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ShakaUVM (Member Profile)

ShakaUVM says...

There's no such thing as acceleration of just the ball. Everything is relative; there are no fixed bodies. We just ignore the movement of the earth in these things, because as far as approximations go, it makes no practical difference.

They would not cross an imaginary line at the same time, since if the earth is modelled as a perfect sphere, it will be pulled slightly toward the bowling ball (the actual vector being somewhere between them because the feather has a small moment). If there's a 1 degree difference in the drop between the feather and ball, which looks about right for this experiment, this will result in a 1.7% advantage for the bowling ball hitting the earth first from the very slight movement of the earth.

newtboy said:

yes, but again that's not the point of the experiment. it would cross an imaginary line at the same time.
I also agree about approximations, just admit it and it's fine.
In this instance however, because it's ONLY about the acceleration of the bowling ball vs acceleration of the feather, there's no difference at all. It's only when you change what you're looking at to include the movement of the 'gravity well' and RELATIVE distances that you change which hits the gravity well first, but still not how fast each is accelerated...which was the only point.

EDIT: Shall I guess that you've never found the area/circumference of a circle? It seems, with your insistence on being 100% technically correct to the last decimal, and never rounding off numbers, that trying to multiply by PI would leave you stuck in an infinite loop writing PI forever, unable to ever do the calculation because you can't finish PI. ;-)

ShakaUVM (Member Profile)

ShakaUVM says...

Even with a small degree difference, you can do the trig to show the bowling ball would hit first.

I don't mind approximations. At all. It just should be presented in the full form, with the note you can drop the mass of one object from the equation when it is dominated by the other mass. This way people won't learn bad physics.

newtboy said:

First....nice, nice.
Second. I get your point. They should have been more clear that they are intentionally ignoring any other forces, such as the force exerted by the objects on the planet and each other, and the pull of the observer, and the pull of the milky way, the sun, the moon, Venus, etc. Because those forces are completely inobservable, even with top notch equipment, it's simpler for most to not mention them at all. They have no bearing on what they're teaching, and the smart children who see farther into the details are smart enough to know what this experiment is designed to show, and what it ignores....or at least smart enough to ask the right questions, while the less science/math minded would only be confused by the mention of them while also ignoring them. it's not exactly the same thing as teaching that 5/0=0, when it's really infinity, the exact opposite of 0.

This experiment was about what's observable, not what's mathematically provable at the tiniest detail level. Those details are for higher level physics. I will agree, it's a disservice to not mention that clearly, but I think it's implied by the parameters and the intent (teaching that acceleration due to gravity is independent of mass).
EDIT: Also, please remember that for all intents and purposes, they are releasing the objects from the same point, so they still 'hit' at 'exactly' the same time because their forces are in line, off by what, perhaps <.0000000001deg?. As you said, all solved by equivocating 'exactly' to 'nearly exactly' or 'approximately the same' or even 'observably exactly the same time'.

ShakaUVM (Member Profile)

ShakaUVM says...

Technically correct is the best kind of correct.

The trouble with teaching people that the bowling ball and feather will hit at, quoting the physicist in this clip, "exactly the same time", is that (relativity issues aside making the statement a joke anyway) it leads people to have a faulty understanding of how gravity actually works.

It's fine to teach that bowling balls and feathers will hit at *approximately* the same time, due to one mass in the equation being much higher than the other (allowing us to approximate it out), but it seems to never be taught this way. So these students end up with all sorts of wrong ideas about gravity when they get to me to work on n-body solvers.

It's the same problem, for example, as teaching elementary school kids that 5 divided by 0 is 0. It might make that teacher's life a little easier, but causes problems downstream.

newtboy said:

Now I'm starting to think you just want to argue. If you're smart enough to make those technical assertions, you're smart enough to know that's not what the experiment was about, and that you're just adding data to confuse the lesson.
The experiment is about the effect of gravity on the moving objects under 2 conditions, and how their mass means nothing when determining THEIR accelerations/speeds in a vacuum. Period.
You want to introduce other, completely unobservable forces and movements to say 'nope'. Technically, you may be correct, but you must completely ignore the purpose and parameters of the experiment and assume inobservably small movements to make your point...a point that does not actually change the experimental findings or the lesson, but does confuse it thoroughly.

ShakaUVM (Member Profile)

newtboy says...

