TLDR.

PS: Both sides are crazy pants. A little bit like this thread.

>> ^bcglorf:

He merely said that people will not tolerate this woman espousing her hateful and ill conceived views, but we extend that courtesy to the Jews/Israelies who want to wipe out the Palestinians, likewise hateful and ill conceived.
He went a touch further initially and characterized all opposition to this girl as hypocrites that extend the courtesy to Israeli and Jewish acts of terrorism and excess. That by extension paints all Israelis as wanting to wipe out the Palestinians, and I do consider that a hateful view and will oppose it as long as it remains untrue. He did later clarify that as too broad though, and my last response had been to Drachen_Jager.
You've done the instinctive jump (I'm surprised you didn't start waving the holocaust flag sooner tbh) to go on the offensive as if Longde was some jew hating white supremicist when you have nothing, from what he has said, to base that on.
And yet you both failed the litmus test. When Drachen_Jager stated his willingness to extend leniency to oppressed peoples, like Hamas and Hezbollah, I pointed back to 1940's Israel and asked if the same standards applied then. Longde declared that to be revisionist history and you've made it clear you consider the Israeli war of independence a terrorist act. I never said anything about Israel's many crimes being justified because of the holocaust. I just stated that when considering the civil war between Jew and Arab in 1940's Palestine, the holocaust absolutely sways me in support of the Jewish minority. All the more so when the entirety of the Arab world decided to join in and attempt to exterminate the Jewish people for the second time in a single decade.
Would you condemn the extremists who helped establish the Jewish state?
Yes. Would you condemn the very establishment of that Jewish state because of those extremists? I certainly am not willing to, and if you are I'd ask if Hamas has then similarly disqualified the Palestinians from the right to a Palestinian state?
For the record (in case you've actually read this far), I condemn Hammas and Hezbollah for their crimes. I condemn the right wing government of Israel for it's crimes and it's Nazi-esque policies. I condemn any Jew who supports them and wants to see Palestine gone. I condemn Jews who misuse terribly the suffering of those involved in the Holocaust to silence dissent to Israels current facist actions.
And I can agree whole heartedly with this entire paragraph. We see 100% eye to eye on it. I do differ in going a touch further though and requiring the observation that Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, Iran and a great many arab populations in surrounding countries are all as nazi-esque in their racism towards Israel. Hamas and Hezbollah also go further still in being less discriminate in their hatred and use of violence. The only thing holding them back from exterminating all Israeli's is they lack the ability to do it. At least the right wing nuts in Israel like Netanyahu are held back by the will of the moderate Israeli's, because there can be no mistaking that if Netanyahu's kind wished to turn the West bank and Gaza into lifeless rubble they could likely do it inside a week.
I'm perfectly content to condemn Israel for it's crimes and extremists. I will not settle for disproportionate blame being laid on them for all the hate, violence and atrocities befalling the region around them. The Palestinians aren't the only ones who's extremists have arisen from existential threats to their people.

Here is what I wrote above: "I define her opposition as the people on the other side using extrremism and killing to achieve their ends. Perhaps I have defined it too broadly. I certainly don't think it encapsulates all Jews or Isrealis, but I do think it includes the Israeli government and military."

Again, you are putting words in my mouth, unless all Israelis and all Jews use extremism and killing.


>> ^bcglorf:

He merely said that people will not tolerate this woman espousing her hateful and ill conceived views, but we extend that courtesy to the Jews/Israelies who want to wipe out the Palestinians, likewise hateful and ill conceived.
He went a touch further initially and characterized all opposition to this girl as hypocrites that extend the courtesy to Israeli and Jewish acts of terrorism and excess. That by extension paints all Israelis as wanting to wipe out the Palestinians, and I do consider that a hateful view and will oppose it as long as it remains untrue. He did later clarify that as too broad though, and my last response had been to Drachen_Jager.
You've done the instinctive jump (I'm surprised you didn't start waving the holocaust flag sooner tbh) to go on the offensive as if Longde was some jew hating white supremicist when you have nothing, from what he has said, to base that on.
And yet you both failed the litmus test. When Drachen_Jager stated his willingness to extend leniency to oppressed peoples, like Hamas and Hezbollah, I pointed back to 1940's Israel and asked if the same standards applied then. Longde declared that to be revisionist history and you've made it clear you consider the Israeli war of independence a terrorist act. I never said anything about Israel's many crimes being justified because of the holocaust. I just stated that when considering the civil war between Jew and Arab in 1940's Palestine, the holocaust absolutely sways me in support of the Jewish minority. All the more so when the entirety of the Arab world decided to join in and attempt to exterminate the Jewish people for the second time in a single decade.
Would you condemn the extremists who helped establish the Jewish state?
Yes. Would you condemn the very establishment of that Jewish state because of those extremists? I certainly am not willing to, and if you are I'd ask if Hamas has then similarly disqualified the Palestinians from the right to a Palestinian state?
For the record (in case you've actually read this far), I condemn Hammas and Hezbollah for their crimes. I condemn the right wing government of Israel for it's crimes and it's Nazi-esque policies. I condemn any Jew who supports them and wants to see Palestine gone. I condemn Jews who misuse terribly the suffering of those involved in the Holocaust to silence dissent to Israels current facist actions.
And I can agree whole heartedly with this entire paragraph. We see 100% eye to eye on it. I do differ in going a touch further though and requiring the observation that Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, Iran and a great many arab populations in surrounding countries are all as nazi-esque in their racism towards Israel. Hamas and Hezbollah also go further still in being less discriminate in their hatred and use of violence. The only thing holding them back from exterminating all Israeli's is they lack the ability to do it. At least the right wing nuts in Israel like Netanyahu are held back by the will of the moderate Israeli's, because there can be no mistaking that if Netanyahu's kind wished to turn the West bank and Gaza into lifeless rubble they could likely do it inside a week.
I'm perfectly content to condemn Israel for it's crimes and extremists. I will not settle for disproportionate blame being laid on them for all the hate, violence and atrocities befalling the region around them. The Palestinians aren't the only ones who's extremists have arisen from existential threats to their people.

