So if they were just jerks she'd still be dating them then?

I can't help but think that in today's atmosphere this problem will only get worse as now men are afraid they'll be called sexual harassers if they so much as ask a co-worker out on a date.

He got cut off. Sounded like he was about to -- this military "defender" was okay with me making a joke about women being responsible for sexual harassment, but then gets out of his chair for the military joke.

I would love to have heard that rant. If that is what he was about to say.

I'm totally for this, not just in employment contracts but in any kind of contracts really, forced arbitration as a concept needs to die in a fire.
But it needs to cover everything, not just sexual harassment, if we try to do this piecemeal the corporations will force us to fight for everything individually and we will waste a lot of time and money doing it.

I love how the owner of the car who isn't even in the store... books it over there because he knows he parked his car so close to the victim that she could end up hitting him as she pulls out.

masshole or not, I think this could be grounds for harassment with this video proof. Yes, she sucks at parking, but at least she doesn't suck at life like a certain red car owner.

Where's Sexual Harassment Panda?

Yeah, along with stories about:
- how climate change is a hoax
- why sexual harassment laws mean the end of romance
- how immigrants are stealing your job
- how immigrants are lazy bastards who don't work and take the dole (I presume these are Schrodinger's immigrants?)
- how the youth of today just need a good war to sort them out

First Today Tonight, now the Daily Mail?

Fucking hell, the standards for journalism are falling through the floor.

Your video, A handy guide to what actually constitutes sexual harassment, has made it into the Top 15 New Videos listing. Congratulations on your achievement. For your contribution you have been awarded 1 Power Point.

Of course, there's a line.

If some dude patted my behind, I probably wouldn't take it as sexual.

It's about context. I am not generally in a situation where there is a power dynamic working against me.

If a mate jokingly patted my behind, I probably wouldn't care.
If my boss patted my behind, I'd certainly tell him that's not ok.

But if I felt it WAS creepy and especially if I felt whoever it was a) might do it again and b) was frequently in a position to do so to vulnerable people... yeah, I'd report it.

I wouldn't try to have them convicted of rape because that's not what they did.

I still want to know whose life is being "ruined" over "nothing".

Weinstein? Spacey? It's certainly not nothing and their lives are far from ruined. They're still incredibly wealthy people living (admittedly a little less now) comfortable lives. Are their reputations sullied? Yep, and deservedly so. They've certainly gotten off easier than their victims.

Aziz? Ok, that's a bit more nuanced.

First, is his life "ruined"? Eh, not really. His reputation has taken a hit, but plenty of people have actually come out in support of him.

Second, was what he did "nothing, or at most an innocent misunderstanding not corrected"? Well, it wasn't Weinstein-level harassment and it certainly wasn't rape. We can all agree on that. But was it "nothing"? Would you be ok with someone treating you like that? Do you really think what he did was acceptable behaviour?

He shouldn't go to jail for it, definitely. And there are far worse people out there... one of them is in the white house.

In all honesty, I think he's been unlucky to end up as the cautionary tale of how not to treat your date. Maybe "Grace" could have handled it better.

But on balance, if I have to choose between his actions and her actions, I think his are worse.

Putting me on ignore doesn't mean someone gets to have their say without contradiction....it means she doesn't have to read it.

I don't care a whit if she does or doesn't read me, I know she dislikes me, I doubt she'll read my comments, it's not about her.

It's a public conversation. I get to chime in when I feel there's something to say, even if it's in response to someone who won't engage. Get over it.

Edit: someone might tell her that lucky can hide my posts for her so she won't see me at all if she asks. I'm not trying to harass her.

Sure, but why does he then spend the rest of the argument talking about how one isn't as bad as the other?

It just feels like making excuses.

Yeah, we get it. Rape > groping > other dumb shit.

Mike Pence is not as bad as ISIS. There, I said it. Congratulations on passing the lowest bar possible. I still don't want him as president.

Even if Minnie Driver makes a stupid comment, she's not a spokesperson for everyone who supports #metoo.

The fundamental point to me is that senator's quote.
"I think when we start having to talk about the differences between sexual assault and sexual harassment and unwanted groping you are having the wrong conversation.... You need to draw a line in the sand and say none of it is O.K. None of it is acceptable"

So Bill wants to have "an additional conversation". Ok, WHY? What is driving this additional conversation? Why do we need to have it and is it distracting from the more important conversation we should be having?

I'm not worried about the distinction between the varying levels of assault, except as a means for deciding how to deal with the perpetrator.

