Overall, this is how I summarize your arguments: (A) Life without God is meaningless, and (B) a meaningless life would sometimes be difficult to tolerate, therefore (C) God exists. We pretty much agree on A, and we do agree on B, but C does not follow from A and B. You can correctly conclude that (C) life without God would be difficult to tolerate at times. So? That still doesn’t mean that God exists. I believe that God doesn’t exist, so I conclude from A and B that life is difficult to tolerate at times. Which is true.

My overarching point is to demonstrate the cognitive dissonance inherent in your position. While you have correctly concluded that life without God is meaningless, and I commend you for being intellectually honest to admit this, the point is that you certainly will not live that way. You will actually live as a Christian does, believing that human beings have value and dignity, and that there are good things we should do and bad things we shouldn't do. The problem is, in a meaningless Universe, you have no rational justification for any of these things. You're drowning in a sea of relativism, where a justifies b and b justifies c and c justifies d, and this goes into an infinite regress. You have nowhere to stake a claim, and this is why your atheism becomes a sinkhole which is pulling you down directly into nihilism. In the end, a bag of stardust has no rational justification for morality, or any kind of value. If you are an atheist/agnostic you have to admit you have no value, no dignity, and no basis for good or evil.

Fair point. They may not have ever had the philosophical conversation with themselves about whether their lives have meaning, so it never occurred to them to be upset about it. I agree that it could be a very difficult thing to face, and I think that’s why the human species developed a proclivity for religion. Elsewhere here I’ve suggested we developed metaphysical faith because we’re intelligent and inquisitive, and it freed our minds from the obvious nagging questions of our existence with a one-stop catch-all answer: “Because God”. From an evolutionary perspective, it makes sense. If believing you have a purpose in the grand scheme of things makes you feel better and gives a higher community bond, then it conveys higher survivability to you and your genes. It may be (or once have been) helpful for us to believe that a god exists (any god/gods, mind you, or even a non-deity-based faith system like Buddhism), but this still is not an indication that any god exists.

People worship because they're made to worship. Go around this Earth and you will find people worshiping all manner of Gods and created things, the sun the moon and the stars, celebrity, money, power, themselves. 1 Romans says that God has made Himself evident to people in the things He has made. So, rather than people worshiping because they wanted to avoid meaninglessness, they worship because it the most natural thing for them to do which matches their experience. People don't naturally conclude life is meaningless; they know from their experience that it is very meaningful. They are taught it is meaningless through philosophy and the ennui that comes from modern life. You will never find a population of natural atheists anywhere on the planet.

I’m going to be blunt here: you don’t have a clue what depression is. You’re starting with your conclusion, and applying it to whatever pop psychology you’ve picked up. You’re like a North Korean telling me what democracy is, and concluding that Kim Jong Un therefore is the greatest person on Earth. I know what depression is for me, for my family members and my friends who have suffered from it, and I have done private research on it beyond that. Reducing depression to the factor of “hope” is incorrect, and presuming to know something because you’ve got Yahweh on your side is arrogant. You don’t know us, you don’t understand our condition, so please don’t assume to speak for us. You can guess, and you can ask me, and I’ll tell you what I feel, what I have experienced, and what I have learned. Then if it fits your argument, you can let me know.

I can speak on depression because I used to be depressed. I know what it is like, and having come out of it, I am qualified to speak on what I can clearly see as being the number one issue; hopelessness. A person who depressed is carrying burdens in their life which tell them that tomorrow will not be better than today, in fact it will probably be worse. People who are depressed often times see no reason to carry on at all. This could be for a number of reasons; living situation, health, low self-esteem, loneliness, finances, abuse, or perhaps all of the above. In the end, it all boils down to a lack of hope that whatever they are depressed about will ever change or get better, or that it would matter if it did. People who have hope are happy and not depressed.

Your first sentences are close enough I’ll just agree. The last one is your own fantasy straight out of nowhere. That aside, so what? We’re close to killing ourselves. I don’t know if humanity will survive another 100 years. I hope it does, but I can’t know. It’s hard to face, and very frustrating to watch our so-called leaders (who all leverage claimed faith in God, mind you) pissing it all away for money and power. No other age has had to face the possibility of the destruction of civilization. It’s hard. You said your point was that there’s nobody in the driver’s seat. I agree. What’s your point? How do you figure Yahweh’s “in the driver’s seat”?

So, I suppose the point is that it is hopeless. Not only is a life without God meaningless, but if this world is not under the sovereign control of God, it is doomed to destruction. This is what I mean when I have said in the past that in all of our history human beings have made absolutely no progress what so ever. All of the knowledge in the world doesn't count for anything if you don't have the wisdom to use it. All of our learning is simply hubris when you take a look at the condition of the world today. It is actually more wicked at this time than any other time in history. I believe God is in absolute control because He has shown me this is true. I'll give you an example:

One time I had to hitchhike across country. This was just before I became a Christian and I wasn't sure about Jesus. I was kind of scared having never really hitchhiked before, so I prayed and said: "Jesus, if you are the Son of God, and I need to know you, please help me through this. I can't do it on my own so I am going to trust you to help me". After I prayed this prayer, everything was lined up for me as if it was programmed. Money, food and rides all came to me at the right time in the right place. For instance, I would meet someone in one spot and they would help me, and then 800 miles away in a different state on a different day I would meet them again. This happened to me 3 times. Two of them I met in the same place within 20 minutes apart, and they both were met in different states many hundreds of miles away. The timing of all of this was practically impossible. Only God could have arranged me to keep meeting the same people when they were going in opposite directions across the country and on different routes, at the same time. Even if they were going in the same routes and directions it would still be improbable. Not to mention they were in small windows of time where I was in the right place at the right time to see them.

