The only option is to leave. Now.

COIN in Afhganistan and "The Surge" in Iraq have been utter failures.

In Iraq, "The Surge" is not why there's been a decrease in the amount of violence. We can start with Muqtada al-Sadr's cease-fire that happened before Petraeus' little surge ever happened. Armed Shiite militias pushed out almost all (unarmed) Sunni's from Baghdad, Patreus built huge blastwalls between ethnically opposing neighborhoods, complete with a maze of checkpoints to keep out "insurgents", and made most markets pedestrian only - to keep car & truck bombs from blowing the fuck out of innocent citizens.

There was no "political reconciliation". Unless that means dividing the citizens, arming the shiite militias, and kicking the Sunni's to the curb.

Baghdad has gone from 50/50 split of Sunni/Shia, to a horrible 15% Sunni.

Over 4 million Iraqis have been displaced. The vast majority have lost ownership of their homes and can never return.

We have 100,000 soldiers in Afghanistan to fight 50-100 members of the Taliban. The Pashtuns want US and NATO forces the fuck out of their country right now, and are not afraid of either the Tajiks or the Hazarahs.

We are not, nor have we ever been in that country to end "safe havens" for terrorists. If so, Tora Bora would've been the last day our soldiers were there. Which was in fucking 2001.


Also, remember those "mineral treasures" we recently found (years and years ago) there? Yeah, that's never had anything to do with Bush's invasion mindset.

A reviewer somewhere had a great description of Hitchens, approximately he said "He makes you laugh even when you disagree with him the most".

And an excerpt from an exchange I think is iconic of Hitchens. While debating Iraq with Reagan Jr., Reagan Jr. tries to stutter about what he read in a report while Hitchens lists off first hand experiences to the contrary, and at the same time corrects Reagan Jr.'s misquoting of the same report.


Reagan Jr : "Iraq was not a center of terrorism before we went in there but it might be now..."

Hitchens : "Excuse me, when I went to interview Abu Nadal, then the most wanted terrorist in the world in Baghdad, he was opperating out of an Iraqi government office. He was an arm of the Iraqi state. While being the most wanted man in the world. The same is true of safe haven offered by the Iraqi government to the murderers of Leon Klinghoffer and to Mr. Yasin who mixed the chemicals for the first WTC bombing. How could you know so little about this and be occupying a chair..."

Reagan Jr : "Well, I guess because I read the 9/11 commission and read the report and they said that Saddam Hussein was not exporting terror. I suppose that's how Christopher. Maybe they just needed to listen to you Christopher."

Hitchens : "I'm not sure that they actually did they say that. What they did say is that they didn't know of any actual operational connection."

Reagan Jr. : "That's right, no substantive operational connection."

Hitchens : "..with Al Qaeda, now, that's because they don't know. They don't say there isn't one, but they couldn't find one. I think I just gave you, what I would have thought were a number of rather suggestive examples."

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/collateral-murder-baghdad-anything

Another perspective that balances that of WikiLeaks. Hate if you will, but the best approach is to get above the emotional response and examine it dispassionately.

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>> ^Krupo:

This is absolutely horrific. Thanks Dubya and Cheney - hope you enjoy your oil or whatever it was you wanted to get out of this.


How easily people forget that it's not just a president and vice president feeding off of the war. There are business men and women, senators and congresspersons from both sides reaping the benefits of an unpopular conflict. Completely expected when military drives government as it has been for the last 50 years. Our parents, grandparents and great-grandparents should have listened to Ike.

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>> ^thumpa28:

Haha anyone who doesnt agree with you, who calls you on your bullshit is 'a fascist'? do you even know what fascism is? Go out, do some reading, come back when youve grown a clue. But in the meantime, thanks for proving my point about brainless idiots with no idea what theyre talking about.
edit oh and by the way as much fun as it is trading insults, if you wanna make an ACTUAL point that would at least be vaguely interesting, if your vocab stretches because there are lots oof more fun places I can spend time insulting people.


You are fascism. The fascist says that it's okay to bomb and kill people as long as you get what you want. The ends always justify the means. And that is exactly what you promoted in your cock-sucking piece of shit post above.

