>> ^Lawdeedaw:

Wow wow wow, never once did I say American History X promoted anything remotely related to racism. I said the opposite. "Slashed into" doesn't mean "promoted." Slashed into means "hurt" racism... In fact, "slashed into" is about as far from promoting as possible.
Well that was the biggest fail from you I have seen...and I am only half kidding

I'm always puzzled when people respond to a misunderstanding this way. When someone misunderstands me, I generally consider that a failure on my part to make myself understood.

For some reason, some people who debate me seem to think failing to make themselves understood means they've scored some sort of victory over me.

>> ^Lawdeedaw:
Next, I meant you would detest the movie but not the free speech. You know, since the movie was made for one purpose only---capitalistic greed. Of course I am assuming the motives of the people who made the film, perhaps wrongly, but I doubt the makers had the best of intentions without the dollars.

Okay, for one, discussions about liberty are about what people should morally and legally be permitted or empowered to do, not their personal preferences. Also, to repeat myself, "positive liberty" isn't an ideology -- saying "positive liberty means you would detest the movie" makes as much sense as saying "red means you would detest the apple".

>> ^Lawdeedaw:
And, on the other note, conservatives are happy with both liberties--but only when both types of liberties are slanted in their favor (For example, see your own part where you mentioned free speech.)

True, but that's because they're hypocrites, not because they're happy with both kinds of liberty.

If I explain positive liberty to a conservative, they usually react the way you did at first, and reject it out of hand. Accepting positive liberty means that supporting liberty sometimes means requires more government intervention, not less. Right-wing people want to pretend that's always antithetical to liberty. It's not.

>> ^Lawdeedaw:
Liberals tend to favor both liberties less in that self-serving manner, but most still do manipulate them somewhat.

Heh, always with the equivalency. Why would liberals bother with willfully trying to misrepresent it? We don't go around asserting that our policy platform is the One True Freedom, and all who oppose us are against freedom, the way the right does.

We understand that you need to look at the whole picture, and not just whether the government is limiting people's behavior or not.

>> ^Lawdeedaw:
Hrm, your last point, that the alleged coercive aspect of freedoms impeding freedom is interesting.

As DFT is fond of saying, liberty for the cat is tyranny for the mouse.

It takes some thought, consideration, and debate to come up with what sorts of laws actually maximize liberty. That's what liberals believe, and we really, really, really, wish the right would participate in the debate as free thinking individuals, rather than just laying down ideological dogma and refusing to budge.

Wow wow wow, never once did I say American History X promoted anything remotely related to racism. I said the opposite. "Slashed into" doesn't mean "promoted." Slashed into means "hurt" racism... In fact, "slashed into" is about as far from promoting as possible.

Well that was the biggest fail from you I have seen...and I am only half kidding

Next, I meant you would detest the movie but not the free speech. You know, since the movie was made for one purpose only---capitalistic greed. Of course I am assuming the motives of the people who made the film, perhaps wrongly, but I doubt the makers had the best of intentions without the dollars.

And, on the other note, conservatives are happy with both liberties--but only when both types of liberties are slanted in their favor (For example, see your own part where you mentioned free speech.) Liberals tend to favor both liberties less in that self-serving manner, but most still do manipulate them somewhat.

Hrm, your last point, that the alleged coercive aspect of freedoms impeding freedom is interesting.

>> ^NetRunner:

>> ^Lawdeedaw:
A good example of negative liberty is found in the movie industry. American History X probably slashed into racism these days more (Since our young have the attention span of gnats and wouldn't listen to a long speech) than anything else (Warning, that was a very unverifiable statement.) Positive liberty would disdain such a video, one that is full of violence and racism and it's universal motivation is greed--to acquire property from the movie's sale. Of course, since it has a good "message" it would not be prohibited, of course...
But no, I read it right then.
You obviously don't understand liberty.
For one, American History X is ultimately a powerful story about tolerance, redemption, and forgiveness, and an illustration of the ugliness and pointlessness of racism. But for the sake of argument, let's assume it's actually promoting racism, as you say.
For starters, "positive liberty" doesn't say anything about the video. It's not an ideology, or a dogma.
I think you're trying to make a swipe at liberalism by saying it'd be okay with banning such a film, but the truth is we believe in free speech, and wouldn't want it banned, even if it was some sort of racist screed.
But what is free speech? Is it a positive or negative liberty?
In our legal system, it's barely considered a right. It's viewed as a negative liberty, sorta. The government can't constrain your speech, but private organizations may. Legally, you may spout whatever racist speech you like, but if your employer wants to fire you for doing so they can, and media companies can refuse to publish racist content if they like.
Some conservatives get confused about this (because they don't understand liberty), and think free speech is a positive liberty. They think that they should be legally protected from being fired for saying racist things, or that media companies should be legally compelled to publish whatever sort of racist screed they want to publish. Sometimes they even take this to a ridiculous extreme, and think free speech entitles them to a right to not be criticized for what they say.
See the difference yet?
Liberals generally are comfortable with both types of liberty being "real". Conservatives often assert that property, plus some narrow subset of negative liberty (freedom from constraint by government) is the very definition of liberty. Never mind that the net result of that is a very strict set of coercive limits being placed on people's ability to do as they please...