Separate from those people, let’s imagine there’s a group of people who feel they’re experiencing the same bliss you feel in your numinous experiences, but they feel it only when they hurt or kill people. Now, I’m asserting that these people probably don’t exist, but if they did, people behaving according to the principles of what’s “good” (which I’ll get to later) would have to restrain them from hurting other people, and with a heavy heart, would probably imprison them. And while they were in prison, compassionate people on the outside might be researching ways to help the inmates self-realize – within the limits of their confinement, like they do in the Swedish penal system.

Actually, one of the defining characteristics of being a psychopath is the ruthless manipulation of others for pleasure and short term gain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

You can say your bliss is better and more noble than their bliss but you would have no justification in doing so. There is actually no reason in your worldview to say that psychopaths aren't normal and you are abnormal.

The reason we’re having this conversation, or at least the reason I am, is because we both already have a sense that some things are right and other things are wrong. That is primary. We both agree that we have this sense, and that for us it feels important to follow it. So for me, the fact that I have this feeling that some actions are good and others aren’t is all the “ought” I need. I don’t need anybody’s permission or orders. I ought to do things that I feel are good things to do. So, whether my conscience comes from human DNA (my position) or from an external entity (your position) doesn’t matter because we have both already decided to follow it, and so has just about every human on Earth.

Yes, we both have that sense, but the difference is you have no basis for saying your sense of right and wrong is any better than the psychopath, or that yours should be preferred. If someone feels it right to hurt and steal from you, who are you to tell them that they ought not to do that? According to what you've said here, that would make you a hypocrite.

There’s nobody who’s going to judge my soul when I’m dead, so in that sense, once I’m dead, it won’t matter to me in the least what I do now once I’m dead because I’ll be dead.

You say this with certainly but I think you have to recognize that this is your hope. I wonder where this hope comes from? Since you've never been dead before to see what happens, what makes you so sure about it? Could this information about life after death exist in the 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 percent of things that you don't know?

What I want to do at any given time is what feels good to me, and that’s the same with almost everyone, in spite of what religions teach people about their wicked “fallen” souls and how not to trust themselves (except when they paradoxically teach us to trust ourselves).

You're absolutely right about that. The scripture says when there is no King every man does what is right in his own eyes. It also says that there is a way that seems right to man, but the end of its ways is death. Also, interestingly, this philosophy matches the only rule of Satanism "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"

Christianity teaches that we should trust in God with all of our heart and lean not on our own understanding.

I don’t feel I’m wasting any time navigating any landscape. I hardly think about morality at all, since to me, it’s quite easy. Jesus knew it; he just claimed that his father had made it up. I think it’s human nature. It gives me immense joy to see people in love getting married. That extends identically to same-sex people too. See? It’s not complex. Taking what I can when I can in the malevolent sense feels awful, and I don’t want to do that.

Right, but not doing things because they make you feel bad isn't the question. Unless there is an absolute morality, these are just chemical reactions in your brain. Your mind is deluding you into thinking something is bad by secreting a certain chemical which makes you feel guilty when you steal, and secreting a certain chemical that makes you feel good when you don't do it. These things aren't really bad, they are just how your brain evolved. So, why be a slave to chemicals? I would also ask how you think the brain understands the complex moral scenarios we find ourselves in and rewards or doesn't reward accordingly? Doesn't that seem fairly implausible to you?

I agree completely (except where you said I think it’s out of ignorance or automatic function, which I didn’t say). You say it’s about people getting carried away or being enticed. What I was explaining is when that happens and why. It’s not relevant anyway. People are the only ones who can be held responsible for their own actions, and they should be, but not because they are bad people who need to be punished, but because their behaviour hurt someone and as a member of society, they need to understand this, make amends, and hopefully change their behaviour moving forward.

What makes someone a bad person?

But I would have had to already accept Yahweh to think that’s true. And I don’t, so it’s not. Nothing in me tells me that the bible is a holy book or that following it has anything to do with what is good, so I don’t need to follow any religious dogma.

Do you think this could have something to do with the fact that the bible says you should do things you don't want to do, or that you should stop doing things you don't want to stop doing?

It involves accepting one assertion: Harris’ definition of “bad”. If you accept that, and you accept that “good” is its opposite, then moving away from something bad must be good. I think your problem with my argument is that there’s no argument for a metaphysical morality. That’s because I don’t believe in one. As I said above, this whole conversation, for me, is based on our shared feeling that there are right and wrong things. That’s it. If I kick someone’s dog, no matter who they are or what their religion, they’re going to know without consulting any authority that I did a horrible thing. I don’t really know why, and I don’t care. I do know that humans share this sense, and I’m keen to live with respect to it.

Well, there you go. You have no justification for right and wrong, and you admit that. You don't know why, and you don't care, so you go by your feelings. This is the cognitive dissonance I was talking about at the beginning of the post. You know intellectually that a meaningless Universes gives you no basis for morality, but you don't live that way. You live as a Christian does, judging what is good and evil and acting as if life has meaning and value when you know that it doesn't. You are fooling yourself into ascribing meaning to what you know are just chemical reactions in your brain. There is analogy made to the brain being like a soda can..you shake it up and it starts fizzing, which is just like the chemical reaction in our brains. One is fizzing morally and the other is fizzing immorally. What's the difference?

Your atheism leaves you in the position of not being able to tell me that something like child rape is absolutely wrong. In your world, there is no such thing, and if everyone thought it was right, it would be.

Yahweh’s morality is nowhere near as simple as a secular morality. Where in those two commandments of Jesus does it say that using condoms or allowing same-sex couples to marry is wrong? In fact, saving lives, preventing unwanted pregnancies and allowing all loving couples to get married are ways to love your neighbour, and they’re exactly what I would want my neighbour to do or advocate for on my behalf.

