>> ^silvercord:

>> ^volumptuous:
This planet would be one hell of a lot more fun of religious zealots stopped blowing eachother up over claims to some piece of shit desert in the middle of nowhere.
Horowitz is a well known hardcore piece of shit who has backed wholesale slaughter and land grabs for years and years. This girl is an idiot. Both of them should just kill eachother.

"if relgious zealots stopped blowing each other up . . . "
"Both of them should just kill each other."
Well? Which way do you want it?


I should've been more clear.

The zealots should kill eachother, not the general populations who are just trying to go about their days and feed their kids and work their shitty jobs and not die of dysentery.

TLDR.

PS: Both sides are crazy pants. A little bit like this thread.

>> ^bcglorf:

He merely said that people will not tolerate this woman espousing her hateful and ill conceived views, but we extend that courtesy to the Jews/Israelies who want to wipe out the Palestinians, likewise hateful and ill conceived.
He went a touch further initially and characterized all opposition to this girl as hypocrites that extend the courtesy to Israeli and Jewish acts of terrorism and excess. That by extension paints all Israelis as wanting to wipe out the Palestinians, and I do consider that a hateful view and will oppose it as long as it remains untrue. He did later clarify that as too broad though, and my last response had been to Drachen_Jager.
You've done the instinctive jump (I'm surprised you didn't start waving the holocaust flag sooner tbh) to go on the offensive as if Longde was some jew hating white supremicist when you have nothing, from what he has said, to base that on.
And yet you both failed the litmus test. When Drachen_Jager stated his willingness to extend leniency to oppressed peoples, like Hamas and Hezbollah, I pointed back to 1940's Israel and asked if the same standards applied then. Longde declared that to be revisionist history and you've made it clear you consider the Israeli war of independence a terrorist act. I never said anything about Israel's many crimes being justified because of the holocaust. I just stated that when considering the civil war between Jew and Arab in 1940's Palestine, the holocaust absolutely sways me in support of the Jewish minority. All the more so when the entirety of the Arab world decided to join in and attempt to exterminate the Jewish people for the second time in a single decade.
Would you condemn the extremists who helped establish the Jewish state?
Yes. Would you condemn the very establishment of that Jewish state because of those extremists? I certainly am not willing to, and if you are I'd ask if Hamas has then similarly disqualified the Palestinians from the right to a Palestinian state?
For the record (in case you've actually read this far), I condemn Hammas and Hezbollah for their crimes. I condemn the right wing government of Israel for it's crimes and it's Nazi-esque policies. I condemn any Jew who supports them and wants to see Palestine gone. I condemn Jews who misuse terribly the suffering of those involved in the Holocaust to silence dissent to Israels current facist actions.
And I can agree whole heartedly with this entire paragraph. We see 100% eye to eye on it. I do differ in going a touch further though and requiring the observation that Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, Iran and a great many arab populations in surrounding countries are all as nazi-esque in their racism towards Israel. Hamas and Hezbollah also go further still in being less discriminate in their hatred and use of violence. The only thing holding them back from exterminating all Israeli's is they lack the ability to do it. At least the right wing nuts in Israel like Netanyahu are held back by the will of the moderate Israeli's, because there can be no mistaking that if Netanyahu's kind wished to turn the West bank and Gaza into lifeless rubble they could likely do it inside a week.
I'm perfectly content to condemn Israel for it's crimes and extremists. I will not settle for disproportionate blame being laid on them for all the hate, violence and atrocities befalling the region around them. The Palestinians aren't the only ones who's extremists have arisen from existential threats to their people.

So good! Nicely said.

>> ^volumptuous:

This planet would be one hell of a lot more fun of religious zealots stopped blowing eachother up over claims to some piece of shit desert in the middle of nowhere.
Horowitz is a well known hardcore piece of shit who has backed wholesale slaughter and land grabs for years and years. This girl is an idiot. Both of them should just kill eachother.

>> ^volumptuous:

This planet would be one hell of a lot more fun of religious zealots stopped blowing eachother up over claims to some piece of shit desert in the middle of nowhere.
Horowitz is a well known hardcore piece of shit who has backed wholesale slaughter and land grabs for years and years. This girl is an idiot. Both of them should just kill eachother.


"if relgious zealots stopped blowing each other up . . . "

"Both of them should just kill each other."

Well? Which way do you want it?

