@dag and @lucky760

Don't be fooled by the studies saying circumcision prevents the transmission of HIV etc. Several factors render those studies' results doubtful and/or moot. For one, many of them concern 3rd world countries where simple hygiene is still an issue (e.g. Kenya). The odds ratios are very low. I would also add (with reserves though) that cultural bias may play a role in some of those studies (look at the names).

Most doctors and doctor associations disprove of neonatal circumcision btw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_analysis_of_circumcision.

But even if circumcision were proven to drastically reduce the transmission of STDs and/or penile cancer, I would still be against it. How many kids have sex when they're babies? Can't they be given the choice when they reach their teens? As for penile cancer, it tends to develop in old age (60 and on), so plenty of time for a "preventive" chop if one chooses to do so to one's own body.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

I think it could be that STDs have evolved quicker than us. Therefore we use culture as a way to beat their faster microbial evolution. The same goes for dietary laws. There were probably pretty good reasons for not eating shellfish, if you lived in the desert without refrigeration. >> ^notarobot:

I've never understood the argument that a normal body part, found on pretty much every mammal species on earth, evolved over millions and millions of years is flawed.

>> ^ChaosEngine:

Did you even read the post? Here, I'll highlight it to help you.
>> ^smooman:
>> ^ChaosEngine:
Seriously what kind of insano would get married to someone without having sex with them first? Would you buy a car with taking for a test drive? I'm not even slightly joking here. And I'm not being sexist either, both partners need to know. Nor am I saying it's the end of the relationship if it doesn't work, but if you're committing to a lifelong relationship, you should go into eyes open.
And as for the whole "fornication is a sin" concept, we need to drop that crap. Unprotected sex is just idiocy, but if two consenting adults want to have casual safe sex, it's up to them. Honestly, we load all these expectations onto losing your virginity; "it should be special", "it should be with someone you love", blah blah. Let's face it, it's usually pretty unspectacular and awkward. These attitudes made sense when we didn't have birth control or protection from STDs but these days they're just a holdover from a time when you didn't want to end up diseased or stuck with a kid you didn't want.

women are cars now?

FFS, why is this so hard to understand? The puritanical attitude to sex before marriage is outdated and pointless. If you are making a lifelong commitment to be with someone, you should know about as many aspects of your relationship beforehand as you can. Actually forget sex, I wouldn't marry anyone with living with them for at least a year or two.


i did read your post. its not hard to understand. abstinence before marriage is outdated for sure (the institution of marriage is really recent, while throughout history laying with someone typically served as an act of marriage) but pointless? perhaps to you, but to each their own. to me? sex is sex. thats it. what my grievance is, is with the tired and utterly absurd "car test drive" analogy. its laughable on its face, and anyone who persists with it is just plain silly. women arent cars. sex isnt driving. theyre not even remotely comparable, except for humorous anecdotes exclusively.

its clear that you want to know every single detail you can about your future spouse before committing, and thats fine, that works for you. but i dont know if you knew this.......but we're not all you. some of us prefer the method of discovery. is it smart and recommended to live with someone at the very least for a little bit before you decide if this is someone you want to be with the rest of your life? absolutely. is it mandatory for a successful relationship? absolutely not. is it smart and recommended to have a physically intimate relationship with someone you are courting? depends, but usually ya. is it mandatory in order to have a healthy sex life and a lasting marriage? absolutely not

sidenote: love is not a feeling, it is not an emotion. it is action and commitment. if you want to know every possible detail about the relationship you have with someone before committing to them, if it works for you great! but i feel i need to remind you: we are not you. I would argue that whether you want to know all the details you possibly can, or if you know enough to be pretty sure, in either case if you both are committed to each other then who cares if youve had sex before marriage or waited till after.

Did you even read the post? Here, I'll highlight it to help you.
>> ^smooman:

>> ^ChaosEngine:
Seriously what kind of insano would get married to someone without having sex with them first? Would you buy a car with taking for a test drive? I'm not even slightly joking here. And I'm not being sexist either, both partners need to know. Nor am I saying it's the end of the relationship if it doesn't work, but if you're committing to a lifelong relationship, you should go into eyes open.
And as for the whole "fornication is a sin" concept, we need to drop that crap. Unprotected sex is just idiocy, but if two consenting adults want to have casual safe sex, it's up to them. Honestly, we load all these expectations onto losing your virginity; "it should be special", "it should be with someone you love", blah blah. Let's face it, it's usually pretty unspectacular and awkward. These attitudes made sense when we didn't have birth control or protection from STDs but these days they're just a holdover from a time when you didn't want to end up diseased or stuck with a kid you didn't want.

women are cars now?