God wrote His commandments on our hearts, which is the reason your feelings tell you what is right and wrong. It's very easy for everyone to understand Gods laws because we already know them. The problem is that people suppress the truth about God, and so people are deceived about what is good and evil are just doing what is right in their own eyes. I didn't understand growing up that fornication was wrong because society said it was okay, but now that the deception has been lifted my heart is in agreement with it. I know that is wrong, not just because Gods law says it is, but because it is written upon my heart.

First, you’re talking in circles. If Harris’ model of morality is arbitrary, then so is Jesus’ model of “do unto others…” because they amount to pretty much the same thing, and what one person wants his neighbours to do may not be the same as someone else’s, etc. At some level, we’re going to have to determine for ourselves what’s right and what’s not.

We have the freedom to obey or disobey God. The one thing God will never do is make you obey Him. In that sense, you have to determine whether you will do what is good or evil.

Second, you can’t possibly make the argument that “better for people” and “makes the world worse” are arbitrary concepts. They’re not perfectly defined, but that doesn’t mean arbitrary. As for the torturing babies example, according to Harris’ morality, it’s bad because babies are people, and torture causes misery. Where’s the ambiguity?

The ambiguity comes in when you assert these things with no rational justification. You admitted earlier that you have no ultimate justification for right and wrong, so why do you think Harris somehow does?

Third, do you picture a world where everyone suddenly agrees that torturing babies is OK? Do you really believe that without religion people have absolutely no internal direction whatsoever, and will accept torturing of babies as acceptable? I don’t. So, no, Harris’ moral system does not allow for the possibility of torturing babies.

This is really an argument from incredulity. I'm sure no one pictured an entire society could be convinced that killing millions of jews is a good thing, but it happened. People can and have agreed to do some extremely wicked things. The point is that if morality is based upon what people agree on, and people can potentially agree on anything, then you have a moral system that could call the same thing good or evil depending on what the opinion was at that time. That is no basis for morality.

But yours does. Whatever else you address, please answer this: I believe –and forgive me if I’m putting words into your mouth– somewhere on the Sift you agreed that if God commanded you to do something people think is horrible (like torture an infant/rape your own son/etc.), that you would do it. Is that true to say? If so, then by your own witness and a test you came up with, it’s your system that allows for the possibility of absolutely any vile act, and it’s time for it to go.

I don't recall saying this. There is the divine command theory which states that whatever God commands is ethically good. For instance, although God commanded us not to kill, He used the Israelites to judge the Canaanites after giving them 450 years to repent. This though was a unique situation because God ruled the Israelites directly as His own kingdom. The only other example I can think of is Abraham and Issac, and of course God didn't want Abraham to kill Issac.

These days, though, we're under a new covenant, and Gods Spirit dwells within His people. There is no example of God telling us to do anything contrary to His word in the NT, and therefore I see no basis for agreeing that I would either.

If you think I’m being ridiculous, what do you think is more likely: that a society somewhere will suddenly realize that they feel just fine about torturing babies, or that a society somewhere will get the idea that it’s their god’s will that they torture babies? Human instinct is much more consistent than the will of any gods ever recorded.

What about all of Pagan societies throughout the ages that sacrificed their children to demons?

If this were true, there would be no need for courts, judges, prisons, or police officers. There are also laws which may make some people miserable but are necessary for the greater good.

True. Your point?

"a conscience precludes the need for an external set of laws."

The point is, without enforcement a person is free to violate their conscience as freely and as often as they choose without any consequences. A conscience doesn't preclude the need for an external set of laws because most people willfully ignore their own conscience.

It’s not arbitrarily invented. Religion is. I must be misunderstanding you. By my reading, your argument is that the connection between reducing people’s misery and doing good is arbitrary. Is that right? You don’t think that wanting to help people who are suffering is normal and good? If you agree that there is a connection between the two, that’s all you need. If you don’t agree, then your morality system really sucks, and I don’t know who I’m talking to.

Christianity wasn't arbitrarily invented, it is revealed truth. I've also already covered this throughout the reply. According to you, unless you appeal to an authority, you have no basis for right and wrong, and neither you or Harris have any authority to appeal to in a meaningless Universe. You're content to just follow your feelings and not think about it, which I pointed it is cognitive dissonance.

The fact is, in a meaningless Universe you simply can't prove anything without God. That is the proof that God exists in the middle of all of this. You are living like a Christian while denying God with your atheism. You actually have no basis for logic, rationality, morality, uniformity in nature, but you live as if you do. If I ask you how you know your reasoning is valid, you will reply "by using my reasoning". That would be the same as me saying that God exists because He exists. It is a viciously circular argument that you would never accept from me. I can point to a transcendent God who reveals truth, and tells us what is right and wrong, and is the source for the uniformity in nature. I can justify these things, but you cannot.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/06/29/half-german-teens-dont-know-hitler-dictator_n_ 1636593.html

I take it you didn’t read the article yourself. There’s no mention of Americans, anyone of college age, nor anyone who can’t identify Hitler. It’s about German high school students who didn’t know that Hitler was a dictator, etc. Please take better care with your arguments. It’s disrespectful and a waste of my time.

Sorry. I can't remember what I was thinking of, or if I wasn't just confusing one thing for another. Perhaps I was thinking of this:

http://videosift.com/video/Ray-Comfort-Teaches-about-Adolf-Hitler

>> ^messenger:

stuff

i have to agree with @xxovercastxx
while this video brings up questions i have always found interesting.the speaker does cherry pick to build an argument for a pre-determined conclusion.
a conclusion which promotes his view of the world.

to suggest that an atheist or agnostic has no meaning,or can never find meaning in their lives due to an absence of religion,is not only intellectual dishonesty but lacks imagination.

the reason why this confounds or eludes many religious folk is because religion is externalized.
they derive meaning through submission to a higher power ie:god,jesus,allah,(fill in deity here).
they adhere to a doctrine and dogma that the atheist/agnostic does not.so both parties view/experience their worlds in very different manners.so it should be no surprise that there would be a disconnect between these two parties,because they approach the "meaning of life" question from very different perspectives.

as an agnostic I think one of the key things that atheists AND religious people alike need to get past is the possibility that maybe there is a god, but religion as we know it is just flat out wrong.

