No, white shame.

I just spent the evening with someone who grew up in Texas. Somehow the topic of racism came up (I didn't do it! I swear!)

She said -- folks around here (meaning Pacific NW) don't believe the stories of what it was like in Texas, the rampant racism. As recently as the 1950s, all black people had to be home on their "side of the tracks" by 9 pm every night. There was a curfew on the books.

When I was born, there were still people alive who had been slaves.

We white people have a great deal to be shamed of.

>> ^campionidelmondo:

So is this what people call "white guilt"?

>> ^longde:

let me clarify a few things:
-I didn't say you wanted the comments to flourish; I don't think you do. I'm saying I don't think you would mind or care if they did. I see you as indifferent.
-I never said or advocated a permaban for people making racist or hate statements. I do think such statements should be prohibited; there are many ways to do so, just like we prohibit other things on the sift.
-We have to use some judgement, but hate or racist statements against any race should be off-limits. I also see the distinction about statements which are about race and racist statements. What stood out for me in BKs comment:
The tone of the comment; I didn't read any sarcasm, irony or jest in the comment; and BK didn't clarify that there was any.
The blanket, non-factual statement which cast all members of the race in an extremely negative light. Let me put it this way: If BK had said "BurdT, this is why people call you nigger" I think we agree that would be bad, since it targets BurdT specifically due to his race. However, BKs statement is much worse, because rather than target BurdT only, he is slurring any and all black people who will read the thread. No qualifiers; these people on the video are scum, so you of the incidental same ethnic group are also scum. WTF
Using "nigger" was the least of it, IMO; but clearly he was using it its most derogatory way
Yes, I can ignore BK, but what about new potential black sifters? Shouldn't the sift be a welcoming place to all? When statement like that are not called out and dealt with, it implies acceptance to those unfamiliar with the sift.


I'm not indifferent to it. I don't want people being hostile toward a group of people based on things they cannot help. It's one thing to make light of it, but to seriously hate and then vehemently target people is another thing altogether. And luckily we don't have that here on the Sift. Let's be thankful.

I also didn't read any sarcasm in BK33's comment. Like I said, I think he meant it to be racist. I don't want us policing behavior on this site. Let me qualify that statement. I don't mean I want people going around attacking people of a different color; I simply think we cannot police matters of the heart, and if we try we'll probably experience more bad behavior than good. What he said was racist. No doubt. I don't condone what he said. Still, his comment is to a hateful, hostile comment what thumping someone on the ear is to a knife wound.

To your point, I agree if he called burdy the n word, that would be something entirely different than what we have here. If BK33 called burdy that, I'd ban him myself. You and I will have to disagree that calling all black people the n word is worse, because I just see that as the absurdity of collectivizing race. Though if BK33 went around calling all black people "n***ers" on here, then I'd also ban him on the spot. That's not what he did with his comment, though. He made a generalized absurd comment that was a thump on the ear, not a knife wound.

Not to sidetrack the conversation but campi also makes a good point above: why is burdy exempt from not using the word? It was his subdomain at one point if you remember?

let me clarify a few things:

-I didn't say you wanted the comments to flourish; I don't think you do. I'm saying I don't think you would mind or care if they did. I see you as indifferent.
-I never said or advocated a permaban for people making racist or hate statements. I do think such statements should be prohibited; there are many ways to do so, just like we prohibit other things on the sift.
-We have to use some judgement, but hate or racist statements against any race should be off-limits. I also see the distinction about statements which are about race and racist statements. What stood out for me in BKs comment:
*The tone of the comment; I didn't read any sarcasm, irony or jest in the comment; and BK didn't clarify that there was any.
*The blanket, non-factual statement which cast all members of the race in an extremely negative light. Let me put it this way: If BK had said "BurdT, this is why people call you nigger" I think we agree that would be bad, since it targets BurdT specifically due to his race. However, BKs statement is much worse, because rather than target BurdT only, he is slurring any and all black people who will read the thread. No qualifiers; these people on the video are scum, so you of the incidental same ethnic group are also scum. WTF
*Using "nigger" was the least of it, IMO; but clearly he was using it its most derogatory way

Yes, I can ignore BK, but what about new potential black sifters? Shouldn't the sift be a welcoming place to all? When statement like that are not called out and dealt with, it implies acceptance to those unfamiliar with the sift.