Now I'm starting to think you just want to argue. If you're smart enough to make those technical assertions, you're smart enough to know that's not what the experiment was about, and that you're just adding data to confuse the lesson.
The experiment is about the effect of gravity on the moving objects under 2 conditions, and how their mass means nothing when determining THEIR accelerations/speeds in a vacuum. Period.
You want to introduce other, completely unobservable (and irrelevant to the lesson) forces and movements to say 'nope'. Technically, you may be correct in a way, but you must completely ignore the purpose and parameters of the experiment and assume inobservably small movements to make your point...a point that does not actually change the experimental findings or the lesson, but does confuse it thoroughly.

EDIT: I would note that, by your standards, exactly where the observer is positioned makes MORE difference than the different masses of the bowling ball and feather, as do the exact positions of the two...if dropped from exactly the same position, they hit at exactly the same time because their gravitational forces are in line.

I would also note that if you change it to say, unimpeded, they would cross any imaginary line in space at the same time (essentially what they mean), again your point becomes moot.

ShakaUVM said:

If a planet would hit before a feather, then a bowling ball would hit before a feather. The only difference is the effect size.

ShakaUVM (Member Profile)

ShakaUVM says...

If a planet would hit before a feather, then a bowling ball would hit before a feather. The only difference is the effect size.

newtboy said:

No...I'm talking in reference to earth (or any 'stationary' gravity source), as is the video. You are talking about relative speeds of moveable, nearly equal gravitational forces. That's why we disagree, we're talking about completely different things.

Yes. You are correct. If you put 3 objects in space, 2 of them being planet masses (not sized, size has nothing to do with it) and the third being the mass of a feather, the planet masses will come together first because they attract each other.

But that's not what this video, or the discussion were about. They are about how mass is irrelevant when discussing/calculating acceleration due to gravity (in the absence of other opposing forces, like wind resistance), and that's still true in your example. It gets MUCH harder to understand when you change the experimental parameters to have the (now multiple) gravitational force(s) also acted upon and moving, but the same rules all still apply. It's just much simpler to use masses of magnitudes so different where you can consider the gravity well a stationary object not attracted towards or effected by either moving object.

Bowling Ball and Feather dropped in largest vacuum chamber

ShakaUVM says...

Ugh, so wrong. The gravitational force between two objects is proportional to the product of both masses. So a more massive object will indeed fall faster than a lighter object.

We can't really see it with a bowling ball and a feather, but we really shouldn't be teaching that all objects fall at the same speed.

Bowling Ball and Feather dropped in largest vacuum chamber

billpayer says...

My guess would be Inertia. Even in a vacuum objects have Inertia.

"Inertial mass is the mass of an object measured by its resistance to acceleration"

Deformable objects might deform slightly as they accelerate (feather).
However, their center of gravity is the same as a rigid object (bowling ball)

Bowling Ball and Feather dropped in largest vacuum chamber

lucky760 says...

Seems like no one else noticed or cared, but why is it that in the zero-air environment when they did the release the tiny "strands of feather" (I don't know what each little thread on a feather is called, if anything) looked like they were getting pushed back by air?

Am I seeing things?

It must be a hoax. They're probably on a sound stage where they faked the whole thing. Probably not even a real bowling ball.

billpayer (Member Profile)

Bowling Ball and Feather dropped in largest vacuum chamber

Bowling Ball and Feather dropped in largest vacuum chamber

charliem says...

Its definitely relativity.

They fall at the same speed? As each other? With respect to what? Why are they even falling at all?

In relativity you always have a frame of reference. If you take the speed of feathers with respect to that of the bowling ball in a vacuum, the difference is zero....they aren't moving at all within the frame of reference.

No need to complicate things by bringing the earth into the equation.

Its a round about way of using something so simple to explain how relativistic equations are handled in his works.

billpayer (Member Profile)

Bowling Ball and Feather dropped in largest vacuum chamber

MilkmanDan says...

Yeah, those last couple sentences throw me for a loop also. I *think* he is referencing relativity, in that the objects are behaving relativistically towards each other, but if you remove/ignore the earth (and air) then you are missing one half of what they are "relative" to. Or that the Earth and the air are also (minutely) attracted towards the bowling ball and feather, or something.

Would definitely be nice to see the next few minutes of this show to see what he's eluding to...

ChaosEngine said:

Wait, I want to know what happens!

Why did Einstein say the ball and feather weren't accelerating toward earth?

Basebowling

brycewi19 says...

I would also guess that when a baseball hits a bowling pin, it most likely doesn't emit the exact same sound as when a bowling ball hits it.

Amazing gymnast performance



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