Most religion as we know it is wrong. This is the religion approved by God:

James 1:27

Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world

Maybe there is a god, but there is no religion. Maybe god doesn't care if you pray or don't pray. Maybe a god created us, but has since moved on and isn't watching us and otherwise doesn't give a damn about us anymore

What if god isn't really god, maybe we were created, but by some hyper-advanced aliens.

Maybe God became a man, Jesus Christ, and died for the sins of the world?

What if god doesn't dictate morality...maybe we create morality. God used to be ok with slavery...then we decided differently. Why aren't we getting flooded again if God was down with slavery?

http://www.comereason.org/soc_culture/soc060.asp

What if god is a tyrant? You know what the US does with tyrannical governments right?

I'm not really sure how to reply to this comment.

Whenever I used to think about that stuff as a kid . I put myself in god's shoes. Ok, I just created humanity. What's that? you're worshiping me and giving me thanks? ok that's sweet and all, but I want you to go out and do stuff. What's that? a whole day devoted to me? no...just no. I get it that you're thankful..but it's time to move on. What's that? you're killing other humans in my name? Just...no..just stop it!

Why would you think, as a flawed, subjective, morally imperfect being (that's all of us), that you could understand the mind of God? Perhaps God ordained worship for a reason that you don't understand?

Seriously, I think that's what every religious person needs to ask themselves. If you created a species. Would you want it constantly fighting and bickering and killing each other in your name? Nah, you'd want people to get along no matter how different they were?

If people followed what Jesus taught, none of that would be happening.

Religious people who are parents, would you really like it if your kids CONSTANTLY prayed to you and gave you thanks? We currently only spend Father's Day and Mother's Day devoted to our parents. Do you really think kids should be that devoted to their parents? Or do you want them to grow up and go out into the world and do big things?

Our parents don't uphold the atoms in our bodies. God is who makes all things possible.

James 1:17

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

I'm sure there are many times in your life that you've wanted to give thanks for the good things God has done for you, but you have no one to thank. I think that's is a sad moment for an unbeliever.

Bottom line is that what we know is completely and utterly dominated by what we don't know. Column A is just a TAD bit bigger than Column B if you know what I mean. So it's utter absurdity to make claims that you know that there is no god..just the same as it is to claim that there is a god and you know exactly what it wants. Even people in the same religion can't seem to agree what god wants and get into extremely petty and hurtful fights over this shit.

so this supposed "battle" between theists and atheists is just ego getting completely out of hand IMO

We're all on the same fucking team...start acting like it.

The only way you could know the truth is if you are omnipotent, or an omnipotent being told you. Christians are claiming the latter. I have a route to truth, and you don't, so how are you telling me I don't know what it is? How would you know that?

>> ^VoodooV

>> ^xxovercastxx:

>> ^VoodooV:
as an agnostic I think one of the key things that atheists AND religious people alike need to get past is the possibility that maybe there is a god, but religion as we know it is just flat out wrong.
Maybe there is a god, but there is no religion. Maybe god doesn't care if you pray or don't pray. Maybe a god created us, but has since moved on and isn't watching us and otherwise doesn't give a damn about us anymore
This would qualify as Deism, FYI. You don't hear much about it these days but it was quite popular a couple hundred years ago. I think a lot of religious people actually fall under this umbrella now but may not be familiar with the term.


I'm not a deist, I'm just giving it as an example as atheists and religious people alike seem to fuse religion and god into one thing. They are two very separate things.

Question 1: Does a creator exist <yes/no/IDK>

Question 2: If a creator exists, what does it want? If anything.

>> ^VoodooV:

as an agnostic I think one of the key things that atheists AND religious people alike need to get past is the possibility that maybe there is a god, but religion as we know it is just flat out wrong.
Maybe there is a god, but there is no religion. Maybe god doesn't care if you pray or don't pray. Maybe a god created us, but has since moved on and isn't watching us and otherwise doesn't give a damn about us anymore

This would qualify as Deism, FYI. You don't hear much about it these days but it was quite popular a couple hundred years ago. I think a lot of religious people actually fall under this umbrella now but may not be familiar with the term.

as an agnostic I think one of the key things that atheists AND religious people alike need to get past is the possibility that maybe there is a god, but religion as we know it is just flat out wrong.

Maybe there is a god, but there is no religion. Maybe god doesn't care if you pray or don't pray. Maybe a god created us, but has since moved on and isn't watching us and otherwise doesn't give a damn about us anymore

What if god isn't really god, maybe we were created, but by some hyper-advanced aliens.

What if god doesn't dictate morality...maybe we create morality. God used to be ok with slavery...then we decided differently. Why aren't we getting flooded again if God was down with slavery?

What if god is a tyrant? You know what the US does with tyrannical governments right?

Whenever I used to think about that stuff as a kid . I put myself in god's shoes. Ok, I just created humanity. What's that? you're worshiping me and giving me thanks? ok that's sweet and all, but I want you to go out and do stuff. What's that? a whole day devoted to me? no...just no. I get it that you're thankful..but it's time to move on. What's that? you're killing other humans in my name? Just...no..just stop it!