"Im going to leave an irate comment about how evil the americans are, then go back to munching my cheap food, buy some cheap petrol and wear these cheap clothes without giving a toss about where they come from."


You justified the murder of those Iraqi's because you seem to think that we can't munch cheap food unless we shed their blood, or have cheap oil, or whatever else you seem to value as the epitome of the American lifestyle.

And like others here, you justify slave labor overseas because we just can't seem to live without $5 T-shirts and $20 cargo shorts.

It's bullshit. We're not in Iraq or Afghanistan to protect America. Those people weren't killed to protect America.

Yet you justify it as such. I am not the brainless idiot, but I'm surely writing to one.

Or donate to wikileaks as originally suggested. I have a feeling their going to need it after this video...>> ^burdturgler:

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>> ^moodonia:
Outraged at this video? Then I suggest you donate to wikileaks, they appear to be fighting the good fight http://www.wikileaks.com/

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>> ^dag:

How does the US government defend keeping this classified? I thought secret classification was not to be used to protect politically damaging material? Beyond the atrocity- that's something else that should be investigated. God Bless Wikileaks but in a democratic society this should have been released by the government- and the perpetrators prosecuted.


Read "Bomb Power". It'll answer your question, but in short, it all leads back to the Manhattan Project and secrecy surrounding nuclear weapons.

http://www.amazon.com/Bomb-Power-Presidency-National-Security/dp/1594202400

As for the video here, there were clearly people carrying weapons, and depending on a larger set of circumstances, it's possible the initial attack was somehow justifiable. But, firing on that van was pretty heinous. This is the kind of shit that just perpetuates the terrorism we've already created with our lust for oil.

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>> ^moodonia:

Outraged at this video? Then I suggest you donate to wikileaks, they appear to be fighting the good fight http://www.wikileaks.com/

>> ^thumpa28:

>> ^rougy:
^ You cock-sucking piece of shit.

You wish you turd. Why dont you pull your head out of whatever passes for your fantasy world of black and white and smell the roses instead of sucking on the zombie tit of whatever the latest video tells you your opinion should be. After youve gotten out of kindergarden of course.


You're a god damned fascist. You talk like a fascist and you act like a fascist.

You're entire line of reasoning is completely in step with the likes of Hitler and Mussolini.

God damn you to hell.

This war, these wars I should say, have done nothing to "maintain my standard of living" as you imply. Quite the opposite. They have driven my country to the brink of bankruptcy and caused us a great loss in terms of honor and dignity in the eyes of the world.

Fuckers like you brought it to pass.

I stand against you, to the death.

>> ^rougy:

^ You cock-sucking piece of shit.


You wish you turd. Why dont you pull your head out of whatever passes for your fantasy world of black and white and smell the roses instead of sucking on the zombie tit of whatever the latest video tells you your opinion should be. After youve gotten out of kindergarden of course.

Ok. So that shooting was justified. How about shooting people coming to their aid. Are you a combatant if you try to pick up wounded? Only the police can help them? I mean couldn't they follow the van?

ALso did you see the hellfire missiles? How many innocent people died because they think they saw someone with a gun enter a bldg. You can count in that video at least six innocent people blown up without any warning.

Also, why can't they shoot some warning rounds, then if they get up or point a gun, you kill them. WHy couldn't they wait for the police to arrive.

>> ^NetRunner:

>> I'm kinda puzzled that they say the "tone" is all it takes to declare it "junk".
Among the things claimed in the report is that there were indeed people carrying AK-47's and an RPG launcher in that crowd of people around the journalists, and that they found the weapons on the scene afterward.
They also claim that journalists are supposed to be wearing specially marked body armor, and are to have their work cleared through the military first so they at least know you're in a particular area, and these two did neither.
They also admit that what was aimed at the helicopter was a camera and not an RPG, but that the furtive nature of how the photographer was acting (tenatively poking his head around the corner, and then leaning out around it with minimal exposure) made it look like it was a weapon being trained on the helicopter, not a camera (a sense I had myself watching this video).
They also say that camera equipment alone doesn't identify individuals as non combatants because insurgents will sometimes bring camera crews to document their attacks.