He merely said that people will not tolerate this woman espousing her hateful and ill conceived views, but we extend that courtesy to the Jews/Israelies who want to wipe out the Palestinians, likewise hateful and ill conceived.

He went a touch further initially and characterized all opposition to this girl as hypocrites that extend the courtesy to Israeli and Jewish acts of terrorism and excess. That by extension paints all Israelis as wanting to wipe out the Palestinians, and I do consider that a hateful view and will oppose it as long as it remains untrue. He did later clarify that as too broad though, and my last response had been to Drachen_Jager.

You've done the instinctive jump (I'm surprised you didn't start waving the holocaust flag sooner tbh) to go on the offensive as if Longde was some jew hating white supremicist when you have nothing, from what he has said, to base that on.

And yet you both failed the litmus test. When Drachen_Jager stated his willingness to extend leniency to oppressed peoples, like Hamas and Hezbollah, I pointed back to 1940's Israel and asked if the same standards applied then. Longde declared that to be revisionist history and you've made it clear you consider the Israeli war of independence a terrorist act. I never said anything about Israel's many crimes being justified because of the holocaust. I just stated that when considering the civil war between Jew and Arab in 1940's Palestine, the holocaust absolutely sways me in support of the Jewish minority. All the more so when the entirety of the Arab world decided to join in and attempt to exterminate the Jewish people for the second time in a single decade.

Would you condemn the extremists who helped establish the Jewish state?

Yes. Would you condemn the very establishment of that Jewish state because of those extremists? I certainly am not willing to, and if you are I'd ask if Hamas has then similarly disqualified the Palestinians from the right to a Palestinian state?

For the record (in case you've actually read this far), I condemn Hammas and Hezbollah for their crimes. I condemn the right wing government of Israel for it's crimes and it's Nazi-esque policies. I condemn any Jew who supports them and wants to see Palestine gone. I condemn Jews who misuse terribly the suffering of those involved in the Holocaust to silence dissent to Israels current facist actions.

And I can agree whole heartedly with this entire paragraph. We see 100% eye to eye on it. I do differ in going a touch further though and requiring the observation that Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, Iran and a great many arab populations in surrounding countries are all as nazi-esque in their racism towards Israel. Hamas and Hezbollah also go further still in being less discriminate in their hatred and use of violence. The only thing holding them back from exterminating all Israeli's is they lack the ability to do it. At least the right wing nuts in Israel like Netanyahu are held back by the will of the moderate Israeli's, because there can be no mistaking that if Netanyahu's kind wished to turn the West bank and Gaza into lifeless rubble they could likely do it inside a week.

I'm perfectly content to condemn Israel for it's crimes and extremists. I will not settle for disproportionate blame being laid on them for all the hate, violence and atrocities befalling the region around them. The Palestinians aren't the only ones who's extremists have arisen from existential threats to their people.

>> ^bcglorf:

I have never heard him condemn the extremism on the other side, and I have read many of his tripes encouraging it.
As for the girl, all I have to go on is that exchange.

So you condemn Horowitz for failing to condemn Israel.
Are you then ready to condemn Hamas and Hezbollah?
Will you decry the girl in the video for her failure to do so as well?


Not to put too fine a point on it but you are off in cloud cuckoo land...

Longde never said he supported Hammas or Hezbollah. He merely said that people will not tolerate this woman espousing her hateful and ill conceived views, but we extend that courtesy to the Jews/Israelies who want to wipe out the Palestinians, likewise hateful and ill conceived...

You've done the instinctive jump (I'm surprised you didn't start waving the holocaust flag sooner tbh) to go on the offensive as if Longde was some jew hating white supremicist when you have nothing, from what he has said, to base that on...