Seriously, I think that's what every religious person needs to ask themselves. If you created a species. Would you want it constantly fighting and bickering and killing each other in your name? Nah, you'd want people to get along no matter how different they were? Religious people who are parents, would you really like it if your kids CONSTANTLY prayed to you and gave you thanks? We currently only spend Father's Day and Mother's Day devoted to our parents. Do you really think kids should be that devoted to their parents? Or do you want them to grow up and go out into the world and do big things?

Bottom line is that what we know is completely and utterly dominated by what we don't know. Column A is just a TAD bit bigger than Column B if you know what I mean. So it's utter absurdity to make claims that you know that there is no god..just the same as it is to claim that there is a god and you know exactly what it wants. Even people in the same religion can't seem to agree what god wants and get into extremely petty and hurtful fights over this shit.

so this supposed "battle" between theists and atheists is just ego getting completely out of hand IMO

We're all on the same fucking team...start acting like it.

>> ^A10anis:

Only the last 6 commandments have any relevance at all (Oh, and the 10th prohibits the coveting of thy neighbours donkey and servants..hmm). The first 4 are are the ranting edicts of an egotistical, vain, megalomaniac. Any reasonably intelligent person could produce 10 better rules to live by.


I'm still waiting for Atheists/Agnostics to come up with their own 10 Commandments. It should be ridiculously simple to create 10 basic rules for living a sane and helpful life that directly challenges solipsism and the idea that you need a god to have morality.

1. Don't be self-centered, you are not the only one trying to make it in the universe.
2. You can't succeed alone. Everyone needs help from time to time.
3. You can accomplish more with help than you can alone, so treat people with respect and respect will be given to you.

of course you could probably condense that down into one rule.

Don't kill and don't steal are still valid rules. Nothing wrong with coveting as long as it doesn't lead to killing and stealing. Coveting is the basis for capitalism after all I'm jealous of the shit you have so not only am I going to do what it takes to get the same things, I'm going to get more..regardless of whether or not I need it.

@shinyblurry
you have it backwards.
my authority derives from the creator,YOU on the other hand derive your authority from a book.

and please stop deluding yourself into thinking you have any idea who i am.
because you dont.
and to insinuate i have turned people from christ when i have specifically told you details to the contrary is just vulgar.

what saddens me the most is that your unquestioning,slack-jawed adherence to a flawed document will keep you in a perpetual state of spiritual childhood.

the gospels were meant to free you,not enslave you to a book.
but a slave you have become and you defend that tiny prison you live in like a child who only wishes to remain sleeping and dreaming of deliverance.

any information that may be perceived as contrary to your theosophy will have you scouring the apologist pages for a retort.you become copy-paste happy in order to refute any contrary information in regards to the BOOK you hold in your hand.

are you totally unaware of your OWN motivations?
this is a secular site.the majority here are atheists and/or agnostics.
many of them former christians of one flavor or another and some even from fundamentalist families.so they have become quite adept at communicating the flaws they have found in biblical text.

do you think they do this JUST to annoy you?
did it ever occur to you that maybe..just maybe..many here are actually just sharing the very information that changed their minds concerning religion,god and their place in the universe?
and have you noticed how you treat them?
with arrogance and condescension.
the irony being that you will throw a fit if someone treats you in such a manner yet ignore when you,yourself,partake in such bad manners.
it is the height of hypocrisy.

you have made many ignore lists due to your inability to self regulate.Kceaton being the most recent.which is a shame because he is a righteous dude who has the courage to speak from the heart and has often attempted to speak to you with open-ness and honesty.
many here have and you have responded with arrogance,condescension and a self=righteousness that is annoying as it is petty and small.

and all this because you got your authority from a book.
that somehow you have gleaned the mysteries of the cosmos and people who do not garner their understandings from the same,tangible and physical BOOK are somehow automatically wrong.

you are not perfect.
your understandings are flawed.
your arguments are watered-down copy-pasted weak sauce and the majority of the time not even your own.
you are a child who needs to grow up.

and if you ever even suggest that i turn people from christ again,you will be on my ignore list as well.i tire of dealing with your passive aggressive nature.
it has become dull and boring.
grow up shiny.

(sorry for the lengthy rant everybody, but seeing shiny insinuate that i have turned people from christ just set me off)

Don't lump Agnostics in with the Atheist I find it a bit insulting. I'm Agnostic, I believe their is a god just that no human can possibly comprehend his existence and therefore no religion could possibly be even close to right because every single holy book was written by man and therefore fatally flawed. I don't think god is either malevolent or benevolent I think he just is. If I had to hazard a guess as to the identity of god I think the universe as a whole itself IS god. That explains just about everything from evolution to the existence of good and evil. Light, dark, intelligence, and the possibility of life outside of our own planet.

That said Pat Robinson is the biggest scam artist of all time, and the fact that he's even involved in this scheme makes me pause. Rule of thumb anyone trying to make money off their religion is probably not a trustworthy person.

>> ^VoodooV:

Funny that's what the agnostics and atheists argue when it comes to belief in a god. Just because you can't think of a better reason, doesn't mean god did it.
The so called morality of the Christian god has been demonstrated time and time again to be in conflict to what we know of as a free and just democratic society where all people are equal...not just the "chosen" ones who believe.
The instant we decided that slavery was wrong, we became better than the Christian god
The instant we decided that stonings were not an appropriate method of punishment, we became better than the Christian god.

>> ^Morganth:
Just because you can't think of a good reason why God would allow evil and suffering to continue, therefore there can't be one? Why would that be? That's some very poor logic. >> ^A10anis:
Epicurus had it correct in 300BCE;
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Don't let these brainwashed self deluders, with their childish concepts, take us back to an age when every aspect of life was controlled by their cult. They are free to be slaves to their gods in private, but free, logical, 21st century, intelligent thinkers, should fight tooth and nail to keep it out of Politics and, especially, away from our kids and schools.

"if you don't have a god"

once again, god and religion are being melded into one thing. God and religion are two separate things.

