Nah - Hamas, PLO, Hezbollah, whatever. Name your Palestinian terrorist regime du' jour. They're all the same animal. The objective is the removal of the state of Isreal by whatever means necessary. Isreal could be as armed with only drinking straws and gentle as a Kleenex and it wouldn't matter beans to the Palestinians or other terror states.

And the Arabs DO 'help' the Palestinians... By arming them with rockets, rifles, and bombs. Iran, Syria, Lebanon - they're all funnelling weapons to the Palestinians. Maybe if the Isrealis can safely ignore the Arab gun to thier head, a peaceful solution can be found. Maybe the Arabs would be better off halting the weapons and giving more food & jobs. But the dirty secret is that the Arabs hate the Palestinians too. They just hate Isreal more and are keeping the Palestinians poor and angry so they can have a useful tool of angry terrorists to do the dirty work they're too afraid to do themselves after Isreal gave Egypt such a spankering.

I would say that the military incursion into Gaza has been largely a failure for Israel, not simply because of the negative world wide publicity from the large number of civilian deaths but also because it didn't achieve the kind of results that the IDF used to generate when dealing with Fatah in the past.

Back then Israel would bomb the shit out of Fatah and it's resistance would ebb away very quickly, Arafat would reach out and discuss a truce, a wedge would be created between the Palestinians and the Fatah government.

This was not the case in Gaza, resistance continued right up to the time of the cease fire, the Palestinians did not oust Hamas as Israel hoped in favor of the discredited Dahlan, Hamas never surrendered.

This has been a build up ever since the IDF failure in eliminating Hezbollah, the Arab world is rife with talk of defeating the once undefeatable Israel which with all it's high tech equipment, man power and bombs has not been able to silence Hamas or Hezbollah.

There has also been a large world wide reaction to Israel's acts, which in all its shock and awe only managed to kill 2 high ranking Hamas members, which is ineffective now since after years of IDF assassinations resistance groups have learned to operate in cell structures with no centralized power figure.

>> ^Yehoshua:
You're ignorant, Farhad. Yehoshua is Joshua. Which is my name. Yeshua, on the other hand...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua_(name)

There is debate about the Hebrew phrasing of Jesus between Yehoshua, Yeshua or Yeshu by references from Numbers, the old testament and writings of the time. But that's besides the point. But lets not get into a theological discussion here.

Do you disagree that the elections that put Hamas in power were free?

Elections are the only form of expression the Palestinians had in opposing the Fatah government, it was their way of showing a loss of confidence in Fatah which at the time was in utter turmoil. Remember at the time Condi Rice and Bush as a whole were pushing for democratic action in the Middle East as a whole (ironically not with Egypt or Saudi Arabia).

When Hamas won Israel and the US basically went around Hamas and started to reinstate Fatah as the power representation of Palestine. Hamas isn't wholly compromised of terrorists, as its cell based, negotiations and concessions would have been better then outright ignoring Hamas and further imposing a blockade on Gaza. Which only solidified extremist elements within Hamas.

The lack of dealing with your enemies is a severe strategic failure shown by both the US and Israel, even during the height of the Cold War there was constant contact and negotiation to avert a possible third world war. Talking to Hamas would have been difficult as Israel does not claim responsibility for many hostile actions over the last 60 years as it never gives a platform to Palestinian interests, its always wanted to deal down concessions to Palestinians.

As to Lebanon, it's my understanding that the head of Hezbollah apologized for the war in Lebanon, until he heard that the Israelis considered it a defeat. Then he proclaimed that it was a tremendous victory for Lebanon. As a matter of fact, the Lebanon border had been very quiet up until this latest conflict, and still remains relatively quiet.

Hasan Nasrallah is an idiot, but one cannot simply brush aside the massive excessive and needless military campaign Israel brought down on Lebanon. This is where the 2006 war was a failure because it painted Israel in entirely the wrong light, when it basically decapitated Lebanon's social and economic structure. Israel won the battle but lost the war.

Israel sets very high goals for itself, and when it does not meet them, it considers that a failure. I don't think that's wrong, but I don't think that means that Israel should stop protecting itself.

