exterminated, exactly what the Nazis did to the Jews but on a national level.

@newtboy
"I meant in a practical and ethical sense it would have made more sense for them to take part of Germany as actual reparations."
Isn't this a red herring, irrelevant point though unless they were given part of Palestine as 'reparations'? If we're gonna fix history with wishes lets go further and erase WW2.

"When they, as a people, invade a recently sovereign land and take it by force..."
It's your characterization here that you seem to just be asserting as true, but it's the heart of where we see it differently.

Are you objecting to the Jewish refugees illegally taking refuge alongside Jewish people already in Palestine in the 30s and early 40s? Your usage of the word 'invade' seems to suggest that.

Do you think I'm misrepresenting things as well when I pointed out it was the Arab states that declared war, immediately upon Israel embracing a two state solution? And let's be clear, it was a two state solution with borders essentially mirroring the existing land occupied by both Jewish and Arab peoples currently in Palestine at the time.

You declare it was taken by force, but the history as I know it has by far the largest use of force was 100% defensive after the declaration of war by all neighboring Arab states.

What are you seeing so differently at that point of history?