"does a creator exist?" That's one question. There could be a creator, or there may not be one. I'm an agnostic because I say "I don't know." The definition of atheism that I *repeatedly* see states "no, there is no creator" so by that metric, agnostics are NOT atheists

Assuming you do believe that there is a creator, that leads to the second question, "what do you think that creator wants you to do?" That's where religion comes into play. What if there is a creator, but that creator doesn't care what you do? or what if that creator wants you to find your own way instead of being dictated to by commandments and popes and priests. So now you have a creator..but no religion. Personally, I've never had any problem with the idea of a creator, but this notion that a creator wants you to worship it and constantly give thanks is pretty absurd. Why would a creator NEED worship? why would it want it's creation spending a large amount of time worshiping it and doing it's bidding? Why would a creator need minions? why would a creator NEED subservient subjects? People refer to "God's Army" What does a creator need of an army? It's ridiculous.

A creator is one question, religion is another. There could be a creator, but even if there is, most, if not all religions are demonstrably stupid and/or harmful.

Funny that's what the agnostics and atheists argue when it comes to belief in a god. Just because you can't think of a better reason, doesn't mean god did it.

The so called morality of the Christian god has been demonstrated time and time again to be in conflict to what we know of as a free and just democratic society where all people are equal...not just the "chosen" ones who believe.

The instant we decided that slavery was wrong, we became better than the Christian god
The instant we decided that stonings were not an appropriate method of punishment, we became better than the Christian god.


>> ^Morganth:

Just because you can't think of a good reason why God would allow evil and suffering to continue, therefore there can't be one? Why would that be? That's some very poor logic. >> ^A10anis:
Epicurus had it correct in 300BCE;
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Don't let these brainwashed self deluders, with their childish concepts, take us back to an age when every aspect of life was controlled by their cult. They are free to be slaves to their gods in private, but free, logical, 21st century, intelligent thinkers, should fight tooth and nail to keep it out of Politics and, especially, away from our kids and schools.

Similarly, we can instantiate in enough physical rules to get the "chance" universe you describe going, and its rules could get it to the current state either determinalistically or with some element of randomness. I guess I understand how you're using "chance" here... but I don't know that it's terribly useful. Why should "what humans can predict" be of any relevance philosophically? And if we're using it that way, couldn't we similarly describe God's actions as chance? I mean, surely humans (or angels) can't predict everything he's going to do. Chance seems like a pejorative when applied to God.. and to me it seems like a pejorative when applied to the operations of the universe (except where, again, that operation is actually random).

However, again, I don't think this difference is terribly important. I think I understand what you're getting at, I just see things very differently.

The difference between chance and design is the most important distinction there is. If you don't like the word chance, I will use the word "unplanned", or "mindless". An unplanned Universe has no actual purpose; it is just happenstance. Meaning, your life is just a product of mindless processes, and concepts like morality, justice, and truth have no essential meaning. It means you are just some blip on a grid and there is no rhyme or reason to anything. It also means you will never find out what happened or why it happened because no one knows what is going on or ever will. This will *always* lead you to nihilism.

A designed Universe, on the other hand, does have a purpose. A purposeful Universe means that life was created for a reason. It means that there is a truth, a truth that only the Creator knows. Which means that all lines of inquiry will lead to the Creators doorstep, and that trying to understand the Universe without the Creator is completely futile. It is like looking at a painting with three marks on it..you could endlessly speculate on what the painter was thinking when he painted it. However, no matter how clever you were, you don't have enough information to be sure about anything. To refuse to seek the Creator would be to stare at that painting your whole life trying to figure it out when you have the painters business card with his phone number on it in your pocket.

I don't think you're phrasing this in a terribly fair way. Yes, many people assume there's a natural explanation for abiogenesis. This is partly because having another explanation introduces arbitrariness into the system. Say I'm a geologist and I discover Devil's Tower. It's really weird, but my inclination from the very start is that it was formed by similar processes to ones that have explained weird things in the past. Even if I can't postulate even a guess as to why it has those weird columns, I'm not crazy to guess that eventually we'll figure out an explanation that doesn't involve, say, new physical laws or aliens. (And it's certainly not helpful to say "maybe it was made in the flood").

The whole thing is arbitrary to begin with. Naturalistic explanations are assumed apriori, and then the evidence is interpreted through the conclusion. That isn't how science works. You come to the conclusion because of the evidence, not the other way around. I would also note that you would never accept this kind of reasoning from a creationist. Neither does a mountain of circumstantial evidence prove anything.

Abiogenesis is a bigger problem and it's also one that's "lost to time" a bit. It almost certainly requires a mechanism we have yet to identify (or a mechanism someone has guessed at, but hasn't provided good details or evidence for). But, like Devil's Tower, there's no reason to expect that mechanism won't be identified - or that it will require significant changes to our understanding of the rest of science. Again, there's plausible ideas already floating around, and I think we'll probably recreate the process (though likely not with the same actual process) within the next 30 years or so.

Anything sounds plausible, apparently, when you have billions of years to play with. As the earlier quote said, time itself performs the miracles for you. How do you know that the mechanism hasn't already been identified but you have rejected it?

http://creation.com/devils-tower-explained

No... that, I think, is probably our strongest point of disagreement. I'm very much OK with "I don't know", and literally everything I believe has a bit of "I don't know" attached (kind of similar to how everything you believe in has a bit of God attached).

I'm not worshipping ignorance or something - knowing IS better than not knowing. But I'm also not scared of not knowing things - and I'm certainly not just going to pick something and believe in it because I don't like having some of my answer pages blank.

For you, is Scientology better than "I don't know"?