On this point I disagree with you as what Israel claims on political channels is disconnected with the reality on the ground, by treating the Palestinians as prisoners, by constantly forcing them through countless check points, taking pot shots at them and over watching them with large towers, bulldozing their homes to build settlements it only further marginalizes and drives Palestinian people to terrorist act which it then claims it defends itself from.

Israeli policy on the ground provokes the very attacks it then uses as a pretext to occupy Palestinian lands. The most apparent of which can be seen on US media which so commonly shows Israeli soldiers fighting civilians with rocks, defending Isreali 'settlements' which they never explain to say that its Palestinian homes bulldozed over. This skewed perception is the reason a recent poll showed that almost half of the US population supports Israeli actions because of differing Media narrative provided.

Something that is explored in this sift http://www.videosift.com/video/Global-Pulse-Analysis-of-Gaza-Media-War-and-Reportage

I say this again and again, terrorist actions in Palestine towards Israel is a symptom not a disease, which can be found in parallel with the independence wars fought by Algerian rebels with France and Americans with the English and many others.

You're ignorant, Farhad. Yehoshua is Joshua. Which is my name.

Yeshua, on the other hand...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua_(name)

Furthermore, I'm not simply "peddling a line of bullshit."

You are antagonistic without acknowledging any of the truth of what I say - it does not strengthen your case, it weakens it.

If you have some disagreement about my understanding of the history of the region, explain it instead of simply calling me a liar. Your rage is apparent, but unsupported.

Do you disagree that the elections that put Hamas in power were free? That they are expressing the will of their populace? Would you absolve Americans from responsibility for Bush's mistakes around the world? I wouldn't. If I'm not mistaken, the current economic crisis we're suffering seems connected to policies of this past government.

As an American, I abhor most of what the Bush administration has said and done to this country and our civil liberties, not to mention the world and our standing in it.

As to Lebanon, it's my understanding that the head of Hezbollah apologized for the war in Lebanon, until he heard that the Israelis considered it a defeat. Then he proclaimed that it was a tremendous victory for Lebanon. As a matter of fact, the Lebanon border had been very quiet up until this latest conflict, and still remains relatively quiet.

Israel sets very high goals for itself, and when it does not meet them, it considers that a failure. I don't think that's wrong, but I don't think that means that Israel should stop protecting itself.

Do I think the invasion of Gaza will lead to peace all by itself? Of course not. Do I think it will cause some problems for Israel? Yes. However, I believe that it holds significant hope for doing more good than harm, as far as peace in the region is concerned.

Are you here for reasoned discussion, Farhad, or simply to have others agree with you and foment hatred against Israel and the Jewish people?

It is the refusal to find common ground and accept disagreement without demeaning and vilifying the other side that makes this conflict intractable. That way of thought perpetuates the problem.

The sad truth is that there is more than enough blame to go around on both sides. Both sides want to stake their claim as "the victem" when they are each the victem of circumstances they created. It is true that the Israeli's are far more powerful and their attacks are disproportianate and brutal, their opression of the Palestinian people is inhumane and their targeting of civilians is shameful. But it is also true that peace will never come until the Palestinians truly want peace. They protest when the Israelis kill their children, they must also protest when Hamas kills an Israeli child. One life is not worth more than another. I saw a picture of Orthodox Jews protesting the war in Gaza. I pray for the day I see Palestinians protesting Hamas and Hezbollah attacks on Israel. When I see that I will know that the Palestinians truly want peace. If they want the collective punishment to end they must collectively rise up against their own people who do not want peace.

Wow, talk about histrionic titles.... geesh.

Look, if you want any Western strategic interests located in the heart of the Middle East, this is how it's accomplished. If the US didn't pay this money, they'd have less influence over Israel and the region as a whole. The money buys the US a spot at the table. It also buys the US a military presence, a proxy military, a military jumping-off point, and thus political pressure in the area. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is another discussion.

As to the current fiasco: it's war and it's not a new war. If this were the dark ages and the groups could fire weapons the distance of a football field or two, I'm sure the groups could live together. Given the small size of the country and the advancement of weaponry, it's far easier for for the Israelis to be harmed by state or non-state players.

Look at the current situation: Hamas in Gaza started firing rockets into Israel. Israel asked the world for help. No help came. Israel attempted to remove this enemy once and for all. The attacks wouldn't be a problem if we were in the pre-rocket days - catapult fire wouldn't travel far enough. Pity our advancement of "civilization", eh?