>> ^Lawdeedaw:

A good example of negative liberty is found in the movie industry. American History X probably slashed into racism these days more (Since our young have the attention span of gnats and wouldn't listen to a long speech) than anything else (Warning, that was a very unverifiable statement.) Positive liberty would disdain such a video, one that is full of violence and racism and it's universal motivation is greed--to acquire property from the movie's sale. Of course, since it has a good "message" it would not be prohibited, of course...
But no, I read it right then.

You obviously don't understand liberty.

For one, American History X is ultimately a powerful story about tolerance, redemption, and forgiveness, and an illustration of the ugliness and pointlessness of racism. But for the sake of argument, let's assume it's actually promoting racism, as you say.

For starters, "positive liberty" doesn't say anything about the video. It's not an ideology, or a dogma.

I think you're trying to make a swipe at liberalism by saying it'd be okay with banning such a film, but the truth is we believe in free speech, and wouldn't want it banned, even if it was some sort of racist screed.

But what is free speech? Is it a positive or negative liberty?

In our legal system, it's barely considered a right. It's viewed as a negative liberty, sorta. The government can't constrain your speech, but private organizations may. Legally, you may spout whatever racist speech you like, but if your employer wants to fire you for doing so they can, and media companies can refuse to publish racist content if they like.

Some conservatives get confused about this (because they don't understand liberty), and think free speech is a positive liberty. They think that they should be legally protected from being fired for saying racist things, or that media companies should be legally compelled to publish whatever sort of racist screed they want to publish. Sometimes they even take this to a ridiculous extreme, and think free speech entitles them to a right to not be criticized for what they say.

See the difference yet?

Liberals generally are comfortable with both types of liberty being "real". Conservatives often assert that property, plus some narrow subset of negative liberty (freedom from constraint by government) is the very definition of liberty. Never mind that the net result of that is a very strict set of coercive limits being placed on people's ability to do as they please...

Ah yes---own property, as opposed to it owning you. I don't believe one can own property, but I believe it can be claimed by someone.

And as goes the example of positive liberty, of course they can impose it with violence. They can also craft multiple ways around the whole argument by policies that hold down black individuals in other ways (Which they have done so a thousand different ways.) So instead of being out in the open, they are now cloak-and-dagger, which still is better than the old days I suppose.

A good example of negative liberty is found in the movie industry. American History X probably slashed into racism these days more (Since our young have the attention span of gnats and wouldn't listen to a long speech) than anything else (Warning, that was a very unverifiable statement.) Positive liberty would disdain such a video, one that is full of violence and racism and it's universal motivation is greed--to acquire property from the movie's sale. Of course, since it has a good "message" it would not be prohibited, of course...

But no, I read it right then.


>> ^NetRunner:

>> ^Lawdeedaw:
As far as positive liberty, it seems just a state of mind more so than the actual concept of liberty.
...
Negative liberty is the vastly closer-to-freedom expression. That's not to say positive "liberty" is a bad thing--but like I said, it is more state-of-mind than actual freedom (I guess you could argue that freedom of thought is the only freedom that matters. Or that freedom to agree as a society is still freedom...)
Of course, I could be reading the whole thing wrong...in which case, ah, it happens--we are human after all.
I think you're reading it wrong.
Let's set property aside for a minute. My favorite positive vs. negative liberty example comes from the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Specifically Title VII, which both Rand and Ron Paul said they oppose as being a limit on (negative) liberty.
Title VII basically bans discrimination in privately owned public spaces, like stores, restaurants, theatres, etc. It gives all people the positive liberty of being able to participate in the economy, no matter their race, gender, or creed. They can shop in any shop, apply for any job, and purchase services freely. They've been empowered to fulfill their own potential.
From the negative liberty (and absolutist property) point of view, this is a decrease in liberty -- it involves the state placing a constraint on people's ability to do as they wish with their property. They can no longer put a "Whites Only" sign in the window, and they cannot enforce that policy with violence anymore because an external constraint has been placed on them that limits their "freedom" to do so.
Thing is, "property" is also an external constraint inconsistent with negative liberty. If I want to drive a car, but have no money to buy, rent, or lease one, it's illegal for me to do so, even if there's thousands of idle ones available for me to use in the parking lot. That's an external constraint being imposed on me too.
The only real way to consider property compatible with liberty is by fiat (as libertarians/objectivists do), or to think of it as a sort of positive liberty. You are empowered to acquire objects, and become their master. You are empowered to bequeath that right to whomever you choose. You are entitled to fair compensation if someone damages or steals your property. You are entitled to fair compensation for your labor. And so on.
That's why I get so frustrated with people who have the gall to tell me that I don't understand liberty. Usually they're saying that because they haven't ever been exposed to the other side of the philosophical debate.

Try to imagine yourself in the Cretaceous Period. You get your first look at this "six foot turkey" as you enter a clearing. He moves like a bird, lightly, bobbing his head. And you keep still because you think that maybe his visual acuity is based on movement like T-Rex – he'll lose you if you don't move. But no, not Turkeyraptor. You stare at him, and he just stares right back. And that's when the attack comes. Not from the front, but from the side, from the other two raptors you didn't even know were there. Because Turkeyraptor's a pack hunter, you see, he uses coordinated attack patterns and he is out in force today. And he slashes at you with this – a six-inch retractable claw, like a razor, on the middle toe. He doesn't bother to bite your jugular like a lion, oh no … he slashes at you here [makes slashing motions below child's chest] or here … [above the groin] or maybe across the belly, spilling your intestines. The point is … you are alive when they start to eat you. So you know … try to show a little respect.

I don't even understand where this guy went. GnR was releasing videos and there was talk about their "Rock Opera", or whatever...then they just dropped off the face of the planet without a word. Of course Slash kept doing his thing, because he's actually talented, but I never knew what happened to the band. Granted, I never cared enough to find out but it still seems strange that there wasn't much explanation.

Reminds me of when I saw the edited-for-TV version of this movie years ago. After Rutger slashes Billy D and Stallone is trying to help him Stallone keeps yelling "that jerk! I can't believe that stupid jerk! You're gonna die, you jerk!"

For better or worse, finally a republican candidate who wants to challenge the status quo.

It's amazing he's even allowed to be nominated.

Let me get this straight, Dr. Paul.

You want to close all the military bases, end the wars, hobble the defense contractors, slash the budget to nothing, fire all the federal employees nation wide, then hold to a sort of good neighbor policy in terms of pollution and regulatory abuse in the Laissez faire right wing utopia you unleash on the world for four or more years.

A crack-pot Texas gynecologist who isn't Ivy League, and doesn't carry a Skull and Bones card in his wallet.

I was thinking that said something positive about America until I remember the last Republican vice presidential nomination.

Anyone who is a member the Republican party for any semblance of ideals and philosophy will vote for Ron Paul. The rest of them just like country music, kevin costner movies, flashy advertisements and anything else that doesn't require their concentration for more than five minutes.

The point about global warming is that all the available evidence shows that:
1. It is happening
2. It is man-made.

Why is that a problem? well, because we dont know what the consequences could be, we dont know how to stop the rising temperature or if theres a limit or if or when we can reverse the trend.

All of the above could happen, or it might not, some of it may not be due to GW and some of it may be. The fact is that we are messing with earths ecosystem, which is the very reason we are here in the first place. We grew up and evolved as a species on this planet, under these conditions, how will a rapid(geologically rapid 100-200 years) change in climate affect us as a species? how will it affect millions of other species? How will it affect weather? viruses? diseases? deserts? forests?

We don't know

Thats the point. some of the above are possible consequences of global warming*.

*or some denialist pulled it out of their ass and put it on the web so that other denialists could impress us all with their extensive lists.

>> ^quantumushroom:

Enviro-statist alarmists claim that all of the following have been (or will be) caused by global warming.