The point I'm trying to make is, I don't know isn't a theory. What most atheists mean when they say "I don't know" is "I know it isn't the Christian God, but otherwise I don't know". The next thing they say is, you believe in God because you're afraid. That I "chose" God because I am scared of death, or because the Universe is too big and scary for my mind to handle the uncertainty of not knowing.

I have to say that this idea of a bunch of hokey. The Christians I know believe in God because they have a personal relationship with Him. It has nothing to do with making a choice..God chose us. He would chose you too, if you were open to Him.

Neither was I afraid of death when I was an agnostic, and I wasn't afraid of saying I don't know (that's why I was an agnostic, because I didn't know). I believe in God because He revealed Himself to me, and that is the only reason. If He hadn't, I would still be an agnostic.

It is credible to believe that the Universe was designed and created by God. We can see that whomever made the Universe is unimaginably powerful, intelligent, exists outside of space and time, etc. Scientology isn't credible and explains nothing. God can explain everything.

Also, thanks for using the big boy version of the Bible. I quite like the Bible artistically, but I can't stand some of the new translations (despite whatever benefits some parts may have in terms of clarity).

Most of the new translations butcher the scriptures. They remove entire verses, words, water down meanings, or just flat out mislead. I can't stand them either. The KJV is the best word for word translation that we have, and although the language is archaic, it is comprehensible with a little research.

>> ^jmzero

I think we have to take certain things for granted because not everything can be proven empirically. There is no way to empirically prove that the Universe is actually real. To say that it is real you have to rely on your senses and reasoning. You can't say those are valid without using viciously circular logic. "My reasoning is valid because my reasoning says so" Without assuming certain things, apriori, the world would be unintelligable. Neither could you do science. To do science you have to assume the uniformity in the nature. How do you prove it? By assuming the future will be like the past. What is the evidence that the future will be like the past? The past. It's the same vicious circularity.

As far as Gods existence goes, I never assumed either way. I knew I didn't have enough information to say either way, so I was agnostic by default. I only changed my mind when I received evidence. I wasn't under any pressure to do so, nor was I even looking to do so.

So, while science has a pitiless indifference to how you feel in regards to what is true, it is not the sole arbitor of what is true. This idea that empiricism is the only way to determine truth cannot be proven empirically, ironically. It is an assumption that materialists make with no actual evidence. The argument seems to be that since we can build a space shuttle, empiricism must the way. Yet, that isn't a logical argument. Empiricism might be useful, but it isn't the only method of inquiry that is useful. Everything has its place, and empiricism has a hard limit to what it can prove.

Yes, there certainly is material out there. Does that we can see and test material means that material causes are the only possible solution? We can't see dark matter, dark energy, other universes, other dimensions, yet scientists have no trouble postulating about what we can't see. So why not postulate that the Universe has a non-material causation? Why not an intelligent causation? I would say the evidence is a lot more convincing for intelligent design than other Universes, yet science only considers one to be plausible. Don't you think that is irrational?

I'll ask you the same question I ask messenger..how would you tell the difference between a random chance Universe and one that God designed? What test could you conduct to find out which one you were in? When you can come up with a test to determine that, then you can tell me that there is no evidence. Logically, if there is a God, the entire Universe is evidence. Isn't it possible that you are staring at something divinely ordered but don't realize it?

>> ^gwiz665:

You make a good point. In our daily life we are certain about a lot of things, or rather we accept things for granted without any thoroughly investigated evidence. We assume that we exist, because that's needed for us to assume it. We assume we have free will, because it feels like we have free will.
I also live as if there is no God, because of the "path of least resistance" - it is easier to assume there is no god, than to assume there is, and since it has no difference to me, the easiest solution is fine. I think for many theists, it least resistance to assume that there is a god, and live as if he exists, be it because of social pressure, mindset or what have you - in any case, their path of least resistance is to assume he exists. If you think about all the shit an outed atheist go through in some states, I can't really blame them for that too much.
It is a different deal when you get into the science of it, because in science we deal with what is real and what is not. The good thing about science is that it doesn't care. It doesn't care about your feelings, it doesn't care that lots of people like a thing, it only exist to show the truth and to show nature for what it really is.
Materialism is absolute in that it's really there, like Feynman says so excellent in his video about the electro-magnetic spectrum. It may not have much of an effect in your everyday life how light moves in waves and how it's similar to how water makes waves, but that doesn't make it any less true. You can assume that they are unrelated if you want, and if that makes you sleep better at night, but it's just not how nature works.
If you take the issue of God under the microscope, you find that there's not much evidence backing it up when you really look. The social pressure is there, and the cultural ramifications are there, but there's no evidence backing up the actual existence. The hypothesis "it was all made up" has equal merit, because you can find just as many traces of this than you can of it actually being real.

Hey Adam,

Thank you for sharing your background with me, and for your kind-hearted attitude. I haven't taken any offense to what you've said. I'll try to answer your questions as best I can.

I'll relate some of my background to you first of all. I grew up in a secular home, and there wasn't any talk of religion in my household, for or against. There was a bible in my house, and although I attempted to read it as a child, I didn't get past the "begats" in Genesis. I thought that perhaps that was the entire rest of the book. I grew up knowing nothing much about religion, and so I was agnostic by default.

It wasn't until a bit later in life that I received revelation that there is a God. At the time, I had started to ponder what the truth actually was. I started to search for it, because I felt that the love was slowly draining out of this world, that things were going really wrong, and it got to the point where I felt personally convicted to stand up and do something. What, I had no idea, but more than anything else, I wanted to know the real truth.

It was very shortly after this that I received revelation from God of His existence. Although I wasn't precisely looking for God at the time, I believe that He gave me this revelation because I was searching for the truth. God showed me that He was there, and that He is personally interested and involved in my life, and that He loved me. Needless to say, this was utterly shocking, and as naturalistic materialist, my mind was blown. I found out in a moments time that all that I knew was in some way, wrong. There was no room in my worldview for a Spirit, but God shattered that mold.