This planet would be one hell of a lot more fun of religious zealots stopped blowing eachother up over claims to some piece of shit desert in the middle of nowhere.

Horowitz is a well known hardcore piece of shit who has backed wholesale slaughter and land grabs for years and years. This girl is an idiot. Both of them should just kill eachother.

Tags for this video have been changed from 'islam, horowitz, msa, hamas, israel' to 'islam, horowitz, msa, hamas, israel, hezbollah, muslim' - edited by blankfist

Here is what I wrote above: "I define her opposition as the people on the other side using extrremism and killing to achieve their ends. Perhaps I have defined it too broadly. I certainly don't think it encapsulates all Jews or Isrealis, but I do think it includes the Israeli government and military."

Again, you are putting words in my mouth, unless all Israelis and all Jews use extremism and killing.


>> ^bcglorf:

He merely said that people will not tolerate this woman espousing her hateful and ill conceived views, but we extend that courtesy to the Jews/Israelies who want to wipe out the Palestinians, likewise hateful and ill conceived.
He went a touch further initially and characterized all opposition to this girl as hypocrites that extend the courtesy to Israeli and Jewish acts of terrorism and excess. That by extension paints all Israelis as wanting to wipe out the Palestinians, and I do consider that a hateful view and will oppose it as long as it remains untrue. He did later clarify that as too broad though, and my last response had been to Drachen_Jager.
You've done the instinctive jump (I'm surprised you didn't start waving the holocaust flag sooner tbh) to go on the offensive as if Longde was some jew hating white supremicist when you have nothing, from what he has said, to base that on.
And yet you both failed the litmus test. When Drachen_Jager stated his willingness to extend leniency to oppressed peoples, like Hamas and Hezbollah, I pointed back to 1940's Israel and asked if the same standards applied then. Longde declared that to be revisionist history and you've made it clear you consider the Israeli war of independence a terrorist act. I never said anything about Israel's many crimes being justified because of the holocaust. I just stated that when considering the civil war between Jew and Arab in 1940's Palestine, the holocaust absolutely sways me in support of the Jewish minority. All the more so when the entirety of the Arab world decided to join in and attempt to exterminate the Jewish people for the second time in a single decade.
Would you condemn the extremists who helped establish the Jewish state?
Yes. Would you condemn the very establishment of that Jewish state because of those extremists? I certainly am not willing to, and if you are I'd ask if Hamas has then similarly disqualified the Palestinians from the right to a Palestinian state?
For the record (in case you've actually read this far), I condemn Hammas and Hezbollah for their crimes. I condemn the right wing government of Israel for it's crimes and it's Nazi-esque policies. I condemn any Jew who supports them and wants to see Palestine gone. I condemn Jews who misuse terribly the suffering of those involved in the Holocaust to silence dissent to Israels current facist actions.
And I can agree whole heartedly with this entire paragraph. We see 100% eye to eye on it. I do differ in going a touch further though and requiring the observation that Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, Iran and a great many arab populations in surrounding countries are all as nazi-esque in their racism towards Israel. Hamas and Hezbollah also go further still in being less discriminate in their hatred and use of violence. The only thing holding them back from exterminating all Israeli's is they lack the ability to do it. At least the right wing nuts in Israel like Netanyahu are held back by the will of the moderate Israeli's, because there can be no mistaking that if Netanyahu's kind wished to turn the West bank and Gaza into lifeless rubble they could likely do it inside a week.
I'm perfectly content to condemn Israel for it's crimes and extremists. I will not settle for disproportionate blame being laid on them for all the hate, violence and atrocities befalling the region around them. The Palestinians aren't the only ones who's extremists have arisen from existential threats to their people.

>> ^bcglorf:

I have never heard him condemn the extremism on the other side, and I have read many of his tripes encouraging it.
As for the girl, all I have to go on is that exchange.

So you condemn Horowitz for failing to condemn Israel.
Are you then ready to condemn Hamas and Hezbollah?
Will you decry the girl in the video for her failure to do so as well?


Not to put too fine a point on it but you are off in cloud cuckoo land...

Longde never said he supported Hammas or Hezbollah. He merely said that people will not tolerate this woman espousing her hateful and ill conceived views, but we extend that courtesy to the Jews/Israelies who want to wipe out the Palestinians, likewise hateful and ill conceived...