Agricultural land increase, Africa devastated, African aid threatened, air pressure changes, Alaska reshaped, allergies increase, Alps melting, Amazon a desert, American dream end, amphibians breeding earlier (or not), ancient forests dramatically changed, Antarctic grass flourishes, anxiety, algal blooms, Arctic bogs melt, Asthma, atmospheric defiance, atmospheric circulation modified, avalanches reduced, avalanches increased, bananas destroyed, bananas grow, better beer, big melt faster, billion dollar research projects, billions of deaths, bird distributions change, birds return early, blackbirds stop singing, blizzards, blue mussels return, boredom, Britain Siberian, British gardens change, bubonic plague, budget increases, building season extension, bushfires, business opportunities, business risks, butterflies move north.
Cardiac arrest, caterpillar biomass shift, challenges and opportunities, Cholera, civil unrest, cloud increase, cloud stripping, cod go south, cold climate creatures survive, cold spells (Australia), computer models, conferences, coral bleaching, coral reefs dying, coral reefs grow, coral reefs shrink , cold spells, cost of trillions, crumbling roads, buildings and sewage systems, cyclones (Australia), damages equivalent to $200 billion, Dengue hemorrhagic fever, dermatitis, desert advance, desert life threatened, desert retreat, destruction of the environment, diarrhoea, disappearance of coastal cities, diseases move north, Dolomites collapse, drought, drowning people, ducks and geese decline, dust bowl in the corn belt.
Early spring, earlier pollen season, Earth biodiversity crisis, Earth dying, Earth even hotter, Earth light dimming, Earth lopsided, Earth melting, Earth morbid fever, Earth on fast track, Earth past point of no return, Earth slowing down, Earth spinning out of control, Earth to explode, earth upside down, Earth wobbling, earthquakes, El NiZo intensification, erosion, emerging infections, encephalitis, Europe simultaneously baking and freezing, evolution accelerating, expansion of university climate groups, extinctions (human, civilisation, logic, Inuit, smallest butterfly, cod, ladybirds, bats, pandas, pikas, polar bears, pigmy possums, gorillas, koalas, walrus, whales, frogs, toads, turtles, orang-utan, elephants, tigers, plants, salmon, trout, wild flowers, woodlice, penguins, a million species, half of all animal and plant species, less, not polar bears), experts muzzled, extreme changes to California.
Famine, farmers go under, figurehead sacked, fish catches drop, fish catches rise, fish stocks decline, five million illnesses, floods, Florida economic decline, food poisoning, food prices rise, food security threat (SA), footpath erosion, forest decline, forest expansion, frosts, fungi invasion, Garden of Eden wilts, genetic diversity decline, gene pools slashed, glacial retreat, glacial growth, glacier wrapped, global cooling, global dimming, glowing clouds, Gore omnipresence, grandstanding, grasslands wetter, Great Barrier Reef 95% dead, Great Lakes drop, greening of the North, Gulf Stream failure, habitat loss, Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome, harvest increase, harvest shrinkage, hay fever epidemic, hazardous waste sites breached, heat waves, hibernation ends too soon, hibernation ends too late, high court debates, human fertility reduced, human health improvement, human health risk, hurricanes, hydropower problems, hyperthermia deaths.
Ice sheet growth, ice sheet shrinkage, inclement weather, infrastructure failure (Canada), Inuit displacement, Inuit poisoned, Inuit suing, industry threatened, infectious diseases, insurance premium rises, invasion of midges, island disappears, islands sinking, itchier poison ivy, jellyfish explosion, Kew Gardens taxed, krill decline, lake and stream productivity decline, landslides, landslides of ice at 140 mph, lawsuits increase, lawsuit successful, lawyers’ income increased (surprise, surprise!), lightning related insurance claims, little response in the atmosphere, Lyme disease.
Malaria, malnutrition, Maple syrup shortage, marine diseases, marine food chain decimated, marine dead zone, Meaching (end of the world), megacryometeors, Melanoma, methane emissions from plants, methane burps, melting permafrost, Middle Kingdom convulses, migration, migration difficult (birds), microbes to decompose soil carbon more rapidly, more bad air days, more research needed, mountain (Everest) shrinking, mountains break up, mountains taller, mudslides, next ice age, Nile delta damaged, no effect in India, nuclear plants bloom, oaks move north, ocean acidification, outdoor hockey threatened, oyster diseases, ozone loss, ozone repair slowed, ozone rise.
Pacific dead zone, personal carbon rationing, pest outbreaks, pests increase, phenology shifts, plankton blooms, plankton destabilised, plankton loss, plant viruses, plants march north, polar bears aggressive, polar bears cannibalistic, polar bears drowning, polar bears starve, polar tours scrapped, psychosocial disturbances, railroad tracks deformed, rainfall increase, rainfall reduction, refugees, reindeer larger, release of ancient frozen viruses, resorts disappear, rice yields crash, rift on Capitol Hill, rioting and nuclear war, rivers raised, rivers dry up, rockfalls, rocky peaks crack apart, roof of the world a desert, Ross river disease.
Salinity reduction, salinity increase, Salmonella, salmon stronger, sea level rise, sea level rise faster, sex change, sharks booming, shrinking ponds, ski resorts threatened, slow death, smog, snowfall increase, snowfall reduction, societal collapse, songbirds change eating habits, sour grapes, spiders invade Scotland, squid population explosion, squirrels reproduce earlier, spectacular orchids, stormwater drains stressed.
Taxes, tectonic plate movement, terrorism, ticks move northward (Sweden), tides rise, tourism increase, trade winds weakened, tree beetle attacks, tree foliage increase (UK), tree growth slowed, trees could return to Antarctic, trees less colourful, trees more colourful, tropics expansion, tropopause raised, tsunamis, turtles lay earlier, UK Katrina, Venice flooded, volcanic eruptions.
Walrus pups orphaned, war, wars over water, water bills double, water supply unreliability, water scarcity (20% of increase), water stress, weather out of its mind, weather patterns awry, weeds, Western aid cancelled out, West Nile fever, whales move north, wheat yields crushed in Australia, white Christmas dream ends, wildfires, wind shift, wind reduced, wine - harm to Australian industry, wine industry damage (California), wine industry disaster (US), wine - more English, wine -German boon, wine - no more French , winters in Britain colder, wolves eat more moose, wolves eat less, workers laid off, World bankruptcy, World in crisis, Yellow fever.