He didn't come out and say who He was, though. Instead, He had me investigate all of the various religions, belief systems, philosophies etc that I could..everything from Asatru to Zen Buddhism, and while I was doing this He gave me clues about Himself along the way. What I ended up believing was that none of the worlds religions were correct. I essentially believed that while they all might contain some element of thetruth about God, they were imperfect representations of who He is. I definitely did not believe that Christianity could be the one true faith. I had that picked out from the beginning as something I profoundly disagreed with.

Which is why it was the last religion I investigated. The actual truth was that I didn't know very much about it. I had, like many atheists do, a lot of things picked out of the bible which made me believe I could just dismiss it outright. It turned out though when I actually really read the bible that the understanding I thought I had was incredibly superficial (and self-deceiving). I had tried to read it before, but there was always veil there that prevented me from really understanding it. This time though that veil was taken away and everything became alive to me. The reason for this was that what I was reading was corresponding to those clues that God had given me about Himself that I had mentioned earlier. God had reinforced certain ideas and principles about Himself to me, which didn't really make any sense at the time (and indeed drove me crazy trying to figure out what He meant), but suddenly the meaning was unlocked and made crystal clear through what I was reading in scripture.

Because of that, I started to develop a simple faith in what I was reading. On that basis I put some faith in the bible as being at least potentially accurate, and I decided to give my life to Jesus Christ. That's when God showed me that is who He is. When I gave my heart over to Him, He supernaturally transformed me, and He gave me a new life free of anxiety, addiction and depression. He exchanged those things for peace and love and joy. Where there was darkness before, He had brought light.

So, that's my testimony. When you ask why didn't God reveal Himself to you at that time, a few things come to mind. The first is that everything is done in His timing. God has a plan, much bigger than our plans, and I believe that there were many things God wanted to show me before He brought me to Christianity. He wanted me to experience what I did so that when I became a Christian, I would be more effective in communicating with others who are seekers like I was. So that I would be able to relate to them better than someone who grew up in the faith could have. It could be the same for you, that God has had many things to teach you, to give a certain ministry to others, and for your own understanding.

Second, although you are a non-believer, you seem to have a genuine desire to know the truth, and to know, if there is a God, who He is, and what He wants from you. I believe God has placed that desire into your heart so that it would lead you to find Him, as He did in mine. I believe that you're asking me this question for a reason, and that reason is that God is reaching out to you. I would suggest to you that you pray to God and invite Him into your life, and ask Him to forgive your sins. Part of the Lords prayer is "Your will be done, your Kingdom come". Tell God, if this is so, that you're willing to surrender your will for His will in your life. I have prayed that God would hear your prayer and lead you to Him. I also recommend that you read the Gospel of John.

You're right, that from your perspective there may be no reason why you should believe one religion is any better than the other. I shared that view for all of the years I was searching. I can give you a lot of good reasons why Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, but only God can change your heart.

What God doesn't expect is that you are going to figure Him out. Only He could reveal the truth to you. What He does do is give you opportunities in life to get closer to Him. They could be, for instance, situations that test your moral fabric. "What does he do when no one else is looking?" "How does he treat people when he has nothing to gain?". It's how you live your life that is proof of what is in your heart, and that is what God is interested in. I think that is what determines how close to Him you will get. What scripture guarantees though, is that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. That you would have the desire to do that is a gift from above.

In regards to your forest question, God speaks to us in many different ways. A person doesn't need language to understand that there is a higher power. In Romans 1:18-21 it speaks to the fact that God gives a general revelation through His creation of His power and Godhead. How could this man learn about who God is? Well, no one is unreachable on this planet. God could lead him out, or lead someone in. He could give the man dreams and visions.

So I hope that is a satisfactory answer. I couldn't tell you precisely why God hasn't reached out to you before, but what I feel is that He is reaching out to you now. The question is, will you answer His call?

God bless you,

Joshua

>> ^PalmliX

I would not pray what you have suggested.

You're unwilling to do what you accuse me and other Christians of being unwilling to do. That's called hypocrisy.

For one, I do not need a lord or savior.

You don't know whether you need a Lord and Savior, or not.

Two, the god that you believe in should know exactly what it would take to prove its existence and unless those rigorous conditions are met, I will maintain my doubt.

Romans 1:18-21

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Scripture says God has already given you sufficient evidence of His existence, but you suppress that truth and that you're without any excuse, and I believe scripture.

Personal revelation, whether singular or continuous, is not, for me, a good measure of whether or not I should believe something.

Is it possible that God could reveal Himself to you in such a way that you could know it for certain?

That kind of prayer is not meaningful investigation

Actually, it is. According to scripture, that is the only kind of investigation that will yield any results. Neither does it cost you anything. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. If I am wrong, nothing will happen. If I am right, you will come to know the truth. That you're unwilling to take a minute out of your time to do that speaks volumes about your true position.

I do not need a lord or savior

Demonstrable, reproducible, externally verifiable, logically sound, and consistency with what we can/do know about reality are, among others, the basis of what it takes for me to believe something. The god of the bible, as well as all supernatural claims, are none of those

That kind of prayer is not meaningful investigation

You make plenty of claims. You're fooling yourself if you believe that you are at all neutral on this subject. You have a calculated neutrality, merely to justify your skepticism rather than a true neutrality. If you were truly neutral you would be open to the truth. A true agnostic neither believes *nor* disbelieves.

If you were truly agnostic, you couldn’t have had a claim that would have been falsified since, as an agnostic, you would admitted that you do not know.

I was a naturalistic materialist. When God revealed Himself to me, I found out that everything I knew (or thought I knew) was in some way, wrong. Can you personally conceive of that?

>> ^IAmTheBlurr