Of course, your mindset is blazened quite proudly on your sleeve...

"I'm content to see it as a triumph of the Jewish people after having just lost several million to the holocaust 5 years earlier."

A triumph? Is that what we are calling terrorism now?

And I quote:

"The unified resistance movement in Palestine split up in July 1946, after Irgun's bombing of the British Military Headquarters, the King David Hotel bombing, which killed 92, mostly civilians."

Mostly civilians. Would you condemn the extremists who helped establish the Jewish state? If not, you are about as reasonable as the woman in the clip...

For the record (in case you've actually read this far), I condemn Hammas and Hezbollah for their crimes. I condemn the right wing government of Israel for it's crimes and it's Nazi-esque policies. I condemn any Jew who supports them and wants to see Palestine gone. I condemn Jews who misuse terribly the suffering of those involved in the Holocaust to silence dissent to Israels current facist actions.

I'd hazard a guess that Longde would have a similar mindset.

>> deedub81

I can't say I agree with Obama's philosophy found in his observations and comparisons.

I'll share with you one of the most glaring examples: He compares the civil rights movement in the US with the Palestinian's struggle in Israel?

He doesn't compare them, he highlights the civil rights movement as a good example of what can be done without violence (in contrast to what's happening in Palestine).

For reals? I'm sure there are many Palestinians who just want peace, but a lot of the arabs and 97% of Palestinian leaders want death to Israel and death to the US. Are you going to compare the history of that movement (Hammas, The PLO, Yasser Arafat, Abu Nidal, Islamic Jihad movement in Palestine, PFLP) to Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and the civil rights movement in the US?

Where did you get those statistics? I doubt that most Palestinians want death to the US. Besides, many Israelis deny Palestinians their right for their own state.

I'm tired of all this talk about taking a neutral stance to make friends and outstretching our hand to tyrants and evil men!
To quote Dr. King himself: "The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict."
It's not okay to not take sides (especially when you're the President of The United States of America).

He doesn't remain neutral, he takes a definite stance against extremists and people who promote violence. He didn't say anything about any leaders, he was trying to extend a hand to the Muslim people. He takes the side of peace.

Diplomacy should not come at the expense of morality and high standards. Can we not be open and transparent in our discussions of past relationships? Do we have to pretend to have approved of past behavior in order to show that we will accept a change in future behavior?

NO! We need to have a candid discussion about mistakes that have been made. Arab leaders cannot continue spewing hate and propaganda (such as denying the holocaust) and expect us to accept them with open arms!

That's exactly what he's doing in this speech: He acknowledges mistakes made by both the US and the Arab world. He even specifically denounces people who deny the holocaust.

I can't say I agree with Obama's philosophy found in his observations and comparisons.


I'll share with you one of the most glaring examples: He compares the civil rights movement in the US with the Palestinian's struggle in Israel?

For reals? I'm sure there are many Palestinians who just want peace, but a lot of the arabs and 97% of Palestinian leaders want death to Israel and death to the US. Are you going to compare the history of that movement (Hammas, The PLO, Yasser Arafat, Abu Nidal, Islamic Jihad movement in Palestine, PFLP) to Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and the civil rights movement in the US?

That makes me ill.

Barack Obama of all people!!!

I'm tired of all this talk about taking a neutral stance to make friends and outstretching our hand to tyrants and evil men!
To quote Dr. King himself: "The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict."
It's not okay to not take sides (especially when you're the President of The United States of America).

Diplomacy should not come at the expense of morality and high standards. Can we not be open and transparent in our discussions of past relationships? Do we have to pretend to have approved of past behavior in order to show that we will accept a change in future behavior?

NO! We need to have a candid discussion about mistakes that have been made. Arab leaders cannot continue spewing hate and propaganda (such as denying the holocaust) and expect us to accept them with open arms!

As long as the Palestinian combatants will hide amongst the Palestinian civilians, there will be civilians. Gunmen grab children off the street and use them as shields to cross from one location to another without drawing Israeli fire. It's inevitable that there will be civilian casualties.

So, as long as Hammas is doing the fighting, the Palestinian civilians will do the dying.

kronosposeidon;

If you believe that, you are truly out of touch with middle eastern current events. The Kaffeiyeh is not what it once was. I hate to break it to you kiddo, but the meaning of symbols change throughout time, whether you want them to or not, whether you deny it or not.
I do not believe that DD wanted to support terrorists or that the thought to do so even crossed DD's mind. I do not believe that the ad in any way supports terror. But, the fact is that people took offense, on both sides of the issue; one group because they thought it supports terror and one group because they thought the symbol of their oppression was being commercialized.
And I know the Kaffeiya isn't a swastika - that was what the Nazis used while trying to kill every living Jew, the Kaffeiya is what Hammas and Hezbolah use as a symbol while trying to kill every living Jew, so you're quite right.