Enviro-statist alarmists claim that all of the following have been (or will be) caused by global warming.


Agricultural land increase, Africa devastated, African aid threatened, air pressure changes, Alaska reshaped, allergies increase, Alps melting, Amazon a desert, American dream end, amphibians breeding earlier (or not), ancient forests dramatically changed, Antarctic grass flourishes, anxiety, algal blooms, Arctic bogs melt, Asthma, atmospheric defiance, atmospheric circulation modified, avalanches reduced, avalanches increased, bananas destroyed, bananas grow, better beer, big melt faster, billion dollar research projects, billions of deaths, bird distributions change, birds return early, blackbirds stop singing, blizzards, blue mussels return, boredom, Britain Siberian, British gardens change, bubonic plague, budget increases, building season extension, bushfires, business opportunities, business risks, butterflies move north.

Cardiac arrest, caterpillar biomass shift, challenges and opportunities, Cholera, civil unrest, cloud increase, cloud stripping, cod go south, cold climate creatures survive, cold spells (Australia), computer models, conferences, coral bleaching, coral reefs dying, coral reefs grow, coral reefs shrink , cold spells, cost of trillions, crumbling roads, buildings and sewage systems, cyclones (Australia), damages equivalent to $200 billion, Dengue hemorrhagic fever, dermatitis, desert advance, desert life threatened, desert retreat, destruction of the environment, diarrhoea, disappearance of coastal cities, diseases move north, Dolomites collapse, drought, drowning people, ducks and geese decline, dust bowl in the corn belt.

Early spring, earlier pollen season, Earth biodiversity crisis, Earth dying, Earth even hotter, Earth light dimming, Earth lopsided, Earth melting, Earth morbid fever, Earth on fast track, Earth past point of no return, Earth slowing down, Earth spinning out of control, Earth to explode, earth upside down, Earth wobbling, earthquakes, El NiZo intensification, erosion, emerging infections, encephalitis, Europe simultaneously baking and freezing, evolution accelerating, expansion of university climate groups, extinctions (human, civilisation, logic, Inuit, smallest butterfly, cod, ladybirds, bats, pandas, pikas, polar bears, pigmy possums, gorillas, koalas, walrus, whales, frogs, toads, turtles, orang-utan, elephants, tigers, plants, salmon, trout, wild flowers, woodlice, penguins, a million species, half of all animal and plant species, less, not polar bears), experts muzzled, extreme changes to California.