>> ^blankfist:
>> ^longde:
We have a tolerant community -- for racial slurs against and a hostile environment against certain groups. A few of us want to discourage that, while others don't mind if that behavior flourishes.
I thought you said the original statement went over the line. Now in the same thread, you say its a benign comment. Which is it?
And what makes you the arbiter of what should and should not offend someone? What benchmark do you use to determine what goes over the line. Also, if you really think that a comment which haphazardly disparages a whole group is OK, what anti-black statement would be over the line.
No one on here wants the racial comments to "flourish". Let's scale back the hyperbole a touch, please.
His comment was relatively benign. I see that there's probably some racism in his heart, which I don't condone, but that doesn't mean I want to see him banned over it.
You seem to want some hard and fast rules. But then how would you enforce those? No suggestion of racism or you're banned? No alluding to racist speech? Don't say "n word" because it's the same as "n er"? What would make you the arbiter of what is enforced as "hostile" and what isn't? Would you tolerate bans of people calling rich white people greedy or honkeys? Or is it that some racism is tolerated?
We have a great community here, and we've been surprisingly tolerant and civil over the past five years, so let's not go mucking that up by finding excuses to run unpopular members off the site.

Okay, this is a pure example of racism.

http://videosift.com/video/Crime-Fighting-Mom-Chases-After-Beer-Thieves

Big discussion there about the subtle racism in our society. @chilaxe and @longde, here it is.

Whether Forgedreality means it or not -- the message is clear -- if one black person screws up, all black people must bear the burden of that one person's actions.

This. Is. Fucked. Up.


>> ^ForgedReality:

First and last black president ever.

@chilaxe, what @longde said.

Chile baby, where do you live? Both longde and I make specific reference to the South. I wonder if that isn't part of different life experiences, and how that shapes your world view? Have you experienced the subtle and overt racism endemic to the American South? It is truly astounding.

As I walked to work this afternoon, I thought long and hard about why this might upset you, me nonchalantly wondering if this woman is racist (and it's not just you, by the way, I got a PM from someone who was upset also.)

I remembered another story, that might help you understand why I was so quick to think she MIGHT MIGHT MIGHT be a nice, polite, run of the mill Southern American racist....

Another uncle. Another racist uncle. Hated blacks. Used the n word. He and I got into a conversation about it once (not a topic we spent a lot of time on.)

To support his position, he told me that his grandsons never used the n word. But one day, as they walked home from school when they were 8-9 years old, they were jumped by a bunch of black kids and beat up. And now they used the n word and hated all blacks. My uncle told me this proudly, as proof that the world had shown his grandsons the truth. (My uncle grew up in rural Arkansas, his grandsons in California.)

I just looked at him slack jawed. So there were a couple of asshole black kids and now all blacks are n******?!!?

What longde said, chile. A black person does something wrong and something weird is triggered, an anger and a need to extrapolate to all black people and conflate all wrongs done by black people.

I'm not saying that this woman did that. I'm saying she over-reacted in a weird way and I have a possible explanation for it.

Here's the racist's mindset -- I know this, because I recently spent an appalling three days with my racist uncle in Oklahoma:

If a black person does something bad, then all black people are presumed to be bad. If a white person does something bad, then it is just a white person doing something bad.

When bobk made his comment, he was looking at a group of law breakers and extrapolated their behavior onto an entire population, based on the color of their skin, using a word that has been employed by whites to dehumanize and denigrate.

What bobk said was probably the most deeply offensive racist comment I have read here on the Sift. The fact that this is being discussed as an intellectual word problem really bothers me, @smooman. The fact that he didn't get banned for a week or two really bothers me, @dag.

And I am grateful that the line has been drawn in the sand, @bobknight33. Say anything like this again, and you are permanently barred from this site.

One can be somewhat disgusted by both, but mostly with the cops. I will honestly say it was cringey to watch them chanting "This is what Democracy looks like," but at the same time thinking how the hell someone got arrested for dancing! It ain't all black and white! Or is it???

>> ^blankfist:

Yes, let's be disgusted by the people peacefully dancing, not the stupid law against it that gives bully cops the incentive to throw people on the ground. What a bunch of statist idiots.

Oh, its in Phoenix. Its too damn hot to try hard there, especially in an all black outfit... makes perfect sense to throw suspected miscreants against cement walls to stop them from sweatily sauntering away.

Really she's lucky she wasn't drive-by tased from an air-conditioned squad car. Too hot for Lady Justice in Phoenix.

I see what you are trying to say. I don't think you can distinguish from eyeballing, though. There is a third category to keep in mind: the brother who holds his head up in defiance in response to the attitude of some patronizing white person. The could happen across both of your hypothetical groups.