But that's not the conversation that's happening at the moment. If Aziz Ansari ends up sharing a cell with Harvey Weinstein, I will 100% stand up and say "hang the fuck on, those two are NOT equivalent". But in terms of saying "stop being a dick", yeah, I'm happy to say that to both of them.

I know that you and @newtboy and @Payback understand that groping and harassment (even if they are not as heinous as rape) are things you shouldn't do. That's 'cos you're decent human beings.

But you guys are not the people we need to talk to.

Being held accountable for what we do is a good thing, but ignoring degrees and distinctions can turn it bad.

Weinstein out of a position of power, out of a job, and quite possibly into jail: good. Deserved, and sends an important message to those that might want to abuse their power in similar ways in the future. Precedent set -- however things worked before, we won't stand for that shit anymore.

Louis CK out of favor, and on record for doing creepy things which reduces opportunity to continue doing said creepy things. Also removed from positions where he could exert pressure to "consent" to said creepery where consent likely wouldn't be granted if the threat of job repercussions wasn't implied or patently stated. Again, good outcome -- in my opinion including the fact that he likely won't face criminal charges while Weinstein may.


Franken, on the other hand, was held accountable for actions in a way that I found troublesome for two reasons:

1) He was under scrutiny for past actions, yet placed under the judgement of current (bleeding edge current, even) behavioral standards. That is trending towards ex-post-facto law. I can't pass a law in December making it illegal to wear white shirts, then throw you in jail for having worn a white shirt in November before the law was in effect.

It isn't the same thing because sexual harassment has been illegal all along, and because he wasn't really facing legal trouble, just professional / political trouble -- where "ex-post-facto" judgments aren't prohibited. Still, it seems like when standards change we should try to limit judgement under current standards to current behavior. There's a reason why it works that way in law.


2) Furthermore, a lot of the scrutiny Franken was under completely stripped the behavior from context. Context is extremely important. That's why Weinstein "asking" women to "consent" to his rapey behavior wasn't OK, even though asking for consent is sort of the baseline "good"/expected behavior -- they weren't actually completely free to tell him to shove it.

Ignoring the context of Franken's behavior means that it is immaterial that he was working for the USO at the time, where on-stage suggestive stuff and raunchiness was/is pretty much the whole idea. Immaterial that on-stage "groping and kissing" stuff may well have been scripted as such, and basically consented to by the actors -- part of the show.

Combine that with ignoring degrees of offense, and we're listing Franken's name in the same sentence with Louis CK and Harvey Weinstein, which is ridiculous. Franken "had to" be a sacrificial lamb to demonstrate that Democrats are willing to walk the walk as well as talk the talk on this issue -- but did he really?

If more Democrats were willing to "tell it like it is", as I'd argue Maher is doing here, Franken could have said that the photo where he mimed groping a sleeping Karri Turner was a mistake, a joke in poor taste done in the context of an entire tour that seems in poor taste by modern standards, and that could have been the end of it. He could still be in office, and the Democrat party at large would have been better off, as would the net balance in Congress with regards to women's issues.

But nope. Context, distinction, and degrees are all meaningless, so Franken's name is in that same list of dirty sleazeball asshole men, no asterisks or footnotes necessary. I don't think the outcome of that game goes in a favorable direction.

Good points Bill.

Next time I'm breaking some dudes leg with a baseball bat, I'll be sure to remind him that he's not being murdered.

But hey, congrats on one thing. I was kinda unsure about Sam Bee's video until I saw this... now I'm 100% behind her.

So let me mansplain the fuck outta this.
Yes, rape is worse than groping.
No, no one gives a fuck about your opinion.
Yes, some drugs fuck you up more than others.
No, that analogy doesn't fucking apply here.

Honestly, the more I watch Maher, the more I'm convinced he's actually a fucking moron who, by sheer coincidence, happens to agree with some smart people on some things, but when left to his own devices, hasn't a fucking clue.

The senator is EXACTLY right. Right now, we don't need to have a conversation about the varying levels of how fucked up groping or harassment or rape is. If and when people are being sentenced to death and/or extreme prison terms, yeah, let's talk about proportionate response. Right now, let's just keep telling dudes (and be honest, it's mostly dudes) STOP BEING WEIRD, GROPEY OR RAPEY. It's just not fucking cool.

And if it takes "ruining someone's career" to do that... well, boo fucking hoo.

And as for the people claiming trial by media, I agree, that's fucked up. And when one of the accused people actually denies what they've done... I'll happily give them the benefit of the doubt.

Yeah, I've got to agree, that cannot be a coincidence. It is creepy on the same level as a hooters or any other business that hires exclusively hot women to do a job that should have nothing to do with looks.