Famine, farmers go under, figurehead sacked, fish catches drop, fish catches rise, fish stocks decline, five million illnesses, floods, Florida economic decline, food poisoning, food prices rise, food security threat (SA), footpath erosion, forest decline, forest expansion, frosts, fungi invasion, Garden of Eden wilts, genetic diversity decline, gene pools slashed, glacial retreat, glacial growth, glacier wrapped, global cooling, global dimming, glowing clouds, Gore omnipresence, grandstanding, grasslands wetter, Great Barrier Reef 95% dead, Great Lakes drop, greening of the North, Gulf Stream failure, habitat loss, Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome, harvest increase, harvest shrinkage, hay fever epidemic, hazardous waste sites breached, heat waves, hibernation ends too soon, hibernation ends too late, high court debates, human fertility reduced, human health improvement, human health risk, hurricanes, hydropower problems, hyperthermia deaths.

Ice sheet growth, ice sheet shrinkage, inclement weather, infrastructure failure (Canada), Inuit displacement, Inuit poisoned, Inuit suing, industry threatened, infectious diseases, insurance premium rises, invasion of midges, island disappears, islands sinking, itchier poison ivy, jellyfish explosion, Kew Gardens taxed, krill decline, lake and stream productivity decline, landslides, landslides of ice at 140 mph, lawsuits increase, lawsuit successful, lawyers’ income increased (surprise, surprise!), lightning related insurance claims, little response in the atmosphere, Lyme disease.

Malaria, malnutrition, Maple syrup shortage, marine diseases, marine food chain decimated, marine dead zone, Meaching (end of the world), megacryometeors, Melanoma, methane emissions from plants, methane burps, melting permafrost, Middle Kingdom convulses, migration, migration difficult (birds), microbes to decompose soil carbon more rapidly, more bad air days, more research needed, mountain (Everest) shrinking, mountains break up, mountains taller, mudslides, next ice age, Nile delta damaged, no effect in India, nuclear plants bloom, oaks move north, ocean acidification, outdoor hockey threatened, oyster diseases, ozone loss, ozone repair slowed, ozone rise.

Pacific dead zone, personal carbon rationing, pest outbreaks, pests increase, phenology shifts, plankton blooms, plankton destabilised, plankton loss, plant viruses, plants march north, polar bears aggressive, polar bears cannibalistic, polar bears drowning, polar bears starve, polar tours scrapped, psychosocial disturbances, railroad tracks deformed, rainfall increase, rainfall reduction, refugees, reindeer larger, release of ancient frozen viruses, resorts disappear, rice yields crash, rift on Capitol Hill, rioting and nuclear war, rivers raised, rivers dry up, rockfalls, rocky peaks crack apart, roof of the world a desert, Ross river disease.

Salinity reduction, salinity increase, Salmonella, salmon stronger, sea level rise, sea level rise faster, sex change, sharks booming, shrinking ponds, ski resorts threatened, slow death, smog, snowfall increase, snowfall reduction, societal collapse, songbirds change eating habits, sour grapes, spiders invade Scotland, squid population explosion, squirrels reproduce earlier, spectacular orchids, stormwater drains stressed.

Taxes, tectonic plate movement, terrorism, ticks move northward (Sweden), tides rise, tourism increase, trade winds weakened, tree beetle attacks, tree foliage increase (UK), tree growth slowed, trees could return to Antarctic, trees less colourful, trees more colourful, tropics expansion, tropopause raised, tsunamis, turtles lay earlier, UK Katrina, Venice flooded, volcanic eruptions.

Walrus pups orphaned, war, wars over water, water bills double, water supply unreliability, water scarcity (20% of increase), water stress, weather out of its mind, weather patterns awry, weeds, Western aid cancelled out, West Nile fever, whales move north, wheat yields crushed in Australia, white Christmas dream ends, wildfires, wind shift, wind reduced, wine - harm to Australian industry, wine industry damage (California), wine industry disaster (US), wine - more English, wine -German boon, wine - no more French , winters in Britain colder, wolves eat more moose, wolves eat less, workers laid off, World bankruptcy, World in crisis, Yellow fever.

>> ^snoozedoctor:

"poor people" pay no taxes in the US. If the bottom 50% of US income earners pay no federal income tax, how are the "poor" burdened with an excessive tax load?

According to Romney, they're paying the corporate tax, because business owners just pass those costs on to the poor by raising prices on products, or slashing wages and jobs.