Is there a right or a wrong in this fight? Wow. That's a naive question. Both sides have a right to live in the area. What right? There are historic rights for both groups. Military rights, too, for the Israelis, since 1948 and reaffirmed in '67. Both groups also have political/lawful rights. The problem is that the groups can't seem to Just Get Along. That puts Israel in a pickle: they can't readily defend themselves from hostile fire from enemies, many of whom refuse to accept that Israel is a legitimate state. They can't get make those people move to other countries... not legally, anyway. That leaves them with their only legal option: defend themselves from attack.

The Palestinians this time are fighting against the war of attrition; being cut off. The Israelis are defending against the reprisal terrorist attacks. Enter the circle of violence.

Of course nobody wants the civilian deaths in Gaza; neither child nor adult. That said, if you choose to live in Gaza or the West Bank, there's no doubt you'll have terrorists (and I say "terrorist" instead of "freedom fighter" because Hamas, Hezbollah, and the PLO have have plenty of civilian blood on their hands) living with you. And if you have terrorists as neighbors, you'll have bullets as weather.

Ha.

You guys are ridiculous, you think the IDF bombing Gaza will eliminate Hamas? Did the Lebanon war eliminate Hezbollah? Both these entities came forth from Israel aggression and injustice in dealing with Palestine. Jewish people themselves resent the Zionist actions of the military forces knowing full well that everything that is wrought now will back fire in new groups, new individuals and new suicide bombers.

But you know maybe it will! Who knows! It definitely has worked in Afghanistan and Iraq! Not COIN or hearts and minds but simply we have to bomb Gaza to save it!

Gaza has been under blockade for 2 years, continuous apartheid has been in effect for far longer, its economical, socially and politically been coerced into fighting in any means it can, the Israelis have gone into the West Bank and Gaza countless times to seek out terrorists only to see them rise again like hydra heads because the essential underlining policy of achieving peace is flawed in design to propagate continuous hostility and conflict with the Palestinian people. You know so Israel can claim victim, build walls all over, sniper towers while pushing settlements out and claim a bit more land.

Zionism wants Israel to occupy West Bank and Gaza with no Palestinian state, so in effect Hamas wants the elimination of Israel. The two policies are mirrors of one another.

The Palestinian areas have hand every building bombed, bulldozed and blown through so many times and you guys are saying Hamas should act like uniformed forces against the IDF. It's asymmetrical warfare, the same kind the Fedayeen employed against US forces after seeing how the Taliban got bombed to shit in Tora Bora.

That's just plain military tactics, its unfortunate they use suicide bombing and rocket attacks but hey you know they don't have obligatory military service, Merkava Tanks, F-16s, Apaches or a steady supply of Military Aid from the US.

The US achieved peace with a hostile enemy by employed the methodology of COIN and hearts and minds to allow Iraqis to govern themselves, though years late cooperation and dialog in parts of Iraq have shown that soft contact with the local populace has meant that Iraqis actively gave up insurgents themselves.

Contrast this methodology with Israel hostile stance against all Palestinian people and you quickly realize that peace is not what Israel is striving for. It's a political process of land acquisition through the guise of fighting terrorism.

I am not interested in their culture nor am I any kind of expert on it, nor do I want to meddle in it or try to change it by words or by action.

I am interested in campaigning against human rights abuses which have been ongoing in that part of the world since before I was born.

Their culture and their religion is not my business, how they govern themselves and choose to live is entirely up to them as a free and sovereign nation.

You appear to be of the opinion that because you do not agree with their scriptures or their culture that they are to blame for their own slaughter. I find that offensive and ignorant.

You are very ill informed of these people, do not take others words for it, go and see for yourself, travel, meet, talk, immerse, discuss. Until then read what you want to read and think whatever you want, but do not for one second think that you can represent a culture which is entirely alien to you and you have not experienced.

Palestinian darlings?
Fellow human beings who are screaming to the world for help.
In reply to this comment by mharvey42:
In reply to this comment by Irishman:
"Hezbollah, Hamas and all the Palestinian people have no interest in attacking Israel, that is complete nonsense...
I can assure you categorically that Ismail Haniyeh's offer of a truce was taken very seriously, it was a huge breakthrough at the time."