FFS, why is this so hard to understand? The puritanical attitude to sex before marriage is outdated and pointless. If you are making a lifelong commitment to be with someone, you should know about as many aspects of your relationship beforehand as you can. Actually forget sex, I wouldn't marry anyone with living with them for at least a year or two.

>> ^ChaosEngine:

Seriously what kind of insano would get married to someone without having sex with them first? Would you buy a car with taking for a test drive? I'm not even slightly joking here. And I'm not being sexist either, both partners need to know. Nor am I saying it's the end of the relationship if it doesn't work, but if you're committing to a lifelong relationship, you should go into eyes open.
And as for the whole "fornication is a sin" concept, we need to drop that crap. Unprotected sex is just idiocy, but if two consenting adults want to have casual safe sex, it's up to them. Honestly, we load all these expectations onto losing your virginity; "it should be special", "it should be with someone you love", blah blah. Let's face it, it's usually pretty unspectacular and awkward. These attitudes made sense when we didn't have birth control or protection from STDs but these days they're just a holdover from a time when you didn't want to end up diseased or stuck with a kid you didn't want.


women are cars now?

Sorry, I didn't make my point right. We hadn't worked out the bad sex yet. It was the first year of our marriage that sex went from really bad, so-so, good, then, eventually, really good.

>> ^ChaosEngine:
>> ^Lawdeedaw:
>> ^ChaosEngine:
Seriously what kind of insano would get married to someone without having sex with them first? Would you buy a car with taking for a test drive? I'm not even slightly joking here. And I'm not being sexist either, both partners need to know. Nor am I saying it's the end of the relationship if it doesn't work, but if you're committing to a lifelong relationship, you should go into eyes open.
And as for the whole "fornication is a sin" concept, we need to drop that crap. Unprotected sex is just idiocy, but if two consenting adults want to have casual safe sex, it's up to them. Honestly, we load all these expectations onto losing your virginity; "it should be special", "it should be with someone you love", blah blah. Let's face it, it's usually pretty unspectacular and awkward. These attitudes made sense when we didn't have birth control or protection from STDs but these days they're just a holdover from a time when you didn't want to end up diseased or stuck with a kid you didn't want.

My wife and I had bad sex at the start (Meaning the first year or more.) If we based love on this we'd have been...fucked... Love isn't a test drive Chaos, it is the gasoline. Now? Now we have great, mind-bending sex. It just took a long time to learn each other.

which is exactly why you shouldn't wait 'til marriage. You had an issue, you worked through it and now you're good. But that should be worked out before getting married. Hell, I think you should have to prove you've been going out at least 5 years (and living together for at least 3) before you're allowed to get married. Would reduce the divorce rate.

>> ^Lawdeedaw:

>> ^ChaosEngine:
Seriously what kind of insano would get married to someone without having sex with them first? Would you buy a car with taking for a test drive? I'm not even slightly joking here. And I'm not being sexist either, both partners need to know. Nor am I saying it's the end of the relationship if it doesn't work, but if you're committing to a lifelong relationship, you should go into eyes open.
And as for the whole "fornication is a sin" concept, we need to drop that crap. Unprotected sex is just idiocy, but if two consenting adults want to have casual safe sex, it's up to them. Honestly, we load all these expectations onto losing your virginity; "it should be special", "it should be with someone you love", blah blah. Let's face it, it's usually pretty unspectacular and awkward. These attitudes made sense when we didn't have birth control or protection from STDs but these days they're just a holdover from a time when you didn't want to end up diseased or stuck with a kid you didn't want.

My wife and I had bad sex at the start (Meaning the first year or more.) If we based love on this we'd have been...fucked... Love isn't a test drive Chaos, it is the gasoline. Now? Now we have great, mind-bending sex. It just took a long time to learn each other.


which is exactly why you shouldn't wait 'til marriage. You had an issue, you worked through it and now you're good. But that should be worked out before getting married. Hell, I think you should have to prove you've been going out at least 5 years (and living together for at least 3) before you're allowed to get married. Would reduce the divorce rate.