It's not so much that I worry about the average female gun enthusiast going without work, but that it's hard to imagine that sort of workplace culture isn't rife with sexual harassment. Any time a woman looking sexy is a job requirement, it's a fair bet that her boss wants more than to look at her.

So far, 94 and counting…
94. James Levine – Iconic Artistic Director/Composer at the Metropolitan Opera House

Suspended over three allegations of child molestation.

93. Israel Horovitz – Playwright
Nine Allegations of sexual assault.

92. Geoffrey Rush – Oscar-Winner
advertisement

Resigned as the president of the Australian Academy of Cinema and Television Arts following allegations of “inappropriate behavior.”

91. Nick Carter – Former Backstreet Boy
Accused of rape.

90. John Lasseter – Top Disney Executive
Forced leave of absence after numerous accusations of harassment, unwanted kisses, groping.

89. Russell Simmons – Mogul

Multiple accusations of sexual assault.

88. Murray Miller – Girls Writer

Accused of rape.

87. Adam Fields – Producer

Multiple accusations of sexual harassment.

86. John Singleton – Director

Accused of sexual harassment.

85. Jason Mojica – Executive Producer Vice Documentary Films

Suspended over allegations of sexual misconduct.

84. Cameron Mitchell – CAA Agent

Accused of sexual harassment.

83. Sylvester Stallone – Actor, Director

Accused of the sexual assault of a 16 year-old girl.

82. Al Franken – Comedian, U.S. Senator

Groping, misconduct , bullying.

81. Matt Zimmerman – NBC Exec

Fired for sexual misconduct.

80. Andy Henry – Casting Employee

Accused of manipulating auditioning actresses to get undressed.

79. Benny Medina – Producer

Accused of attempted rape.

78. Peter Aalbæk Jensen – Co Founder of Zentropa

Harassment, bullying.

77. Eddie Berganza – Editor DC Comics

Accused of two decades of sexual misconduct.

76. Gary Goddard – Producer

Accused of child molestation.

75. Andrew Kreisberg – TV Producer

Suspended over allegations of misconduct.

75. Richard Dreyfuss – Actor, Activist

Accused of sexual misconduct.

74. George Takei – Actor, Activist

Accused of sexual assault.

73. Ethan Kath – Musician

Accusation of rape.

72. Matthew Weiner – Mad Men Creator

Accused of sexual harassment.

71. Robert Knepper – Actor

Accused of sexual assault.

70. Mariah Carey – Singer, Actress

Accused of sexual harassment.

69. Jeffrey Tambor – Emmy-Winning Actor

Accused of sexual harassment.

68. Ed Westick – Actor

Accused of rape.

67. Alec Baldwin – TV Actor

Bullying and sexist behavior towards women.

66. David Guillod – Co-CEO Primary Wave Entertainment

Alleged sexual assault.

65. Unnamed Director

Alleged sexual harassment.

64. Adam Venit – Powerful Talent Agent

Suspended for allegedly groping Terry Crews.

63. NBCUniversal

Targeted in lawsuit over “inappropriate gender-based, sexual comments”

62. Kirt Webster – CEO Country Music Firm Webster PR

Multiple allegations of sexual harassment, assaulting and drugging a client.

61. Ryan Ly – CAA Agent

Fired over multiple allegations from female staffers, including groping.

60. Erik Horine – ICM Agent

Fired for “inappropriate behavior.”

59. John Grissom – Actor

Accused of molesting Corey Feldman.

58. Danny Masterson – Actor

Four accusations of rape.

57. David Corn – Reporter, Actor

Accusations of sexual touching of female staffers, rape jokes

56. Brett Ratner – Director, Powerhouse Producer Behind RatPac Entertainment

Multiple accusations of sexual assault, harassment.

55. Dustin Hoffman – Oscar-Winning Actor

Accused of sexual misconduct, groping of 17 year-old actress.

54. Jeremy Piven – Emmy Award Winning TV Star

Accused of sexually assaulting an actress.

53. Hamilton Fish – Documentary Film Producer

Suspended over allegations of sexual harassment.

52. Andy Dick – Actor/Comedian

Fired over allegations of sexual harassment, groping.

51. Warner Bros.

Allegations of sexual harassment by former producer.

50. Andrew Kramer – Lionsgate Executive

Resigned due to allegations of sexual harassment.

Your video, Matt Lauer Sexual Harassment; Trump's Unhinged Tweets, has made it into the Top 15 New Videos listing. Congratulations on your achievement. For your contribution you have been awarded 1 Power Point.

This achievement has earned you your "Pop Star" Level 10 Badge!