Irishman - This illustrates how little you understand about the culture of your Palestinian darlings.

Any offer of peace is Taqiyya (a deception) used to establish a Hudna (temporary truce in order to rebuild armed might). It's in the koran, and is specifically condoned when dealing with non-muslims (Christians and Jews)

Read it sometimes, and realize that it is worshipped by islamists as a literal command and example of how to behave. This differs from Christians and Jews, who regard their holy texts as metaphorical or antiquated as (unprovoked) mass killings are concerned.

Your passion it admirable, but tragically misguided.

In reply to this comment by Irishman:
"Hezbollah, Hamas and all the Palestinian people have no interest in attacking Israel, that is complete nonsense...
I can assure you categorically that Ismail Haniyeh's offer of a truce was taken very seriously, it was a huge breakthrough at the time."

Irishman - This illustrates how little you understand about the culture of your Palestinian darlings.

Any offer of peace is Taqiyya (a deception) used to establish a Hudna (temporary truce in order to rebuild armed might). It's in the koran, and is specifically condoned when dealing with non-muslims (Christians and Jews)

Read it sometimes, and realize that it is worshipped by islamists as a literal command and example of how to behave. This differs from Christians and Jews, who regard their holy texts as metaphorical or antiquated as (unprovoked) mass killings are concerned.

Your passion it admirable, but tragically misguided.

Hezbollah, Hamas and all the Palestinian people have no interest in attacking Israel, that is complete nonsense.

It's not nonense, it's the truth. The Palestinian people as a majority I believe have no interest in attacking Israel. Nasrallah, the Secretary-Gneral of Hezbollah has been quoted in the Washington Post stating that "There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel" and "I do not even recognize the presence of a state that is called 'Israel.'". That should be enough in and of itself, but Hezbollah also considers the Iranian Ayatollah it's highest authority(though they have been more independent of late), and I shouldn't have to point out the position of Iran's fanatical religious leaders. As for Hamas, I quoted several of their founders and you even admitted that their charter holds a call for Israel's destruction as central. There can be no doubt Hamas wants to attack Israel. The only thing holding Hamas and Hezbollah back is similar to what has kept the peace between Syria/Iran and Israel, the fact that Israel would win any such conflict.


Syria and Iran have watched Israel's serial human rights abuses for decades


But they have been openly and actively attacking Israel even longer, your view really doesn't explain that does it?



If you understand how the political process of a truce and a peace settlement works in reality under international law, you will begin to understand that it means the cessation of violence and the beginning of sorting out opposing political aspirations on both sides.


Yes, and you may remember how Hamas sorted out opposing political aspirations previously. Giving them more time to kill off moderates and opposition doesn't seem to be in anyone's best interests.


It was a bigger leap of faith (by a factor of hundreds) for Hamas to offer this truce to Israel than it would have been for Israel to honour it under international law.


And here I thought it was the under dog that had the most to gain from a ceasefire.

Hezbollah, Hamas and all the Palestinian people have no interest in attacking Israel, that is complete nonsense. The Israeli people know this, so do their press and their newspapers and their journalists and their blogs and websites.

Syria and Iran have watched Israel's serial human rights abuses for decades and are fully aware that Israel is a nuclear power (illegally and in breach of the non-proliferation treaty).

I can assure you categorically that Ismail Haniyeh's offer of a truce was taken very seriously, it was a huge breakthrough at the time.

It's being ignore was interpreted by many at the time (and some still today) that the peace process was not genuine and was in fact only a cover for US and Israel join operations for control of the region.

If you understand how the political process of a truce and a peace settlement works in reality under international law, you will begin to understand that it means the cessation of violence and the beginning of sorting out opposing political aspirations on both sides.

It was a bigger leap of faith (by a factor of hundreds) for Hamas to offer this truce to Israel than it would have been for Israel to honour it under international law.

It is not our business as westerners to judge the political aspirations of another country, but it IS our business and our duty to step in when human rights abuses are being committed, and this is what is not happening.

So if we're going to take Hamas to task on their ambulances then let's go, and unless we want to be branded as hypocrites then we'll want the Israeli government in the Hague and behind bars for their decades of war crimes against the Palestinian people as well.