>> ^ChaosEngine:
Seriously what kind of insano would get married to someone without having sex with them first? Would you buy a car with taking for a test drive? I'm not even slightly joking here. And I'm not being sexist either, both partners need to know. Nor am I saying it's the end of the relationship if it doesn't work, but if you're committing to a lifelong relationship, you should go into eyes open.
And as for the whole "fornication is a sin" concept, we need to drop that crap. Unprotected sex is just idiocy, but if two consenting adults want to have casual safe sex, it's up to them. Honestly, we load all these expectations onto losing your virginity; "it should be special", "it should be with someone you love", blah blah. Let's face it, it's usually pretty unspectacular and awkward. These attitudes made sense when we didn't have birth control or protection from STDs but these days they're just a holdover from a time when you didn't want to end up diseased or stuck with a kid you didn't want.


My wife and I had bad sex at the start (Meaning the first year or more.) If we based love on this we'd have been...fucked... Love isn't a test drive Chaos, it is the gasoline. Now? Now we have great, mind-bending sex. It just took a long time to learn each other.

Seriously what kind of insano would get married to someone without having sex with them first? Would you buy a car with taking for a test drive? I'm not even slightly joking here. And I'm not being sexist either, both partners need to know. Nor am I saying it's the end of the relationship if it doesn't work, but if you're committing to a lifelong relationship, you should go into eyes open.

And as for the whole "fornication is a sin" concept, we need to drop that crap. Unprotected sex is just idiocy, but if two consenting adults want to have casual safe sex, it's up to them. Honestly, we load all these expectations onto losing your virginity; "it should be special", "it should be with someone you love", blah blah. Let's face it, it's usually pretty unspectacular and awkward. These attitudes made sense when we didn't have birth control or protection from STDs but these days they're just a holdover from a time when you didn't want to end up diseased or stuck with a kid you didn't want.

>> ^shinyblurry:
Teen pregnancy and STD rates are out of control.


Yes, in states where they preach abstinence-only sex-ed. Bit ironic, that.

Them pants are chock full of crazy!
>> ^shinyblurry:

Abstinence until marriage is a good thing, for one it gets rid of STDs and accidental pregnancies. Teen pregnancy and STD rates are out of control. No one makes good decisions when they're that age, especially not about sex.
Second, fornication is just plainly a sin, and for the reason that sex is a spiritual marriage between two people. You are spiritually joined to whomever you have sex with, forever.
The commentary here is what is disturbing..maybe you reprobates can't imagine giving up your carnal lusts because its what you're living for, but that lifestyle is meaningless, sad and no better than what animals do.

The problem with abstinence only education is that if kids fall off the band wagon (which they do... though not all) then they're much more at risk of teen pregnancy or contracting diseases. You said it yourself: "No one makes good decisions when they're that age, especially not about sex." Abstinence-only education means that when they do make a bad decision the results are worse.>> ^shinyblurry:

Abstinence until marriage is a good thing, for one it gets rid of STDs and accidental pregnancies. Teen pregnancy and STD rates are out of control. No one makes good decisions when they're that age, especially not about sex.
Second, fornication is just plainly a sin, and for the reason that sex is a spiritual marriage between two people. You are spiritually joined to whomever you have sex with, forever.
The commentary here is what is disturbing..maybe you reprobates can't imagine giving up your carnal lusts because its what you're living for, but that lifestyle is meaningless, sad and no better than what animals do.

Abstinence until marriage is a good thing, for one it gets rid of STDs and accidental pregnancies. Teen pregnancy and STD rates are out of control. No one makes good decisions when they're that age, especially not about sex.

Second, fornication is just plainly a sin, and for the reason that sex is a spiritual marriage between two people. You are spiritually joined to whomever you have sex with, forever.

The commentary here is what is disturbing..maybe you reprobates can't imagine giving up your carnal lusts because its what you're living for, but that lifestyle is meaningless, sad and no better than what animals do.

>> ^Stormsinger:
Voodoo, Islam, Christianity, Judaism...just more of the same shit, different day. All great ways to provide the cleric class with a comfy living.


But you must note that some are crazier versions than others. For example, AIDS is worse than Herpes. Both are STDs but I am less concerned of one versus the other. Or take guns... varying levels of guns... Yes, those are loose comparisons, but the point still remains. Everything is based on levels.

In fact, there are quite insane atheists who believe in their opinions so much that it creates irrational hatred.

@SDGundamX "no permanent damage to [its] function"

Circumcision reduces sexual pleasure and cutting off ears reduces our hearing ability. Both sometimes have complications.

I guess, though, that it's better for society if the lower classes enjoy sex less and spread less STDs (seems likely circumcision inversely correlates with education level). So I've changed my mind.