>> ^Enzoblue:
>> ^longde:
I'm curious as to how you know these people's life stories, so much so that you are sure they've never achieved anything of which to be proud? Could it be that you are making a shallow judgment about theim based on their appearance and musical choices? I have to say that I find your blatant snap-prejudice more detestable than some alleged poser's stance.
>> ^Enzoblue:
>> ^longde:
Yeah, how dare those 's have some pride and hold their heads high. Why the nerve? Don't they know their place, dammit!?!?
....Obama's the worst one, I tells ya....>> ^Enzoblue:
I think what this guy is truly objecting to, (if he had the IQ to work it out in his head), is the black man's sense of entitlement which can be over-bearing in some. I read recently about the difference between self-esteem and self-image. Self-esteem coming from good deeds that make positive changes in your world, (that a stereotypical ghetto black man doesn't have), vs self-image that the stereotypical black man is over-flowing with.
You do see this boisterous in your face self-image a lot, just walking down the street with their heads held high, daring anyone to challenge them. The mistake, however, is to lump all blacks in this category and assume that all blacks with their heads held high are doing so to compensate for low self-image, which this guy is doing.


Having pride and holding your head high when you've done nothing to be proud of except perfecting the appearance of being an original gangsta or playa or whatever is detestable. That's what I'm saying. Self-esteem comes from within and can only be obtained by good deeds and caring and empathy. Self-image is a facade, (what you think other people think of you), and is easily faked.


If you agree that holding your head high because you hold 3 jobs to put your kid brother through school and holding your head high because you have a gun in your pocket are two different things, then you'll understand what I'm saying. Those two different attitudes are visibly noticeable too.

>> ^longde:

I'm curious as to how you know these people's life stories, so much so that you are sure they've never achieved anything of which to be proud? Could it be that you are making a shallow judgment about theim based on their appearance and musical choices? I have to say that I find your blatant snap-prejudice more detestable than some alleged poser's stance.
>> ^Enzoblue:
>> ^longde:
Yeah, how dare those 's have some pride and hold their heads high. Why the nerve? Don't they know their place, dammit!?!?
....Obama's the worst one, I tells ya....>> ^Enzoblue:
I think what this guy is truly objecting to, (if he had the IQ to work it out in his head), is the black man's sense of entitlement which can be over-bearing in some. I read recently about the difference between self-esteem and self-image. Self-esteem coming from good deeds that make positive changes in your world, (that a stereotypical ghetto black man doesn't have), vs self-image that the stereotypical black man is over-flowing with.
You do see this boisterous in your face self-image a lot, just walking down the street with their heads held high, daring anyone to challenge them. The mistake, however, is to lump all blacks in this category and assume that all blacks with their heads held high are doing so to compensate for low self-image, which this guy is doing.


Having pride and holding your head high when you've done nothing to be proud of except perfecting the appearance of being an original gangsta or playa or whatever is detestable. That's what I'm saying. Self-esteem comes from within and can only be obtained by good deeds and caring and empathy. Self-image is a facade, (what you think other people think of you), and is easily faked.



If you agree that holding your head high because you hold 3 jobs to put your kid brother through school and holding your head high because you have a gun in your pocket are two different things, then you'll understand what I'm saying. Those two different attitudes are visibly noticeable too.

No, I got that part. I'm just wondering how does one distinguish a "stereotypical" black man from one who simply likes hip hop styles?


>> ^xxovercastxx:
>> ^longde:
I'm curious as to how you know these people's life stories, so much so that you are sure they've never achieved anything of which to be proud? Could it be that you are making a shallow judgment about theim based on their appearance and musical choices? I have to say that I find your blatant snap-prejudice more detestable than some alleged poser's stance.
>> ^Enzoblue:
>> ^longde:
Yeah, how dare those 's have some pride and hold their heads high. Why the nerve? Don't they know their place, dammit!?!?
....Obama's the worst one, I tells ya....>> ^Enzoblue:
I think what this guy is truly objecting to, (if he had the IQ to work it out in his head), is the black man's sense of entitlement which can be over-bearing in some. I read recently about the difference between self-esteem and self-image. Self-esteem coming from good deeds that make positive changes in your world, (that a stereotypical ghetto black man doesn't have), vs self-image that the stereotypical black man is over-flowing with.
You do see this boisterous in your face self-image a lot, just walking down the street with their heads held high, daring anyone to challenge them. The mistake, however, is to lump all blacks in this category and assume that all blacks with their heads held high are doing so to compensate for low self-image, which this guy is doing.


Having pride and holding your head high when you've done nothing to be proud of except perfecting the appearance of being an original gangsta or playa or whatever is detestable. That's what I'm saying. Self-esteem comes from within and can only be obtained by good deeds and caring and empathy. Self-image is a facade, (what you think other people think of you), and is easily faked.


I think you missed the part where Enzo said "stereotypical black man".