You've done the instinctive jump (I'm surprised you didn't start waving the holocaust flag sooner tbh) to go on the offensive as if Longde was some jew hating white supremicist when you have nothing, from what he has said, to base that on...

Of course, your mindset is blazened quite proudly on your sleeve...

"I'm content to see it as a triumph of the Jewish people after having just lost several million to the holocaust 5 years earlier."

A triumph? Is that what we are calling terrorism now?

And I quote:

"The unified resistance movement in Palestine split up in July 1946, after Irgun's bombing of the British Military Headquarters, the King David Hotel bombing, which killed 92, mostly civilians."

Mostly civilians. Would you condemn the extremists who helped establish the Jewish state? If not, you are about as reasonable as the woman in the clip...

For the record (in case you've actually read this far), I condemn Hammas and Hezbollah for their crimes. I condemn the right wing government of Israel for it's crimes and it's Nazi-esque policies. I condemn any Jew who supports them and wants to see Palestine gone. I condemn Jews who misuse terribly the suffering of those involved in the Holocaust to silence dissent to Israels current facist actions.

I'd hazard a guess that Longde would have a similar mindset.

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Horowitz is a complete tool. Fuck him.

>> ^longde:

Revisionist history



Please enlighten me to what part is revisionist.

I'm quite afraid that the narrative that describes Israel's independence as foreign Jews occupying the homeland of Arab Palestinians often starts it's revisions with questioning the holocaust itself.

Not even Arab scholars question the main points I've outlined. The Jewish Palestinians had significant numbers before 1900, and the 40's saw a civil war between Jewish and Arab Palestinians. Arab scholars are even well agreed that the entire Arab world united to drive the Jews into the sea. The main difference between their version and the one I described is that they remember it as the great catastrophe, for the failure to exterminate all Jewish Palestinians. I'm content to see it as a triumph of the Jewish people after having just lost several million to the holocaust 5 years earlier.

I can't tell how much of her responses are sarcasm, and that is the determiner for judging her responses. However, this Horowitz fella seems to be a pretty hardlined zionist. He places her in a situation where she can't state a middleground and sets up a false dichotomy. Hezbollah is responsible for some mean shit, but look at what their actions are against. Folks say that Israel doesn't want to exterminate anybody. Thats bullshit and shows a lack of study or critical analysis of the situation. Israel's entire existence is contingent on Imperialism. They are a modern example of "Manifest Destiny v. Native Americans". Fuck Israel, and fuck Horowitz for defending a racist, apartheid system. As far as the woman is concerned, her sarcasm was the incorrect approach to the situation, and she shouldn't have responded to the false dichotomy. Easy to say these things in my shoes though, not her's, at that moment n all that.

The scarf she's wearing that Horowitz commented on is called a Keffiyeh, which is a fairly traditional Arab garment. The specific black and white pattern on hers is mostly associated with Yasser Arafat, hence the Terrorist reference.

Revisionist history

>> ^bcglorf:

Honestly I find less to blame in persecuted peoples who promote hate speech in an attempt to fight their persecutors than I find with persecutors who promote hate speech in an effort to villainize an entire population to the point where it's "overlooked" by world governments when they simply "relocate" those people they don't like away from prosperous land and into tenements.
I don't think I sufficiently denounced this folly before.
Harken back to 1940's Palestine, when the Arab majority was persecuting the Jewish minority. Remember 1949, when the Jewish survivors of the holocaust finally had enough of being persecuted in Palestine as well, and rose up to fight for their independence. Do you have the same difficulty condemning Israel's violence then?
Let's go further, can you cheer with me as the Jewish survivors of the holocaust fought for independence only to be faced by the united wrath of the entire Arab League of Nations. As they were outnumbered 100-1, by forces set on finishing what Hitler nearly accomplished only a few short years earlier, can you spare a cheer for their ultimate victory and survival?
I can understand attributing some leniency when a desperate people resorts to extremes. What I fail to understand is where absolutely non of that leniency is extended to Israel in any way shape or form. Hamas and Hezbollah aren't a direct existential threat to Israel, but they ARE proxies for the multiple nations that do have that potential.

See above>> ^bcglorf:

I have never heard him condemn the extremism on the other side, and I have read many of his tripes encouraging it.
As for the girl, all I have to go on is that exchange.

So you condemn Horowitz for failing to condemn Israel.
Are you then ready to condemn Hamas and Hezbollah?
Will you decry the girl in the video for her failure to do so as well?