Finally something I think we can both agree on, at least mostly. I'd say that would be a good first step, but you simply can't limit the Israel-Palestine conflict to just those two nations, I think that overly simplistic to the point of being false.

Let's be honest about the conflict. Even if Hezbollah, Hamas and all the palestinian people united to make a well co-ordinated surprise assault on Israel, the IDF would have it stomped out entirely within the week. The fighting between Israel and Palestinian militants is a real security threat to both, but I think it is only a small part of a bigger picture. It's like looking at the Korean or Vietnam wars without talking about the tensions between the US and USSR.

The real tension around Israel then is in fact between them and Syria and Iran. Syria and Iran together pose a vastly more credible threat to Israel. Both Syria and Iran fund Hezbollah and Hamas as proxies to strike at Israel without mounting direct military action. Hamas and Hezbollah then become sacrificial lambs/martyrs to Syrian and Iranian goals. Dying as underdogs to make Israel play the role of the bad guy. Israel for it's part plays right into it, as their foreign policy can accept collateral civilian casualites more readily than it can weakness. It's all a big mess like most conflicts in the world, but simply saying that Israel should be condemned and Hamas forgiven is throwing wood on the fire.


And if we want to talk about Hamas' charter which calls for the destruction of Israel, then let's talk about it:

In 2006 Ismail Haniyeh became Hamas prime minister. He offered the Bush administration a truce in return for an end to the illegal Israeli occupation. He was completely ignored.


Well let's talk about Hamas' charter then. Ismail Haniyeh's offer for a truce may not have been taken seriously because his foregin minister(and a Hamas co-founder) stated the following after their election "dreams of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it...I hope that our dream to have our independent state on all historic Palestine (including Israel). This dream will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the state of Israel on this land". Surely Hamas own charter and statements by other co-founders like Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi(who also denies the holocaust) stating their goal is "to remove Israel from the map" make negotiations with them difficult to neigh on impossible.

I know you strongly disagree, but I am willing to understand Israeli relutance to trust a truce with an organization with that kind of leadership. A truce that is openly discussed as acceptable only because 'a phased liberation of all historic Palestine may be necessary' just doesn't strike me as in Israels best interests.

>> ^Irishman:
>> ^Pprt:
Take a look at the faces: 0:18, 0:32, 0:50, 1:47, 1:53, 2:15 etc
There was even a Hezbollah flag there (the yellow one) and a poster of Ahmadinejad.

Jingoist.
Fear comes from ignorance. You should visit London some time.


I think you may want to crack open your OED before throwing around buzzwords.

By the way, multiculturalism isn't very special or even unique to London. Eventually (and it's already the case in some places), the demographics will be so similarly heterogeneous in most Western-European and North-American cities that traveling will become pointless, asides from seeing landmarks. Although the look of the land may be similar,the feel of the land will have melted away. It isn't a badge of honour to say the most important city in the UK is less and less British every year.

How would one explain the Hezbollah flag, I am curious? Does your typical John Chesterfield have some concern for a rebellious Lebanese political party? I think the answer rather lies in the fact that Mohamed is the 2nd most common given name in the UK.

http://www.videosift.com/video/War-on-Gaza-Demonstrations-Manchester-UK-28-Dec
What faces do you see in this clip?

What about the protests in
Oregon
San Francisco
New York
Tel Aviv
Tehran
Egypt
30+ UK cities
Ireland
Paris
and all over Europe and around the world?

What colour faces do you see there?

You know what, you'll see ALL COLOUR FACES, you'll see people from ALL CULTURES standing in solidarity with Palestine and condemning Israeli genocide.

You should go along to one of these demonstrations, I bet there's one happening near you. You might learn something.

In reply to this comment by Pprt:
Take a look at the faces: 0:18, 0:32, 0:50, 1:47, 1:53, 2:15 etc

There was even a Hezbollah flag there (the yellow one) and a poster of Ahmadinejad.

>> ^Pprt:
Take a look at the faces: 0:18, 0:32, 0:50, 1:47, 1:53, 2:15 etc
There was even a Hezbollah flag there (the yellow one) and a poster of Ahmadinejad.


Jingoist.
Fear comes from ignorance. You should visit London some time.