>> ^longde:

I'm curious as to how you know these people's life stories, so much so that you are sure they've never achieved anything of which to be proud? Could it be that you are making a shallow judgment about theim based on their appearance and musical choices? I have to say that I find your blatant snap-prejudice more detestable than some alleged poser's stance.
>> ^Enzoblue:
>> ^longde:
Yeah, how dare those 's have some pride and hold their heads high. Why the nerve? Don't they know their place, dammit!?!?
....Obama's the worst one, I tells ya....>> ^Enzoblue:
I think what this guy is truly objecting to, (if he had the IQ to work it out in his head), is the black man's sense of entitlement which can be over-bearing in some. I read recently about the difference between self-esteem and self-image. Self-esteem coming from good deeds that make positive changes in your world, (that a stereotypical ghetto black man doesn't have), vs self-image that the stereotypical black man is over-flowing with.
You do see this boisterous in your face self-image a lot, just walking down the street with their heads held high, daring anyone to challenge them. The mistake, however, is to lump all blacks in this category and assume that all blacks with their heads held high are doing so to compensate for low self-image, which this guy is doing.


Having pride and holding your head high when you've done nothing to be proud of except perfecting the appearance of being an original gangsta or playa or whatever is detestable. That's what I'm saying. Self-esteem comes from within and can only be obtained by good deeds and caring and empathy. Self-image is a facade, (what you think other people think of you), and is easily faked.



I think you missed the part where Enzo said "stereotypical black man".

I'm curious as to how you know these people's life stories, so much so that you are sure they've never achieved anything of which to be proud? Could it be that you are making a shallow judgment about theim based on their appearance and musical choices? I have to say that I find your blatant snap-prejudice more detestable than some alleged poser's stance.

>> ^Enzoblue:
>> ^longde:
Yeah, how dare those 's have some pride and hold their heads high. Why the nerve? Don't they know their place, dammit!?!?
....Obama's the worst one, I tells ya....>> ^Enzoblue:
I think what this guy is truly objecting to, (if he had the IQ to work it out in his head), is the black man's sense of entitlement which can be over-bearing in some. I read recently about the difference between self-esteem and self-image. Self-esteem coming from good deeds that make positive changes in your world, (that a stereotypical ghetto black man doesn't have), vs self-image that the stereotypical black man is over-flowing with.
You do see this boisterous in your face self-image a lot, just walking down the street with their heads held high, daring anyone to challenge them. The mistake, however, is to lump all blacks in this category and assume that all blacks with their heads held high are doing so to compensate for low self-image, which this guy is doing.


Having pride and holding your head high when you've done nothing to be proud of except perfecting the appearance of being an original gangsta or playa or whatever is detestable. That's what I'm saying. Self-esteem comes from within and can only be obtained by good deeds and caring and empathy. Self-image is a facade, (what you think other people think of you), and is easily faked.

>> ^longde:

Yeah, how dare those 's have some pride and hold their heads high. Why the nerve? Don't they know their place, dammit!?!?
....Obama's the worst one, I tells ya....>> ^Enzoblue:
I think what this guy is truly objecting to, (if he had the IQ to work it out in his head), is the black man's sense of entitlement which can be over-bearing in some. I read recently about the difference between self-esteem and self-image. Self-esteem coming from good deeds that make positive changes in your world, (that a stereotypical ghetto black man doesn't have), vs self-image that the stereotypical black man is over-flowing with.
You do see this boisterous in your face self-image a lot, just walking down the street with their heads held high, daring anyone to challenge them. The mistake, however, is to lump all blacks in this category and assume that all blacks with their heads held high are doing so to compensate for low self-image, which this guy is doing.


Having pride and holding your head high when you've done nothing to be proud of except perfecting the appearance of being an original gangsta or playa or whatever is detestable. That's what I'm saying. Self-esteem comes from within and can only be obtained by good deeds and caring and empathy. Self-image is a facade, (what you think other people think of you), and is easily faked.

Yeah, how dare those ******'s have some pride and hold their heads high. Why the nerve? Don't they know their place, dammit!?!?

....Obama's the worst one, I tells ya....>> ^Enzoblue:
I think what this guy is truly objecting to, (if he had the IQ to work it out in his head), is the black man's sense of entitlement which can be over-bearing in some. I read recently about the difference between self-esteem and self-image. Self-esteem coming from good deeds that make positive changes in your world, (that a stereotypical ghetto black man doesn't have), vs self-image that the stereotypical black man is over-flowing with.
You do see this boisterous in your face self-image a lot, just walking down the street with their heads held high, daring anyone to challenge them. The mistake, however, is to lump all blacks in this category and assume that all blacks with their heads held high are doing so to compensate for low self-image, which this guy is doing.