Also income taxes aren't the only taxes. Low income wage earners also pay payroll taxes for Medicare and Social Security, plus sales tax, property tax, etc.

>> ^snoozedoctor:
True that the top 10% of wage earners in the US take in slightly less than 50% of gross income, and pay about 70% of federal income taxes. So, the real argument is not that the rich aren't paying the taxes, they are, it's that the rich are rich, damn them.


Whose argument?

I think the general position of the left is that if we're going to make changes to government policy to close the deficit, someone's gotta give up something. The left doesn't see the past 30 years as being a period where the poor have been milking the rich dry -- on the contrary, it appears to have been the reverse. So if we're gonna change something about our fiscal policy, it should be the people at the top giving up the massive tax cuts they've enjoyed over the last 3 decades, not the people who're already struggling giving up the meager benefits they've been promised.

Tags for this video have been changed from 'fergie, black, eyed, pea, slash, guns n roses, thong, leather' to 'fergie, black eyed peas, slash, guns n roses, thong, leather' - edited by xxovercastxx

>> ^Yogi:

Fergie has a damn good body for her age.


She went to my high school, but I don't remember her there.

Blocked for disabling my referrer.

>> ^gwiz665:

blocked for me too.
Also, Fergie can't sing.


Sorry man I beg to differ, any one that can cover a Heart song can certainly sing.

http://videosift.com/video/HEART-barracuda-live-w-fergie

>> ^quantumushroom:

Now that your tepid squirt gun of insults is sucking air, maybe you'd like some FACTS.
Medicare Fraud: A $60 Billion Crime

Poverty in America - based on US Census
Speaking of deluded "logic", is yours really 'If it doesn't happen to me, it doesn't happen anywhere.' ?????????????????????????????

>> ^VoodooV:
>> ^quantumushroom:
You gotta bunch of fatalist losers in the audience who believe life is a zero-sum game, that is, in order for one person to win, another must lose. Not one of them has the understanding that wealth is not finite slices of pie, the pie itself is getting larger all the time.
America's "poor" are the wealthiest poor in the world. Most own their own homes, have two cars, air-conditioning, 2 computers, 3 TVs, etc. And that's on top of "free" food and health care.
I'm not so cavalier as to believe losing 60 billion dollars EVERY YEAR to fraud, waste and abuse means nothing, but it really highlights the liberal mindset. When you're taking someone else's money at gunpoint, you really don't care how hard they had to work to earn it.

Like Spitzer said to Kibbe, "You're so wrong on so much of that I don't know where to begin"
You're either incompetent, deliberately lying, or both.
Speaking for myself, by QM's deluded logic, I obviously don't live in America, because I don't even have HALF of what QM claims the poor have.
But that can't be....I'm a public employee, I should have 10 cars and 5 homes if that were true.



What's your point QM? As others have already said. Proving that there is fraud does nothing other than show that things need to be improved. But that's not what you want to do, you want to slash the budget. Slashing budgets doesn't fix fraud...fixing fraud fixes fraud. Pretty basic concept there. It's really quite disappointing. Conservatives cry all the time about how they want efficient government...but they have some pretty inefficient ways to do it.

As to your second link, nice try, but The Heritage Foundation is an obviously conservative movement and thus, obviously biased. But let's go simpler than that. You...and THF made the claim that the "poor" have their own home, have two cars, air conditioning, two computers and 3 TVs. Fortunately, I qualified MY remarks with "Anecdotally" You do know what that word means right, QM? I know it's a big word and conservatives don't like big words, you like manipulating issues with sound bites, I know, but you guys hate big words. So I never claimed that my experiences speak for everyone. So nice try at a strawman, but QM fails again.

But more to the point. THF is full of shit, or their definition of poor is way the heck off or poor compared to Beverly Hills or something . While I do have air conditioning, I rent, I certainly don't have two cars, I certainly don't have two computers or three TVs and I know I'm doing FAR better than most of the people I work with. And again, I work in State Gov't and contrary to your marching orders from Fox News, we don't make a whole hell of a lot. So if, according to THF, I'm apparently lower than poor, but wait, I'm doing better than most of my peers, so they have to be even lower than the lowest of the poor...so again, either THF is incompetent, or much more likely, since THF is clearly a conservative, thus biased, organization, they are either exaggerating, or outright lying.

You clearly don't know what poor is, QM. You lose...again.

Troll elsewhere